Yes, Its About Ember, Again

[D3monicWrath]

i started this game when Excalibur prime was still around, and my first goal was to get the ember warframe

she has been my all time fav

that is until the update, which removed all her tankyness and added a stun....

and now i feel like she is pretty much useless...

 

soooo here;s the thing

ember only has fire dmg

fire dmg only useful aginst infested

infested not seen on regular missions........

ok that pretty much makes her useless compared to other frames

at least she is useful against infested...........right?

well, ember is so squishy she gets her face peeled off right away after getting pulled by ancients...... thats one thing,may i remind you what the purpose DE may or may not had for adding defense buff to her abilities was?

they can also take all your energy away, soooo you have nothing to escape with,ok then

her ult is most useful especially if you are in middle of a big crowd 

but its long @$$ cast time makes it a bad idea to cast it in middle of a crowd........

its not the only spell that takes time to cast

but mag has a cc before the dmg was dealt, plus her 1000+shield with redirection

Excalibur's  ult has the cast time happening after the dmg was dealt and everybody's dead

ember has nothing like that :(

so unless you want to waste more energy using your stun or a mod slot for natural talent

enjoy dying during cast.....

plus she;s slow......

really slow.......

and her ult requires a lotta running........

i dunno about you im gonna put a rush mod in.

what place does a game have for a character thats slow AND squishy?

especially a game that wants you to survive while having 20 guns constantly firing at you?

nova has her slow and wormhole

banshee is the queen of stunlocks

loki can just disappear

what does ember have again? oh right.....she stuns......for a few sec.....

this aint no moba so im not expecting balance......

but when you see a game character does something that others just does way better

there;s gotta be somthing wrong......

ok ill be honest

 

i want  the old ability 2 back

Ember has different purposes, mainly a light weight frame in a team she can work with the right synergy.  For instance loki using radical disarm and then ember using fire blast when they all run at you. Also she stuns alot longer depending on your load out. I use different frames for different situations. Dont every rely heavily on one frame, ember is balanced to her specifications, expecting more would be rewriting ember.

[D3monicWrath]

for the fireblast part,wont a huge dmg large range dot skill just be another WoF? ive seen DE making stupid choices but i dont thing they'll make this one......

valkyr and trinity are the two truely 'unkillable' warframe....trinity is actually better suited for solo play.

tbh, there is no point nerfing anything, this aint no moba there isnt even a decent PVP system. why worry about balance?

mirage is a beast in solar rail PVE, trinity and vaylkr fights last depending on how much energy they have, facing a mirror image can take forever. Nyx is a beast in survival and defense, namely def absorb is a beast move, that and I like taking control of exumus and vor in T4.

Edited August 4, 2014 by D3monicWrath

[SandwitchPrime]

Guess what ? 

 

Overheat wouldn't allow you to use accelerant, so using Overheat would prevent you from doing enough damage.

 

So your issue would be even worse with overheat back. Ember would be tanky but rather useless in terms of DPS, and she is meant to be a damage frame, not a tank. 

 

 

All she needs is toggle on WoF and maybe an increased sprint speed. 

guess what? we could always remove fireblast, it;s nothing but a wonderfully visualized piece of crap and if that makes her too op think about trinity

[SandwitchPrime]

Saryn > Ember when playing against Infested, in my opinion. Ember definitely needs some buffs.

now days anything beats ember against infested

[SandwitchPrime]

Ember has different purposes, mainly a light weight frame in a team she can work with the right synergy.  For instance loki using radical disarm and then ember using fire blast when they all run at you. Also she stuns alot longer depending on your load out. I use different frames for different situations. Dont every rely heavily on one frame, ember is balanced to her specifications, expecting more would be rewriting ember.

ok now thats funny, loki uses radical disarm and ember use fireblast......since when can fireblast deal that much dmg? and if you already have a loki may as well just bring a nova or something, not the best excuse you can find is it?

 

again, this aint no moba, balance and roles are unnecessary, if you want to make one frame op, you need to make another frame just as op as the one before

[CephalonShy]

Ember is basically dead. No one uses her in anything beyond lvl 25, and rightfully so - sad damage, no survivability. But DE, evidently, hate her with passion, so i dont expect her to ever come back.

[.Czern]

Ember is basically dead. No one uses her in anything beyond lvl 25, and rightfully so - sad damage, no survivability. But DE, evidently, hate her with passion, so i dont expect her to ever come back.

Well, I do, but I usually stick to Fireball only. Ring of Fire doesn't work as intended, World on Fire is weak and Accelerant is just meh for me (I still have it equipped because it saves my silly bottom sometimes xD).

They already reworked Nova, Trinity, Ash and Oberon, maybe Ember will be next?

[Casval_Rouge]

Ember's design just doesn't make sense to me, it never has.  3 of Ember's powers are nova types, they all require you to be right in the center for maximum effect.  Yet Ember is not only slow (relative to other Warframes that have speed helmets or just inherently fast), but she has low shield, health AND armor?  Ember is actually the worst Warframe with a 1.0 speed or slower stats-wise.  With only 300/300 and 15 armor.  She is the weakest in terms of defense.   Vauban might seem the weakest, but he is made of CC powers, Ember is not.  The same with Trinity who has heals.  Volt has a large shield to benefit greatly from redirection and have a cover.  Therefore Ember is the weakest among the 1.0 and below.   All she has going is energy capacity.  Which is funny because the one faction she is suppose to be a direct counter to, also has a direct counter to her - disruptors.  

 

Next is her powers.  Accelerant is dumb because fire damage is not better than elemental combinations. So in order to make full use of accelerant, you have to mod with fire damage + corrosive.  Which doesn't seem too bad, until you factor in the fact that that's at least 3 slots already occupied.  In order to do decent damage without accelerant, you'll need 3 mods to have fire+corrsive, then you'll want a generic damage mod, elemental + status mods for those 3 elementals.  That's 7 slots.  All of that just so your damage won't be S#&$ if you can't accelerant for various reasons.  Those reasons mostly have to do with the fact that accelerant is nova, not a targeted AOE, or cone.  So with the little defense you have, you have to run right into the middle to CC and debuff as many as possible.  That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  A glass cannon having to run straight into the mob.  Because not only do you have to take risk just to use your CC (which defeats the point of CC, they're suppose to keep you safe), you also have to take even more risk to use your ult.

 

WoF is also dumb as hell.  Long cast time, for a small aoe, short duration, weak damage type, power hungry ult.  And you have to be right in the mess too.  I'm just going keep repeating that.  Someone please explain this to me.  What kind of glass cannon would want to to stay in the middle, and start channeling for a ult.  Accelerant might seem to solve this problem, except it doesn't  Because in order to increase the effectiveness of Ember's power.  You'll have to play a game of balancing corrupted mods.  You'll need duration for Acc + WoF to last long enough to matter.  You'll need damage for greater multiplier for Acc, and WoF to kill quick enough so you don't have to stand in the open for too long.  You'll need range so your Acc will actually hit everyone that is attack you, and for WoF to not be a melee range spell.  And lastly you'll need energy efficiency because despite her high energy cap, you'll need 230 (max power) energy to cast Acc + WoF.  You only have 225 if you're not using Flow or have some kind of efficiency.  Also without damage mods, your fireball will be S#&$ unless used with Acc.  So you'll have to choose between Acc+ Fireball, or Acc + WoF for optimized build.  Ultimately, Ember's powers are a pain to balance because something will always negatively affect each other, and in the end it is never worth it to begin with. 

 

TLDR

 

6 major reasons why Ember's design don't make any sense.

 

1.Glass cannon ->must be right in the midst for maximum effectiveness.

 

2,Slow speed -> fragile as well (unlike Rhino, or loki, or Ash, or Nova, or literally everyone else)

 

3.Only good stat is energy cap -> Her supposed purpose is to counter Infested, Infested have disruptors that would ruin her completely.

 

4.Powers require ALL stats to be increased to be effective at high level -> corrupted mods counter each other.  Unlike say Loki who only needs duration, or Ash with damage and/or duration, etc.

 

5.Powers also require Acc to be effective -> Given corrupted mods' nature, you would have to choose either Fireball or WoF, not both for optimization. 

 

6.Supposed to be good at CC -> Must take risk to cast CC, when CCs are meant to indirectly protect you. 

[SandwitchPrime]

Ember's design just doesn't make sense to me, it never has.  3 of Ember's powers are nova types, they all require you to be right in the center for maximum effect.  Yet Ember is not only slow (relative to other Warframes that have speed helmets or just inherently fast), but she has low shield, health AND armor?  Ember is actually the worst Warframe with a 1.0 speed or slower stats-wise.  With only 300/300 and 15 armor.  She is the weakest in terms of defense.   Vauban might seem the weakest, but he is made of CC powers, Ember is not.  The same with Trinity who has heals.  Volt has a large shield to benefit greatly from redirection and have a cover.  Therefore Ember is the weakest among the 1.0 and below.   All she has going is energy capacity.  Which is funny because the one faction she is suppose to be a direct counter to, also has a direct counter to her - disruptors.  

 

Next is her powers.  Accelerant is dumb because fire damage is not better than elemental combinations. So in order to make full use of accelerant, you have to mod with fire damage + corrosive.  Which doesn't seem too bad, until you factor in the fact that that's at least 3 slots already occupied.  In order to do decent damage without accelerant, you'll need 3 mods to have fire+corrsive, then you'll want a generic damage mod, elemental + status mods for those 3 elementals.  That's 7 slots.  All of that just so your damage won't be S#&$ if you can't accelerant for various reasons.  Those reasons mostly have to do with the fact that accelerant is nova, not a targeted AOE, or cone.  So with the little defense you have, you have to run right into the middle to CC and debuff as many as possible.  That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  A glass cannon having to run straight into the mob.  Because not only do you have to take risk just to use your CC (which defeats the point of CC, they're suppose to keep you safe), you also have to take even more risk to use your ult.

 

WoF is also dumb as hell.  Long cast time, for a small aoe, short duration, weak damage type, power hungry ult.  And you have to be right in the mess too.  I'm just going keep repeating that.  Someone please explain this to me.  What kind of glass cannon would want to to stay in the middle, and start channeling for a ult.  Accelerant might seem to solve this problem, except it doesn't  Because in order to increase the effectiveness of Ember's power.  You'll have to play a game of balancing corrupted mods.  You'll need duration for Acc + WoF to last long enough to matter.  You'll need damage for greater multiplier for Acc, and WoF to kill quick enough so you don't have to stand in the open for too long.  You'll need range so your Acc will actually hit everyone that is attack you, and for WoF to not be a melee range spell.  And lastly you'll need energy efficiency because despite her high energy cap, you'll need 230 (max power) energy to cast Acc + WoF.  You only have 225 if you're not using Flow or have some kind of efficiency.  Also without damage mods, your fireball will be S#&$ unless used with Acc.  So you'll have to choose between Acc+ Fireball, or Acc + WoF for optimized build.  Ultimately, Ember's powers are a pain to balance because something will always negatively affect each other, and in the end it is never worth it to begin with. 

 

TLDR

 

6 major reasons why Ember's design don't make any sense.

 

1.Glass cannon ->must be right in the midst for maximum effectiveness.

 

2,Slow speed -> fragile as well (unlike Rhino, or loki, or Ash, or Nova, or literally everyone else)

 

3.Only good stat is energy cap -> Her supposed purpose is to counter Infested, Infested have disruptors that would ruin her completely.

 

4.Powers require ALL stats to be increased to be effective at high level -> corrupted mods counter each other.  Unlike say Loki who only needs duration, or Ash with damage and/or duration, etc.

 

5.Powers also require Acc to be effective -> Given corrupted mods' nature, you would have to choose either Fireball or WoF, not both for optimization. 

 

6.Supposed to be good at CC -> Must take risk to cast CC, when CCs are meant to indirectly protect you. 

couldn't have put it better myself

all the (successful) glass cannons in gaming history were always quickly in quickly out, ember had to crawl her &#! in and out while bullets flying all over the bloody place.

like i said,  when you have a frame that does something others just does way better, you know you have a problem.

for the CC part, banshee, nova, nyx, exacu, loki and everybody else beats her.....even nekros has his ult as CC

[FatalJ]

Personally I always liked the Ember,  I like the fact she is pretty much a pure damage frame and her defence is that she kills her enemies before they can kill her. Her CC comes in the form of the Fire proc, which actually does provide a pretty lengthy stun to enemies when it is applied. Sadly it gets tougher and tougher to do as the game goes on compared to other Warframes, because unlike her other high damage counterparts she just cannot reliably get out of the way if she can't burst a target down, and so she tends to have to use a lot of energy to ensure the target dies fast.

 

Things to note are: -
- Her fireball is accurate, with a nice little AoE that comes off it on hit, making proccing your Fire stun on a mob reasonably reliable.

- Her accelerant is the key part of her kit. The mini stun gives her time to cast, and coupled with the 250% extra fire damage it gives on her abilities, the Ember can rip through mobs very rapidly for good portions of the game.

- Her Fire Blast is probably the only skill I really don't like on the Ember, because it is only any use at all on melee, and that use is negligable. Every now and again if you are running away it MIGHT come in handy, but I rarely see a use for the energy.

- World on Fire. You all know it, the big boom, bread and butter. Thing is you get to a point where you HAVE to use accelerant to make good use of it, you are talking 150 energy a pop without Streamline (105 with). If you slam it down with Fleeting Expertise, you lose Duration which isn't what you want on this ability. When S#&$ really starts to hit the fan, and you are throwing it down more often than a toddler wielding a whole box of cheerios, you find yourself 24/7 sprinting blindly through a wall of fire until you get hit by a random shotgun instagib or something.

Still, love that frame :)

[saltshaker42]

The good old days when Ember used to be a tank. Seriously DE, can we have that again? I don't even bother using her anymore, and she was my second favorite tank! Saryn was/is #1.

[traybong111]

I don't expect Overheat back, at this point I don't even expect the slightest re-work to Fire Blast or World on Fire. 

 

Just put some hard, mod-able duration to Accelerant's stun (2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 seconds of stun at the beginning of its debuff period) and make it give her a slight speed boost and I'll light things on fire happily. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by traybong111

[taiiat]

i wanted to give useful feedback on what this thread was going to say.

 

but, i'm sorry, but i can't read blocks of text cut at random places without punctuation and no line breaks.

trailing off at random points very often while you're typing doesn't help either.

 

this isn't an IM service, there isn't any fire to run to while you're typing. having punctuation when a phrase ends and separating thoughts so they can be read separately from each other makes things a lot more readable.

 

 

i just can't read that. 

[Azawarau]

I understood it well enough person above

 

Still think people dont know how to ember

[castem]

I won't say that Ember is strictly bad, but.....I can't think of any situations in Warframe that I would prefer Ember over another frame.  I really think DE should give her another look over, because right now Ember isn't very compelling to play as (imo), and her abilities certainly could use getting looked at.

[Azawarau]

I won't say that Ember is strictly bad, but.....I can't think of any situations in Warframe that I would prefer Ember over another frame.  I really think DE should give her another look over, because right now Ember isn't very compelling to play as (imo), and her abilities certainly could use getting looked at.

Accelerant spam is so nice

[SandwitchPrime]

Personally I always liked the Ember,  I like the fact she is pretty much a pure damage frame and her defence is that she kills her enemies before they can kill her. Her CC comes in the form of the Fire proc, which actually does provide a pretty lengthy stun to enemies when it is applied. Sadly it gets tougher and tougher to do as the game goes on compared to other Warframes, because unlike her other high damage counterparts she just cannot reliably get out of the way if she can't burst a target down, and so she tends to have to use a lot of energy to ensure the target dies fast.

 

Things to note are: -

- Her fireball is accurate, with a nice little AoE that comes off it on hit, making proccing your Fire stun on a mob reasonably reliable.

- Her accelerant is the key part of her kit. The mini stun gives her time to cast, and coupled with the 250% extra fire damage it gives on her abilities, the Ember can rip through mobs very rapidly for good portions of the game.

- Her Fire Blast is probably the only skill I really don't like on the Ember, because it is only any use at all on melee, and that use is negligable. Every now and again if you are running away it MIGHT come in handy, but I rarely see a use for the energy.

- World on Fire. You all know it, the big boom, bread and butter. Thing is you get to a point where you HAVE to use accelerant to make good use of it, you are talking 150 energy a pop without Streamline (105 with). If you slam it down with Fleeting Expertise, you lose Duration which isn't what you want on this ability. When S#&$ really starts to hit the fan, and you are throwing it down more often than a toddler wielding a whole box of cheerios, you find yourself 24/7 sprinting blindly through a wall of fire until you get hit by a random shotgun instagib or something.

Still, love that frame :)

funny, she kills enemies faster than enemies kill her, just in case you didnt know, she is one of the slowest frame existing(calculated by spell cast speed and sprint speed), and the only one that has almost 0 defense abilities( dont even talk about the mini stun, aint even enough to get outta shooting range), mean while squishy as nova, killing lv 30 heavy unites with her spells alone seems unlikely and not even worth trying.

one point you are correct on, she cant get out if she cant get an insta kill on targets, and guess what? hardly any frame could be able to insta kill enemies at levels any higher than 30.

and since she's slow, alone with her poor defense abilities would make WoF almost useless, crawling your @$$ in and out with the speed of 1.0 while 30 guns putting more and more bullets in your head just aint smart.

all of us here on this topic love ember, that's why we are talking about this, but as it appears DE doesnt, ember prime is nothing but a expensive skin to begin with, and she just lost her real bread and butter, overheat.

[DrBorris]

I made a post on how to improve WoF to make Ember a CC and damage glass cannon. It would be OP against infested, but that is a good thing in Ember's case. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/288093-embers-world-on-fire-rework/#entry3299544

[RealPandemonium]

Make WoF a toggle and change Fire Blast into something useful.  Then increase sprint speed a little and boom, Ember fixed.  

Edited August 30, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

Make WoF a toggle and change Fire Blast into something useful.  Then increase sprint speed a little and boom, Ember fixed.  

yes pls

[-ZeroStar-]

She TRULY is very slow... How slow?  Play ANY frame... Run+Crouch+Jump... You HAVE to have a huge amount of space no matter how often you spam the spacebar... you'll just slide right into that empty nothingness and respawn back up top... I had manage to hit the space bar 7 times from Crouch to Jump and STILL didn't jump... 

It's just getting annoying, I love her frame otherwise, but this whole, not being able to slide+jump without having at least 1-3 seconds needed is just ridiculous!!  Play ANY other frame, and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about... I just really don't see the point to making it so that a frame reacts SLOWER than the rest... All it does is put them at a huge disadvantage and no reasoning for it... 

[ivlr3vil]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/150376-upcoming-ember-changes/?p=1999932

 

This is old and I'm sure they're aware of this.

 

I've built an ember that can last to late game really well. I don't want Overheat to return, I just want a buffed up Fire Blast that is better than General Sargus Ruk's or those flame eximus. Seriously have you seen Ruk's attacks? When he smashes the ground and doesn't move, that's sort of what WoF is or when you see this giant cyclone fire, that's his fire blast. The middle of the ring, the eye of the fire blast should deal damage. Do it like how the eximus do, make it powered by power range and have it spread out from the epicenter like how the eximus do it and have a knockdown effect. I'll take this over overheat since the ability isn't too unique. It's a cross between Iron Skin and Trinity's Link.

 

All elemental frames should be immune to their respective statuses. It makes no sense how Ember is literally on Fire while casting WoF to be burnt and damaged by fire in a stage. Sort of like how I find it strange for Saryn to be affected by poison or frost to freeze effects.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ivlr3vil

[SandwitchPrime]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/150376-upcoming-ember-changes/?p=1999932

 

This is old and I'm sure they're aware of this.

 

I've built an ember that can last to late game really well. I don't want Overheat to return, I just want a buffed up Fire Blast that is better than General Sargus Ruk's or those flame eximus. Seriously have you seen Ruk's attacks? When he smashes the ground and doesn't move, that's sort of what WoF is or when you see this giant cyclone fire, that's his fire blast. The middle of the ring, the eye of the fire blast should deal damage. Do it like how the eximus do, make it powered by power range and have it spread out from the epicenter like how the eximus do it and have a knockdown effect. I'll take this over overheat since the ability isn't too unique. It's a cross between Iron Skin and Trinity's Link.

 

All elemental frames should be immune to their respective statuses. It makes no sense how Ember is literally on Fire while casting WoF to be burnt and damaged by fire in a stage. Sort of like how I find it strange for Saryn to be affected by poison or frost to freeze effects.

uhhh how many times do i have to say this, it's okay for a frame to have no damage output but it's bs when you try to have a frame with no defense, ruk's fireblast would be too op but since they made nova it could work, but still overheat seems much better if you've ever seen the tanky ember before, plus knocking all enemies cross the room will only piss your teammates......

and about the elemental resistance.....yeah that just ruins the balance unless DE make a passive like that for every single warframe which seems unlikly.

[SandwitchPrime]

She TRULY is very slow... How slow?  Play ANY frame... Run+Crouch+Jump... You HAVE to have a huge amount of space no matter how often you spam the spacebar... you'll just slide right into that empty nothingness and respawn back up top... I had manage to hit the space bar 7 times from Crouch to Jump and STILL didn't jump... 

It's just getting annoying, I love her frame otherwise, but this whole, not being able to slide+jump without having at least 1-3 seconds needed is just ridiculous!!  Play ANY other frame, and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about... I just really don't see the point to making it so that a frame reacts SLOWER than the rest... All it does is put them at a huge disadvantage and no reasoning for it... 

same, dont see the point of having sprint speed differences, espically in a co-op game like this one where everybody just rush their way to the objective