Saryn the Destroyer

[Hecking_Birb]

Saryn is just too damn good at damage. I don't even need to explain why, anyone who's run ESO or any defense mission has inevitably found a Saryn, and she ALWAYS gets the most damage. Why? Because she's got two nukes, and one scales infinitely. She strips armor, she halves health, she hurts everything on the map, there's not even a reason for her to be able to generate energy or be tanky, since she's so energy efficient and everything's dead before she even sees it. Solution? Her spores should spread as they do, but do no damage by themselves. Then, when her fourth is activated, all spores should deal damage based on how much health every enemy afflicted has (a percentage of that health, to be clear). It gets calculated, and then distributed. Spores themselves should retain some form of debuffing, but their actual damage should be expensive and require some sort of buildup, rather than a constant flood. The spores should also spread slower, so as to, again, decrease the flow of damage to a burst. That way, her superb damage is retained, but it's no longer flawless.

Please, if you have criticisms, do tell, because I refuse to play Saryn so much that I'm no expert. I do firmly believe that SOMETHING should be done though, and that hill I will die on.

[Pizzarugi]

Or just put a hard cap on the spores' damage and knock the damage of her 4 down further (or require that no enemies are under its effect before it can be cast again) so player's aren't constantly spamming it and breezing through missions.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[Hecking_Birb]

17 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Or just put a hard cap on the spores' damage and knock the damage of her 4 down further (or require that no enemies are under its effect before it can be cast again) so player's aren't constantly spamming it and breezing through missions.

Infinitely scaling damage IS important, but how easily she deals it is a problem. A hard cap is not the answer, because then she just can't do well at higher levels, but still cheeses lower level missions. I do like your idea on her 4, though.

[Guest]

I have outdpsed Saryn and 2 Mesas as a Khora on Sortie 3. Saryn actually requires the team to accommodate her and help her out to achieve unreal DPS. The shape and size of the map also affects this heavily.

As a Saryn, you can't just Spore and Miasma. You have to keep her 3 up and shoot spored enemies or you aren't doing enough damage.

ESO is a map type that is optimised for Saryn to spread her spores and gain damage quickly. Use her in something like Earth Defense and watch her struggle to even kill.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Guest

[Hecking_Birb]

5 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I have outdpsed Saryn and 2 Mesas as a Khora on Sortie 3. Saryn actually requires the team to accommodate her and help her out to achieve unreal DPS. The shape and size of the map also affects this heavily.

As a Saryn, you can't just Spore and Miasma. You have to keep her 3 up and shoot spored enemies or you aren't doing enough damage.

ESO is a map type that is optimised for Saryn to spread her spores and gain damage quickly. Use her in something like Earth Defense and watch her struggle to even kill.

Valid points here, but I'd like to see what you recommend for the fact that she's still absolutely unreal in a fair few cases. Hydron and ESO are definitely the two most notable cases, and not EVERYWHERE supports her, but the places that do are absolutely ruined by how great she is in them. It's also not really that hard for a Saryn to do all that damage effectively by herself. A Trinity helps, and perhaps someone to make sure the enemies do spread the spores, but besides that, she's very independent.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Hecking_Birb said:

Valid points here, but I'd like to see what you recommend for the fact that she's still absolutely unreal in a fair few cases. Hydron and ESO are definitely the two most notable cases, and not EVERYWHERE supports her, but the places that do are absolutely ruined by how great she is in them. It's also not really that hard for a Saryn to do all that damage effectively by herself. A Trinity helps, and perhaps someone to make sure the enemies do spread the spores, but besides that, she's very independent.

So we also nerf Ivara because she is good at spy and absolutely unreal at it compared to the other competitors like Loki and Limbo? Spy must be so ruined by Ivara hacking all the vaults since Ivara only toggles on and off her augmented 3. She is completely independent and the other players are worthless.

So Frost, Limbo and Gara all have to be made lousier as they are very strong at point defense? Mobile Defense, Excavation and Defense must be so bad to play now that these exist and just use one or two casts of skills. Outside of nullies what can touch the defense objective before you can shoot them?

Nerf Rhino, Oberon and Inaros because Arbitration? Arbitration must be so lame and easy because these frames just refuse to die. What so unindependent about these frames?

Hit Chroma and Volt with nerf bat because Eidolons? Better still ban operator because Tridolon? Because Operator is the only thing able to harm the shield so it is infinitely more effective than Warframes and is too strong for Tridolon. 

There is perfectly nothing wrong with a frame being specialised for X game mode or able to do it alone because they won't be useful for other purposes. I mean, you can bring Chroma to spy or Saryn to Tridolon and watch them do jack.

If you are a physics professor who won a nobel prize, do you think it is alright for the University to cut your pay and demote you because you are too good at physics? Especially when you know nuts about biology or chemistry? Because you seem to be saying it's fine to do so.

[000l000]

Il y a 7 heures, Hecking_Birb a dit :

Saryn is just too damn good at damage. I don't even need to explain why, anyone who's run ESO or any defense mission has inevitably found a Saryn, and she ALWAYS gets the most damage.

Mag, Volt, Gara and some other frames could argue with that. Viral and Corrosive are a deadly combination but that's not necessarily the best frame depending on who you're facing of and which level you're playing at.

Best scaling in the entire game is Gara's 2nd, i've done the 40 survival waves challenge while just literally walking into level 160 enemies. Saryn shines in ESO because the way enemies are spawning helps with her spores. When you have to recast them every minute it's not as powerful as it seems.

[AzureTerra]

As long as your with 50m of whoever is dealing the damage, who cares gets "top damage" or "most kills" 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

Saryn can’t take as much of what she dishes out in damage 

[NotDaijoubu]

I understand why you choose not to play Saryn, but imo, you won't be able to understand how good and engaging it feels to play her at max potential, nor the nuances of her kit. Think Limbo - the people who don't play Limbo are the ones who have trouble with even a good one in the party. I used to dislike Saryn too, but after playing her, I can really appreciate her.

Sure, some people may still not like her stupidly powerful offense and some people may be the type that just spams 1 and 4 all day, but maximizing her damage and area of control requires a little bit more than 1/4 at random intervals. Saryn is an odd case: if you do too much damage with your spores, they end up killing targets before you can spread them and you're back to 0. You can be lazy and recast spores again and again but that reduces your damage significantly. The need to manage spore count is interesting and a lot more engaging than say World on Fire.

You can argue a slight nerf to Saryn's damage and scaling would do good but I disagree. If Saryn can still scale infinitely, the end results are the same regardless whether her spores start with 10 damage or 1000 damage: dead enemies. What a nerf would do is just draw out the inevitable damage build up: more time building up = less fun. If her abilities have fixed scaling, then we get Ember 2.0.

I think Saryn is far from perfect and the disparity between her capability and other frames shows a fault in being a bit too strong for the meta. Still, too powerful is much better than too weak because Saryn checks two important boxes and that's good enough for me: Is the frame fun? Yes. Is the frame useful? Yes. 

 

[Sloan441]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)BloodyXSavageX said:

Saryn can’t take as much of what she dishes out in damage 

No, she isn't hugely durable. 

However, if I'm playing with one and I'm playing a 'frame that can offer some degree of support, I'm going to do it. Saryn's offense is unquestionable and helping her what she does so well is a net win for the team. 

Gara is a 'frame very capable herself of doing considerable damage. However, it's dependent on various tactical factors and Saryn just has to be up and active. Just the other day I was in a survival with a Saryn while playing Gara and there was no reason not to support Saryn with Splinter Storm. This increases her survivability tremendously, particularly if Saryn has Regenerative Molt. Gara is far more durable than Saryn and helping Saryn play to her strength costs Gara little and helps everyone involved a lot. 

I've seen well played Khoras exceed Saryns in ESO in absolute damage output. However, it's a lot of work for Khora and the team would be better off if they worked together and not at cross purposes. Khora can directly support Saryn with Venari and is very good at concentrating enemies for Miasma/Spore interactions and spreading spores with Whipclaw. 

I don't have a problem with Saryn doing what Saryn does. If I'm on a team with one, I try to help Saryn do what she does. It's better for all concerned. 

[Pizzarugi]

52 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

No, she isn't hugely durable. 

However, if I'm playing with one and I'm playing a 'frame that can offer some degree of support, I'm going to do it. Saryn's offense is unquestionable and helping her what she does so well is a net win for the team. 

Gara is a 'frame very capable herself of doing considerable damage. However, it's dependent on various tactical factors and Saryn just has to be up and active. Just the other day I was in a survival with a Saryn while playing Gara and there was no reason not to support Saryn with Splinter Storm. This increases her survivability tremendously, particularly if Saryn has Regenerative Molt. Gara is far more durable than Saryn and helping Saryn play to her strength costs Gara little and helps everyone involved a lot. 

I've seen well played Khoras exceed Saryns in ESO in absolute damage output. However, it's a lot of work for Khora and the team would be better off if they worked together and not at cross purposes. Khora can directly support Saryn with Venari and is very good at concentrating enemies for Miasma/Spore interactions and spreading spores with Whipclaw. 

I don't have a problem with Saryn doing what Saryn does. If I'm on a team with one, I try to help Saryn do what she does. It's better for all concerned. 

The problem here is not everyone plays support, and even then, they don't want to have their game trivialized by having one player spamming 4 and do all the work for them. And seeing as the strongest difficulty is found in sortie 3 missions, which are only good to run every 24 hours, this means cheesing every single mission in the game. I don't play this game just to stand around while someone uses 1 ability to do what a full team combined should be doing, regardless if I'm playing Gara, Nekros, Loki, Trinity, or anything that doesn't delete screens. This isn't a walking simulator, this a team horde shooter, and only one person is needed to do everything.

DE either needs to give players a proper challenging endgame that doesn't require running an endless mission for over an hour just to get the same rewards, or nerfs need to happen. Seeing as they're hellbent on keeping everything on the starchart, I think they're more likely to give us nerfs long before a proper endgame is made.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

this post is a bit dumb tbh.....who cares who gets most % damage lol . I give you the answer for you : go play solo so you can stop cry about it

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

this post is a bit dumb tbh.....who cares who gets most % damage lol . I give you the answer for you : go play solo so you can stop cry about it

The game's even more laughably easy and boring, because the enemy spawns are next to nonexistent in solo. Try again.

I shouldn't expect honesty from a press-4-to-win noob who needs players to act as spawn-slaves for enemies.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[Basalto]

Saryn's issue comes from a few things:

• Viral procs halve (half?) enemy health, which is extremely useful nearly anywhere in the game, specially against the worst faction in the game, the Grineer, which bring the second point, that being
• corrosive combats the armor scaling that just is never removed from the game, and spores spread like the black plague in medieval Europe, and therefore
• both corrosive and viral combined make for the perfect killer against nearly any faction

Saryn is basically mandatory to combat bad game design. It's a vicious cycle where you need a broken frame to combat a broken game, and in turn it breeds the idea that this is the whole point of the game. Personally, my only issue with her comes from how she's from the Fantastic Four of the game, but has three damage types at her work, instead of just toxin. It's pathetic to see Ember focusing solely on heat, Frost focusing solely on cold and Volt focusing solely on shock, while Saryn has corrosive, viral and toxin all in the same place. Imagine if Ember had radiation and blast (hell, she might have blast, I never actually noticed), or Frost had magnetic and blast, or Volt had magnetic and radiation? She's both too good for her own good and good enough for the current state of the game, and thus the issue people usually see with Saryn is the issue I see in the game itself. Fix the game and Saryn fixes herself.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

The game's even more laughably easy and boring, because the enemy spawns are next to nonexistent in solo. Try again.

I shouldn't expect honesty from a press-4-to-win noob who needs players to act as spawn-slaves for enemies.

so nerf everything because this way i can play my useless titania/ atlas/wukong/ revenant  and other frames in every mission wihtout being helpful. One thing, you dont know how i play and you tell me i am a press 4 to win guy....i honestly do not know how to answer because it just makes me laugh lol

[Basalto]

Just now, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

so nerf everything because this way i can play my useless titania/ atlas/wukong/ revenant  and other frames in every mission wihtout being helpful. One thing, you dont know how i play and you tell me i am a press 4 to win guy....i honestly do not know how to answer because it just makes me laugh lol

Wukong is hardly useless. He's just a one-trick pony that is perfect at what he does. Ever tanked a whole sortie's third mission by simply existing with any other frame? Oberon's health regen doesn't cut it, Rhino's iron skin is weak, Nezha's halo has damage bleeding through it, and even Inaros has an end to his 1234567890 health. Wukong with a rage build is literally immortal.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Just because stuff is powerful does not mean it needs to be nerfed to the level of the weak frames so people can be happy about damage percents and what not. Put yourself in the shoes of a veteran like myself who has put over 2000 hours into the game and worked hard to get what they have. If all of that was made pointless by a wave of nerfs to everything that kills starchart level enemies "To easily" (They are weak anyway and the game does not start until level 120+...). What needs to happen is veterans need their own place to play and get rewarded better then if they do in low level content leading to complaints about OP frames and weapons by new players. Why cant people understand that asking for everything to be completely balanced in a Power fantasy PvE game is ridiculous and think about how they would feel if they were the ones who had worked the way up to that level of power they to would be revolting against the newbies?

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Just because stuff is powerful does not mean it needs to be nerfed to the level of the weak frames so people can be happy about damage percents and what not. Put yourself in the shoes of a veteran like myself who has put over 2000 hours into the game and worked hard to get what they have. If all of that was made pointless by a wave of nerfs to everything that kills starchart level enemies "To easily" (They are weak anyway and the game does not start until level 120+...). What needs to happen is veterans need their own place to play and get rewarded better then if they do in low level content leading to complaints about OP frames and weapons by new players. Why cant people understand that asking for everything to be completely balanced in a Power fantasy PvE game is ridiculous and think about how they would feel if they were the ones who had worked the way up to that level of power they to would be revolting against the newbies?

finally an intelligent reply to the topic. well said.

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

so nerf everything because this way i can play my useless titania/ atlas/wukong/ revenant  and other frames in every mission wihtout being helpful. One thing, you dont know how i play and you tell me i am a press 4 to win guy....i honestly do not know how to answer because it just makes me laugh lol

Another typical strawman response to wanting to nerf broken frames.

You're comparing frames that aren't the problem to ones that are. Lemme know when Titania/Atlas/Wukong can kill everything 50m+ away, through walls, with just one cast.

[(PSN)maso_sage-mode]

4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Another typical strawman response to wanting to nerf broken frames.

You're comparing frames that aren't the problem to ones that are. Lemme know when Titania/Atlas/Wukong can kill everything 50m+ away, through walls, with just one cast.

i suggest you to read what the last guy posted here, he made a good point. Continue to provoke me if you like but you wont get anything back in return. I just expected  something different from a guy who is founder. You wont get any further reply from me as its not worth the time.

Edited March 31, 2019 by (PS4)maso_sage-mode

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

1 minute ago, (PS4)maso_sage-mode said:

 finally an intelligent reply to the topic. well said.

I'm a 5 year veteran and I have been around for a lot of things being nerfed unrightfully because of outcry from new players (AKA EMBER...) and it gets old having to explain to people that some stuff will be far more powerful. It's just the reality of a game like Warframe and if they dont allow players to feel like Demigods by the time they have reached endgame they would lose players just as quickly as Anthem is now. It is okay to have frames and weapons that are massive outliers compared to their peers and some people just cannot accept that. Their is a risk to going into public missions of ending up with a seasoned veteran who will outkill most new players regardless of the gear they have, it does not have to even be top tier so regardless feathers will be rustled. I have outkilled Embers with Pre rework Hydroid on hydron with just a melee weapon and not using His puddle at all as a solid example, new players will be bad compared to a veteran no matter how you slice it, and that's okay because the point of the game is to learn and improve.

[Basalto]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I'm a 5 year veteran and I have been around for a lot of things being nerfed unrightfully because of outcry from new players (AKA EMBER...) and it gets old having to explain to people that some stuff will be far more powerful. It's just the reality of a game like Warframe and if they dont allow players to feel like Demigods by the time they have reached endgame they would lose players just as quickly as Anthem is now. It is okay to have frames and weapons that are massive outliers compared to their peers and some people just cannot accept that. Their is a risk to going into public missions of ending up with a seasoned veteran who will outkill most new players regardless of the gear they have, it does not have to even be top tier so regardless feathers will be rustled. I have outkilled Embers with Pre rework Hydroid on hydron with just a melee weapon and not using His puddle at all as a solid example, new players will be bad compared to a veteran no matter how you slice it, and that's okay because the point of the game is to learn and improve.

Warframe (and consequently DE) poorly specifies what's the "good" stuff and what's the stuff that's just there to help you go forward. For example, why does Tiberon Prime crush Burston Prime, despite the latter only being two MRs below? Why is the Hek MR 4, but also one of the most recommended weapons of the whole game? The Atomos is a death machine, but MR 5. The list goes on, and the point will be that DE wants Warframe to have the stats of an RPG game without actually using these stats the way they were meant to be used.

[Pizzarugi]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

(They are weak anyway and the game does not start until level 120+...)

Playing an endless mission for over an hour just to get enemies that have a remote chance of killing you or not getting 1shot by a radial nuke, getting the same rewards as you did 40 minutes prior, does not count as a proper game "starting". There is literally no reason to play missions for that incredible length of time when you don't get anything special out of doing so, unless you want to get that one hard-to-get C rotation reward without constantly extracting and starting over.

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

What needs to happen is veterans need their own place to play and get rewarded better then if they do in low level content leading to complaints about OP frames and weapons by new players.

DE has been doing everything in their power to limit the game to the star chart, with absolutely nothing being better or more challenging since they gave us sorties. Eidolon hunts are a joke, orb heists are a joke, and sorties are only good to run once every 24 hours. Most if not all of your time spent playing this game is going to be normal missions or slightly-buffed "event" versions. The chances of us getting a proper endgame that justifies needing ridiculously overpowered nuke frames are slim to none. You would think that would've been a high priority project years ago.

If you've been playing the game for as long as you say you have, you'd know this. 😛

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Why cant people understand that asking for everything to be completely balanced in a Power fantasy PvE game is ridiculous and think about how they would feel if they were the ones who had worked the way up to that level of power they to would be revolting against the newbies?

"Power fantasy" is not an excuse to leave the game in such a state that you can just beat the game by pressing 1 single button and then feel a disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. There's plenty of ways to make a game feel like a power fantasy without having an "I win!" button.

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I'm a 5 year veteran and I have been around for a lot of things being nerfed unrightfully because of outcry from new players (AKA EMBER...) and it gets old having to explain to people that some stuff will be far more powerful.

Ember got nerfed, because she used to be the pinnacle press-4-to-win poster child. Channeled AoE that goes through walls which you don't need to keep spamming to use? The game has turned from "power fantasy" to walking simulator. Now she can only win by getting close enough to enemies that they can have a chance to shoot her before they get incinerated.

Now it's Saryn's turn. Mesa afterwards.

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

It's just the reality of a game like Warframe and if they dont allow players to feel like Demigods by the time they have reached endgame they would lose players just as quickly as Anthem is now.

It's not a matter of players leaving because they don't feel like gods, that's an absurd claim. Players leave, because the game is grindy as hell, which is necessary to artificially inflate the game's life. However, once you've reached "endgame" (refer back to what I said earlier about it not existing) and done everything the game has to keep you leveling and grinding, there's nothing else for you to do, so you get bored and quit.

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

It is okay to have frames and weapons that are massive outliers compared to their peers and some people just cannot accept that. Their is a risk to going into public missions of ending up with a seasoned veteran who will outkill most new players regardless of the gear they have, it does not have to even be top tier so regardless feathers will be rustled.

No. Wrong. That's a lazy excuse to justify broken mechanics existing in the game. We're literally talking about a frame that, with one push of a button, wipes out everything 50m+ around them through walls, in a game where the devs are doing everything to keep the game's difficulty the same. It doesn't take a new player to know there's an extreme lack of balance, where you only need 1 single frame to do everything a full team can do with one push of a button.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, moostar95 said:

This is why when I go and level up weapons and gear in eso and see a saryn. I camp and leech as mag. spamming three while watching the exp comes in. They make me their spawner. I make them my free exp booster. Until de fixes the state of dmg in warframe. This is how I play with nukes now.

I guess you have a more mature way of dealing with those sorts of players. Me, I'd just leave the mission, block them (it's to help me identify who the cheeser is if I wind up with them again since there's no matchmaking blacklist) and raise a stink on the forums about horrible game balance. 😛

Know what I'd like to see? Orb Vallis ingame matchmaking applied to the rest of the game. If you're the host and select "solo", you boot everyone out of the team which you can freely switch back to public. If you're the client and select solo, you just leave and host a session of your own which you can then switch to public matchmaking. Saryn player joins my session? Go solo and then back to public to reset the team. Problem solved, everyone is happy.