1. insane damage attenuation as always. I was using incarnon Braton P and Furis with decent riven and correct element mods, still took ages to kill any boss

2. classic magnetic proc and nullifying AOE, rendering Arcane Persistence and ability useless, forcing players to use shield recharge/shield gating to survive

3. no filler enemies spawn, so don't count on self-revive, only Vasca Kavat may save you once if you're lucky, and companions sometimes just permanently died

4. Huge one-shotting AOE attack, only Vazarin void sling and rolling guard can save you

5. As I finally managed to the final Archwing fight stage, guess what? As soon as I skipped cutscene, my Archwing just got one-shotted and I didn't even have time to see any enemy spawn or what hit me, what a disgusting joke👎

I used Nokko, got pushed out of my 3 by the wall, died, cheeked it to a mushroom, got back in just in time for the wall to hit me again and then instadied.

It's specifically designed around countering mechanics Warframes have for survival. Like what is the expected use cases? Is it just a skill check or what? Why?

Not to mention all the other massive AoE nullification, just because it worked on Oraxia doesnt mean it's gonna work every time, especially when every boss rolls it out every 4 seconds.

I was quite sad that I couldn't build up damage and strength etc before hand through the mission and then take them on afterwards.

Alright, just going to give my thoughts on The Guilty fight having completed it. Only have one glyph, but considering it's gonna be the same song and dance mechanically speaking with the other frames, I'm not too fussed.

PRIME VANGUARD

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This fight is fine. All the frame bosses seem like they do what's on the tin. THAT IS NOT A PUN! I only really "struggled" (using that very loosely here) with Volt and Protea. I do feel like it can be very confusing at times with the amount of particle spam plus the other frames joining to do their abilities despite not being targetable. See the "Combat and Visual Clarity" section at the bottom for expansion on this.

Protea

Her invuln is something I don't understand. It's probably something to do with kit, but I just don't understand why it happens. Other than that, she's fine.

Volt

If killed fast enough, he is fine on his own. However, if he is killed early in the fight (I kept getting him round one) it makes the other rounds an absolute pain, especially when my second round was Mesa/Ember. Mesa would knock me down, while Ember is calling in her tactical drone strike, and then I get zip zapped by Volt never ending spam and boop dead. There's no counterplay to that (assuming that Mesa's knockdown is intended, I did report it as a bug though) even with 100% resist to knockdowns. His ability also seems to last an egregiously long time and I feel like there's no clear indication on where/when it's going to hit you. I get that it the beams rotate, but is the whole thing hitting me? Is it just the beams? Is the ground ouchie too? I don't know. There needs to be way more clarity with this ability since he uses it when he isn't on the battlefield, which can be the whole fight if he is downed first round.

His shield is also not fun. Like I get that he's using his kit and that's all well and good, but I had no idea about shooting the four corners to break it. Jumping above him can work, but I feel like this should be adjusted to either be more clear that you need to shoot those corners or just make the shield break over time if you shoot it normally. That or reduce the time he has it up considering it's also pretty long lasting.

Ember

Is fine. Her tactical drone strikes are annoying, but manageable. Her hitbox does seem a bit off. Sometimes when hitting her in the head, the game doesn't register me as hitting her at all. Nothing to really further add.

Mesa

As I posted in Bug Reports, she can knockdown through 100% resist with her disarm. Not sure if this is intended or not. It can be quite detrimental depending on other what else is happening when she does it. You can easily get one shot before you get a chance to respond. Which IF intended, there is still no counterplay to that. That would make a guaranteed fail state, which I don't think should be a thing nor do I think it's fair. I suppose if there was a way to predict it or more clarity to the animation and it was dodgeable then sure, but as far as I can tell it's just an instant cast bonk. I could be wrong and just bad, though.

Ash

Fine. Nothing really to add.

Trinity

Fine. Main target each round, easy enough to understand (the life of a support is roughie). I do think she needs a boss bar at the top for visual clarity.

Caliban

Overall he is fine. His spinny attack when paired with Volt sends him flying around the arena which feels REAL bad when you're just waiting for him to stop so you can kill him. Definitely think the speed could be tweaked here. His head hitbox also seems a bit small. 

The Magnetic Procs

Where does it come from? At this point, I don't know. I think Volt does it, but I really have no idea. PLEASE make it more understandable on where this proc comes from since it seems to be a staple of "difficult" content.

With that, I want to add my voice to the many about taking away abilities DOES NOT mean difficult. It means tedious and tedium has never made something hard nor worthwhile.

I want to further add a point here: This game prides itself on being better than its peers and has even made subtle jabs at them (I remember the Steve Anthem jabs). Taking away my Warframe abilities and making guns the main character of these fights makes me feel like I'm playing Destiny 2. If I wanted to play a game where guns where the main character, I'd have stuck with Destiny 2. Please let that give some perspective on why this design just feels awful for people who play this game INSTEAD of your peers games!

Overall Thoughts

The fight is, overall, manageable and fine once you get a feel for it. There are "feel bad" moments as I highlighted above, but it's not rage inducing. 

 

Phase 2 - The Sentient Things

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This phase seems like it's way harder than the other first or last.

Weakpoint hits are not easy to get. While I understand it's not supposed to be a free win, their spots should be bigger or there should be others added to them considering this is how we are going to do the most of our damage to them, especially with them having any kind of attenuation. 

Weakpoint hits are also made difficult by the wall spam. Now, I'm actually fine with the wall overall. Ive seen this mechanic in enough to be fully accustomed to it. The issue in this game is the safe area is FAR too small for the FoV we have in this game. Right now the safe spot is useless. There is simply not enough time to react and get to that area when you cannot always see the wall spawn. Again this is made worse by the limited FoV. If this were any other game, I'd do a fully zoom out where I could see all sides of the arena to actually see where it would be and position accordingly. I'm going to assume our FoV won't be changed, so with that I think the safe area size should be increased and possibly the speed should be slowed so reactions can be more proactive than reactive or just pure face tank.

The inability to react properly to the wall also brings in the issue of our main survivability in this mode, shieldgating. We are forced to shieldgate since, once again, mag procs are used to turn off our abilities and drain our energy. Can't rely on something that won't be there. With the adds plus the wall plus mag procs trying to shieldgate properly WHILE trying to aim for weakpoints just makes this whole section feel awful.

So overall, I feel like this section could use some tone down adjustments to make it more manageable.

Hunhullus

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This phase was probably the most chill out of the three, which I'm all for. It's a nice break the chaotic early fights. My only suggestion would be to make the weakpoint things on the body to be a bit more noticeable as they are hard to see when you're aim gliding. 

There's also a weird area behind the boss that pushes you around. I assume this is to keep you from going out of bounds, but I feel like the invis wall should be enough that way I'm not bouncing around like a pinball. 

Overall I don't have much to add about this section. It certainly let my heart rate come down abit after the first two phases.

Tauron Strike Usage

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When this mode was announced it was stated that it was designed with Tauron Strikes in mind. Assuming that to be true, I can certainly agree based on my own experience with using mine. It definitely solved a lot of things and I'm perfectly ok with that. If there was ever a place for the Strikes to be useful it should be superbosses. At the very least, it gives us a reason to actually care about them. I got mine specifically for this fight as I couldn't be asked beforehand.

My personal though it to leave them as this "solver of problems". 

Combat and Visual Clarity

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Going back to the Prime Vanguard fight visual clarity issues...

I had to turn my particle and effects completely off to be able to actually see where the frames were and what was going on. I feel like this is a situation where perma health bars over an enemies head would do WONDERS for visual clarity (think something like how WoW does it). It would 100% confirm who is targetable and who is not as the bars at the top are not enough. Especially since in this fight Trinity, who spawns every round does not have a bar at the top!

I do understand there is the highlight option, however, I feel like having to turn this on for this specific fight seems like a sign that more visual clarity is needed. Same idea for having to completely turn off particles/effects. If we are going to have fights like this, it should be designed to be CLEAR from the start for people who don't need the additional visual help.

GW2 is actually a victim of basically no visual clarity and half the time you have no idea what's even going on. Compare that to WoW who is finally realizing, you know...people can't see anything. This might be an issue.

Further to the point, more than half the time I have no idea what kills me. We DESPERATELY need a combat log/damage recap screen. For fights like these or even things like ETA/EDA I would love to know what's causing me to go downstate. Guessing only gets me so far when I'm trying to prep builds properly for the content I'm doing. I've had times where I get randomly one shot through health and shields with 0 status procs. No idea why, where, how, or who. Having a log of some kind would be super helpful and may even help with reporting undiagnosed bugs. *flashbacks to Mesmer Skin release bug*

Closing Thoughts

Overall the fight itself was fine. Not bad, not good, just fine. I would not call it hard. It's tedious and it's antithetical to how I like/want to play Warframe. As I said, it makes me feel like I'm playing Destiny 2 and I'd just rather not. No, I don't expect to use a Sevegoth nuke build and one shot, but being able to make use of a frame's kit in these fights would be nice instead of "shieldgate burrrrr, incarnon burrrr, timer burrrr". 

I understand the want to make hard content and that's completely fine. As a Souls enjoyer, I definitely get it and it's why I do these fights. However, Souls difficulty is built from the ground up. Everything in the game is built around supporting it and giving the player the tools to be successful. As an example: I can cheese a boss with a broken build OR I can level 1 no hit. Either strat and everything in between is accepted.

If Warframe wants to have this kind of content, I feel like a true deep dive in to HOW and WHY Souls games make it work is needed. Give the player options, not restrictions. You CAN make hard content that incorporates a players creativity while also challenging them.

TLDR: Why you here if no read?

DE, did you even try this mission?

In case you don't believe me

Give us all 3 resources, since we are fighting all 3 bosses

But I will say, the most egregious is with the 3rd fight There's a little red ball that trails to you as a mechanic, but it ignores all invisibility and sometimes invincibility leading to an instant down (rolling guard), even if you're in your operator, the warframe isn't in a mechanic, and you're at its head. While the mechanic may be programmed to target your main body, there's very little indication when it has spawned and is coming towards you. This makes it difficult to judge when its safe to sling as your operator or have to stay in your warframe to kill it.  In addition to that, the hitbox of the final fight has always been terrible where you can stand in mid air on its back and sometimes get hit with its head beam. Its as if its hitbox was just slapped together with cubes and never optimized for its shape. I don't know if this is an engine limitation, but its extremely difficult to move around in the arena when everything is a 1 shot, only to have your operator 'stuck' in the boss while its leg is in the air and you're unknowingly dashing into the invisible hitbox when we're just trying to move around to a better position.  Also, whenever the boss is moving, its hitbox takes up the ENTIRE ARENA. Making it nearly impossible to kill the swarms so you can get your void bullets to nuke at times or even recover.

One of the Failed runs I did that shows off the hitbox problem, especially when using the furis incarnon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp7tFoOA33A Overall, I really love the way more mechanics are being put into the game. But PLEASE stop making everything a disable + energy drain for failing a single mechanic leading to invuln spamming. Its extremely mundane, and there's so little interactivity with the bosses that's required other than just damage, and y'all ramping up attenuation to just make it longer instead of making more mechanics to make the fights more intractable. Floor is lava mechanics, operator-only mechanics (like using slings to break on Uriel is cool), etc would really make it soar.

After I removed the whole 3 health bars of the Hunhullus, its 3 yellow health bars recovered as if I did nothing.

Then I ran around the boss to see if anything gonna happen.

After about 9s things went normally and the Hunhullus suddenly fly into space.

Now here is the WOW thing: Right at the start of this Archwing stage, right when I saw my Nokko flying on my Archwing, I died instantly without warning, before I can even move or attack. Mission failed. WOW.

I cannot even see my own health bar at that time.

No shield gate. Nothing. Just die INSTANTLY, right when I can see my own Nokko on my Archwing.

How could people deal with it when they cannot even do anything, just die right at the 1s of that Archwing stage ?

How ?

I tried to spam 4 so that my Amesa can defense itself but wow nothing happened, just die, mission failed. It's not fair.

At least players should have 6s invulnerable until their keyboard can be used to move or attack.

I'm going to keep trying eventually, but the group plays of this have intimidated me to needing to stick to theorycrafting some more before I try to solo this myself. There is a well made instructional video out there by The Haqo on youtube. They make it look very easy, almost suspiciously so because part of me doubts I can pull it off looking at how smooth it goes.

If it is intended that Trinity can permakill your companion, I guess I'd like any advice on whether or not I should wait a bit before trying to target her or when to start evading. Because I can't tell the timing on when the invulnerability stage begins, especially because in wave 1 I can kill her off completely before she has a chance to do anything. It's subsequent waves where the invulnerability period has a chance to start while I'm still in her face, and my weapon of choice is a laetum.

For the sake of QOL, companions should NOT be disappearing. We should have a chance to pick them back up regardless of Trinity, and that's just from experience given that with any other hardmode boss fight I've done, companions never just disappeared-- especially not for good. I really do want to give this mode a chance because I like to challenge myself, but at the very least we should be able to use our full loadout, companions included, for the entirety of the fight.

No I didn't use the full Hermit style shield gating build and meta incarnon weapons because that would be too easy and I didn't use squads because I saw the clips online, it's too damn easy. Arcane Nullifier and Vazarin spam is the only defense I used because it was the bare minimum to keep my sanity for the mission. I used no incarnons and no galvanized or amalgam mods. I didn't use Roar helminth or any frame with invulnerability passive and I didn't use the meta DPS frames like Mirage ( I used Excal and Mag since they're starter frames) . I didn't optimize the fun out of the game. I played the way you want us to play and it felt like crap either your way or with all my top gear when I DID go with my meta loadout. It took me 8 tries with my DE friendly restrictions and 2 with the meta loadouts solo. Meta removes mission entirely and non-meta feel horrible. It's a loss-loss

Let's detour to the positives. The music is phenomenal. Concept of Perita boss rush is amazing. I like the vanguard (Except for Protea, whose behavior shows me that none of this was playtested). They all have personality, they actually do something, and I'm honestly jealous of some of their abilities. Ember especially. I love the Fire Spirit Bomb. I felt like she was saying "Players, lend me your sanity!" The 2 Dactolyst is a nice touch and reminds me of a boss rush from Destiny 2 where one of the bosses got a doppelganger to support him.

Problem is that it was a giant waste of time for you developers. Nobody is going to recommend doing these missions and nobody is going to use these as performance metrics because it doesn't challenge your performance. There's a slew of reasons why.

Archon style attenuation is an absolute joke. Always has been, always will be. Every time you add it, 99% of people hate it and let you know. Every. Single. Time. I'm sick of watching a health bar resist me like Michael Todd hitting a King's move. It's annoying and the funny thing is to get around it, all I have to do is stand there and wait for the bucket to empty for me to just go back in and melt again.

But that's not enough right? Gotta have nullifiers. You make frames that have 4 abilities and the peak level of gaming to you is not using any of them. It feels rotten. The amount of nullification is not as ridiculous as captain vor but it's still a horrible mechanic that we players don't enjoy but you keep adding in. You'll find a minority of players that enjoy the challenge of not having abilities to rely on but while an admirable side-game, it's just that, a side game and players could've chosen to do it. This is not how you resist players.

Even that's not enough though. Majority of primes have an immunity state. I'm literally just waiting for them to die while they do all their invulnerability moves while I stand there with a finger up my proverbial but. I can't nullify them and many attacks cannot be prevented.

• Trinity's abilities let's her go invulnerable during the cast. Blessing is fine with the hand counter but with a protea or caliban around, good luck getting a lock. So what do I do? Wait unless I can even find the trinity and her hand.
• Protea spams her time rewind and dispensary that heals her (I have a clip of her chaining these back to back). She chains rewind attacks so you just have to wait for an opening and then do the damage immunity dance with her until the next window. Even her specter is attenuated with object health, like what?! Again waiting.
• Volt's shield is annoying but the 4 circles is fine to counter if the hitbox wasn't messed up
• Ash goes immune multiple times for no reason
• However, Ember has Damage reduction ON TOP of the attenuation during any of her abilities, which is amazing. Why wasn't THIS the mechanic for the other frames and why does ember have it?

What's funny is that if you didn't have nullification and didn't use Bucket Decay Attenuation, these mechanics could've been acceptable since it's a gameplay mechanic that requires a mechanic to work around, but it's active, not player preventative for the sake of existing and would be a roadblock to the actual gameplay, not the gameplay itself.

You also don't tell players to avoid taking damage like the plague which you just about have to here. The most egregious example is the Archwing section, which has horrible level design with a birdcage feeling and basically guaranteed nullification leading to death unless you use one of 2 archwings. You could argue that there's that ONE time that you could complete the mission without all that stuff, but that's unrealistic.

However, these are just excuses we make to justify the fact that the peak level of gaming in warframe is to not use your warframes and that just feels wrong.

Have you ever seen Tiger Woods go to a 55 Slope Gold Course with nothing but a putter and call it pro play? Gimping yourself in a mission =/= difficulty, It’s removal of agency and until you actually learn this, you will NEVER have an endgame. Any attempt to challenge us will be a waste of time and effort. You talk about wanting challenges and wanting things to be balanced on one hand, then throw balance out the window with the other hand each update while claiming verbatim to not care, only to come back and take away everything with nerfs and these nullified missions because you want to create a "Challenge".

I don't even feel motivated to complete the accolade collection because what's the point? The mission is not engaging without severe gjmping because of the reliance on timed counterplay, unrewarding (not really an issue sine this is a special challenge mission but still a factor), and the accolade frame choices are ridiculous. It's not the vanguard, it's not the Devil's Triad, and it doesn't even look good.  A massive community of talented artist and a front view portrait is the best we got? Nokko and Oberon? How about Mesa? Did you even think about her? SHE'S ON THE SQUAD! And unlike the others, hasn't gotten a glyph yet. You did Wisp, but you skipped Harrow and Uriel. Uriel is the newest frame and usually you do the newest frame as a glyph. This time, you chose the second newest frame. What was the logic? I had a hard time deciding to go for the glyphs but I'm gonna wait until you guys get something better than these placeholders.

This is disappointing. L across the board.

Edit: Fixed title to clarify point. Attenuation can be fun, but not this formula

Honestly, for how difficult this can be and how drastic this is compared to normal and SP Perita Rebellion, I don't think it's too far fetched to at least get 10 of each resource from each boss. Of course, hard mode versions of bosses in the past didn't offer much replayability outside of the glyphs and they're here as well, but for as much as I think this is some of the better hard mode versions of bosses that we've had yet, I would love to be able to grind it out for the rest of the Tauron stuff I still have yet to get because of how much Perita Rebellion runs have and still totally bore and burn me out after a while.

This issue is also made worse by getting null-locked into either Tenno or Warframe modes because of nullifying attacks that are hard if not nigh impossible to react to, especially the one that makes the floor a death-trap that is hard to see due to the new lighting/color for the arena.

You did great with the Follie mission fixes, please give the Dactolyst the same love.

That being said, the one fatal flaw with the guilty (as well it's all the other hard bosses) is that the mechanics of the fight lead to only one type of build being viable.

I've been using the exact same loadout (using arcane aegis, rolling guard, and vazarin protective sling) to finish every boss fight, and not only that but it seems to be the only way that one CAN finish the fights.The nullify effects, as well as tremendous damage output, lead to the same problems with every single other build. I've tried normal shield gating builds: works until one of the attacks that nullifies also takes out my shields at which point you cannot cast and ability to regret your shields... dead. Tried running persistence builds: they work really well, the enemy damage output maxes out the 500 damage/sec cap so you have to manage your health regen using abilities and operator arcanes, then you inevitably get nullified, persistence turns off, and you get one-shot... dead.

Now I do genuinely like the aegis/rolling-guard/vazarin build, there's a lot of management and careful playing needed to keep yourself invincible, it's hands-on and requires a bit of skill and practice to perfect. But it means that the best way to play the boss fights is with the exact same build on every frame. I've gotten every single accolade glyph without using a single ability or passive unique to any of the frames. I copy/past the same build onto any frame and get the same result.

The guilty was also meant showcase the power of tauron strikes, but unfortunately the only school to use is vazarin. I tried running others (and was having fun using them to do absurd damage) but inevitably I was handicapping myself as I didn't have access to protective sling, and have so far been unable to beat the boss with any other focus school.

Which brings me to my main point. The hard mode bosses are really fun, but the mechanics mean that any sort of build variety is automatically a handicap. I understand needing a late game build, and practicing certain skills to beat the boss, but it would be nice if the mechanics allowed me to use OTHER late game builds and skills as well. I'm talking only about warframe builds here, as I know weapons builds can carry a much larger variety. 

TL;DR super fun boss fight, beaten it loads, have enjoyed myself every time, but the glaring flaw is that there is only one type of build that really works and everything else is an extreme handicap (or just straight up impossible). 

Love you DE. Keep up the good work! 

After the mission my friend received both, me nothing at all. He was the host.

We did a 2nd round and i received the sumdalni but honoria still missing. 

fight 1

over all the prime frames feel tanky enough to justify using our strongest weapons, which attacks of theirs that cause the nullification can get a bit lost in the sauce with all the effects going off.  a well equipped squad is still going to burn through them but the, having the phase progression tied to that many prime frames still generally leads to the atmosphere being maintained which is ideally what we are looking for

fight 2

due to the dactolysts spawning right next to each other one big opener can take them both out causing the phase to progress, ideally they should spawn at opposite ends of the fight this will increase the chances of the phase lasting long enough to keep power players engaged & give the dactolysts a chance at getting an attack of rather than being spawn killed.  from what i have gotten to experience of the fight other than instant wins the mechanics seem fine of having the walls and added enemies spawn in. 

fight 3

so the first phase mainly seems fine, there is some hit box awkwardness with the hunhullus legs sometimes that make it hard to get close to hit it with melee which can feel awkward, unsure if this is host client shenanigans or just hit box weirdness? most of my feels for this fight land on its second phase, the archwing hunhullus does not dramatically react when losing a health bar, its attack patterns do not change as we progress and its always ideal to hit the head, this undermines the drama of the fight and makes it feel like a bit of slog regardless of how long you actually spend fighting it. my suggestions would be to give it a district scream on losing its first health bar and a more dramatic one on losing its second health bar, have its main laser move a little faster with two bars remaining and make the beam larger and change it to red when its on its last health bar. i do think it could also benefit from having a bit more movement over all, either rotating around the center point when not firing its laser and just moving its body a bit more as it feels a bit stiff as is.  this more or less applies to the base hunhullus fight too.

---------

as a general feed back as we see fights with more mechanics in them i would like to see more emphasis of Big dramatic mechanics that ask you to use your movement to answer them over small floor energy attacks that are easily lost in the sauce.  a lot of warframes core strength is in its movement and having mechanics that engage with it feel like the right direction to me.  given that operators an drifters are being pulled into the loop more often as well i would personally like to see their range of movement expanded perhaps adding some variation animations when doing flips and such, some kind of void-kour movement 2.0 for them could go along way to making them feel more engaging. using void mode more dynamically as apart of their fighting style and movement both mechanically and thematically could elevate the experience over all.

the music is on point and i would bleed the english language dry before i could adequately describe how much i enjoy it. good job music team, keep cooking you're really good at what you do. 

We need some mechanics to get them and use them for the future bosses not just spam it.

I liked that there were 2 Dactolysts, but I was expecting something different for Hunhullus too, not just a DPS Check on Phase 2.

Overall it's fun but need more ideas.

Also please make it drop all bosses rewards, not just the Hunhullus ones...