Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[[DE]Megan]

Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

 

Scott's Comments:

Ah Ember, after looking Ember over it was obvious she was suffering from some neglect. She had numerous under the hood bugs that would make her powers not quite right. We fixed her up and gave her a buff. One of the biggest changes for Ember players will be the change to overheat. Ember was meant to be a caster damage frame not a tank, with addition of mods and changes to the game she became one of the best tanks in the game. This was never intended and she is now back in the roll she is meant to fill. I am aware that Overheat and World on Fire is very similar in design.  This might need further rework to push these two powers further apart. Suggestions and feedback welcome.

 

Changes:

 

Fireball: Fixed the dot attaching to the target. Increased the damage and dot damage per sec.

 

Overheat: Fire skin is now an offensive power rather than a defensive power. Reduced damage reduction and upped the damage output. Warframe strength mods now modify the damage.

 

Fire Blast: Fixed scaling problem, mesh scaled but the damage wall never did. Range mods no longer affect Fire blast; duration and strength mods do.

[GTG3000]

hokay, having played her new state, I have to say this - 

 

Scott. I understand that sometimes things go not the way you expected them to be, and the temporal solution may be coming out into a different direction, but I hope you too know that, when changing things, especially things people care about, not only the original idea should be taken into consideration, but also what you have on your hands, what hope people have invested in what you have created.

 

And what you have created is a tanky frame, that was fun to play with. Not an all-dps frame. Not a glass cannon. You fixed Overheat once, and you made it *perfect*. Sometimes, there's nothing more permanent than a temporal solution, and you should not have tried to fix what was not broken.

 

Changing the ability that has had became her major point does not strike me as a smart decision. Neither it sounds like something a man who cares about people playing this frame and about this frame  would do, but I understand that neither of those is true, and, as with many changes warframe has gone through, this is just an attempt to see what you can do before making it right.

 

And to make it right, you just have to make one simple thing - revert Overheat back, and accept it how it is, not wasting time on what is already good, when there are more glaring issues at hand.

 

Issues like, say, Fireball. Or Fireblast. 

 

You claimed to have fixed both, and I applaud the attention you have given, but there is a simple detail that ruins it a bit - both abilities are as flawed as they were.

 

Don't get me wrong, the new damage of the fireblast is quite delicious, but it only works if you can trap the enemies in that circle of fire it produces, and, aside from the infested, crossing the border does little to the enemies. This still still begs for a rework into a proper cc ability, that would make it shine. 

 

Same goes for Fireball. I have no other way of describing it's damage than "completely insignificant". Weak damage skills have no use in this game, and fireball was, and is a proof of that. There is much you could do with it, and will do as my hope suggests. Change it into a fiery explosion that throws the foes around, make it a contagious DoT, that can burn entire crowd if given enough time, make it burn down enemies armour with time, but don't leave it like this. 

 

I trust you understand how to make it better, Scott, but I beg you to listen to what others have to say, too.

 

If you feel that a change will be hated by the frames' users - you probably should rethink that change and prepare to revert it.

Edited September 6, 2013 by GTG3000

[Mighty-Yool]

World on Fire should ignite enemies inside the initial area, and those enemies ignite other enemies, while giving the burn a fairly powerful DoT, then have it otherwise act like it normally does.

[Hybridon]

It would be nice if values where placed, how much does she reduce damage? How much damage does she deal now with the changes? Its hard to give proper feedback without the proper values, just my opinion though.

 

And I mean this for all frames.

[Dochi.]

Maybe some numbers for Overheat? How much does it reduce now? Does Overheat now also has a bigger range? And how much damage does it do now?

[101blubb]

Scrap Overheat altogether if you're going to go through with that change. Four offensive skills with little-to-no utility will be the death of the frame.

 

A suggestion would be something like an AoE knockback on Overheat to give it at least something worthwhile.

Edited September 7, 2013 by 101blubb

[Sahfiel]

I do not like the ember skin changes at all. Please change it back as it was fun for a majority of ember players and factored into why we chose ember. I should not have to roll a Rhino to be defensive and not all female frames should be squish.

 

It also counter balanced the uselessness of world on fire in a vast majority of situations due to other factions besides infested being contained within the game and allowed Ember to have a use in other situations.

 

I like to be a tank and I like to play female frames and I do not like Rhino. I won't play until this is either reverted or a frame is released which fills in the role you have now taken away. It was simply put, a bad decision. Sorry, I like to be candid and frank.

 

As a developer, there is a certain trust. Have us spend resources and time on a frame/class, do not rework the class enough that it no longer fills the roles it previously could. That is a blindside and sort of a betrayal of that trust. Introduce a new frame. If a tank frame is now introduced that is female, I will outright basically know that this was just a way to sell plat. Therefore, if a tank frame is introduced I will craft it, no plat. :D

 

What encourages us to spend time and/or resources on things we have no clue if you will outright obliterate and make unadaptive whatever we work on? It feels the same as a gear treadmill if you step away for a while and nothing works except the new stuff. I want the ability to step away from the game and not feel like my entire arsenal will be useless several months from now and force me to buy new widgets.

 

I forma'ed my ember many times and now I will probably -never- use it again. I did not want to hop onto the Rhino bandwagon and many of your Ember players feel this way.

 

It is true that many of your players are content to move from frame to frame and playstyle to playstyle like locusts. I play other frames but even though Nova and Rhino and et al exist and are able to be incredibly powerful in many situations.. I decided to main Ember. Many ember players are not content to be locusts. If you create an atmosphere that encourages locust type activity, it will surely encourage people to move from game to game. A hive is a hive after all.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sahfiel

[TheGambler_BR]

That was a HORRIBLE decision, DE!

 

Ember's fast becoming a DoT-only frame, and that one-dimentionality of hers will KILL her.

 

I urge you to reconsider any chages to her. PLEASE offer different powers! Rework Fireblast so it instead of damaging, denies space (sort of like bastille, but not quite). Rework World on Fire so it deals damage much like Dota's Luna's ultimate.

 

And Overheat's shift to offensive is a bad, bad move.

Edited September 6, 2013 by TheGambler_BR

[MIRROR_ell]

Being an Ember buff due to her Overheat reduction, I'd say that based on the skin-depth view of this change, it'll be bad for Ember(Overheat was her only utility skill, now changed to another offensive skill which makes all 4 of her skills offensive) but will hold out and test first before commenting further.

DE, prepare for war if this change kills Ember! D:<

EDIT:

My review: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102831-ember-98-feedback-thread/?p=1184175

Edited September 6, 2013 by MIRROR_ell

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

I'm going to be different and comment on what they didn't do. Why does World on Fire still have a target cap? So what if you can move around, it doesn't feel very ultimate when you can only hit a very few amount of things at a time. ):

[lapinas2229]

Change her back now. Overheat is the only ability that keeps her armorless, fragile body from getting crushed. All her abilities are mostly usefull against infested. REVERT OVERHEAT!

Edited September 11, 2013 by lapinas2229

[Veidgrim]

Well at least it saves a mod slot since range mod is no longer needed, What to put on her now...

[lapinas2229]

REVERT EMBERS OVERHEAT. It was her only ability to keep her armorless and fragile body from getting crushed. If not, I demand the 225 platinum I spent on her during closed beta, back.

[-Pharraoh-]

i see...

[merryfistmas]

Agree with Gambler, this was a terrible decision. I'm going to go test ember now and if fireball doesn't one shot phorid then I'm going to be very disappointed.

 

Tested overheat. Against nef anyo his lanka did 315 without overheat. With overheat it did 151 damage. This is more than a 50% damage reduction (52% to be exact) and was with max overheat and max focus.

 

Fireball is still useless but I was excepting this. maxed fireball can't even kill a level 20 grineer commander and the initial damage won't even kill the small guys.

 

Fireblast will now kill level 20 infested, unfortunately it's still useless. It has just enough damage to kill level 50 chargers if they walk though both walls. If I wanted to take a long time to kill level 50 trash mobs I'd take the mods of my weapons.

 

World on fire still damages one target at once and it's not very good damage.

 

Conclusion: ember is now the worst frame in the game along with volt but at least volt is good for boss farming. Scott said he fixed the bugs yet World on fire has been bugged for several updates. Ember is now one dimensional and lame. Fire AOE damage on all 4 spells, great job.

 

EMBER

 

Fireball Immolate: Target is consumed by raging flame, dealing heavy damage it and granting ember energy if it killed the target. Deals double damage to burning targets.

 

Overheat: Deals fire damage to nearby enemies and fuels a flame barrier for every point of damage done this way. Flame barrier partly absorbs incoming damage.

 

How much is partly though. All of it, roughly half of it, scaling with how filled the barrier is?

 

Fire Blast Backdraft: Slams the ground, causing a violent backdraft pulling nearby targets some distance towards ember. Creates a circular perimeter of fire at this location dealing heavy damage to any crossing it.

 

The pull isn't of the same magnitude (pun intended) as mag's, it would have shorter range and pulls a set distance instead of all the way to centre. Radius of the flame perimeter is pull radius-pull distance, trapping pulled targets inside.

 

World on Fire Infeno: Deals damage over time to all targets in range, scaling with proximity to ember.

 

 

I posted this in a thread earlier but I think it needs to be seen here as well. While not perfect, these changes would greatly improve the fun, synergy, and usefulness of ember.

Edited September 7, 2013 by merryfistmas

[Hoezell]

I think Ember will need a rework later, or she will be like the old times when she was kinda useless in high level gameplay. But I still need to test those changes.

[CrispyNoodle]

game won't let me login

[Icebreccer]

Ember was NEVER meant to be tank. Changing Overheat is good and all, but making it rather useless is beyond my comprehension. Ember is supposed to be a weak caster frame so why should it have a skill that forces her to stick close to the enemies?

Scrap the Fire Skin altogether and replace it with another AoE move. OR you can just keep the Fire Skin as it is, BUT make it affect all the party members like Speed currently works on Volt. Then having a Ember + Rhino combo for example would be just awesome.

Oh, and I say it again. Ember was NEVER meant to be a tank. Quit your damn whining about her lost defensive abilities. She shouldn't have had those in the beginning.

[Albiner]

please don't

[JerichoFayne]

This seems like a poor decision in both the short run & the long run of the game.  Ember's only non-damage ability was Overheat.  With 4 damage abilities she is officially a 1-trick pony with little-to-no usage outside of that role.

 

The fire damage is semi-useful in the lower levels of the game, but as enemy levels increases, the utility of these powers rapidly approaches zero.  That's the short-term problem.  But even if there is an armor overhaul / elemental damage buff, this change removes all incoming damage mitigation & crowd control.  That's a long-term problem that won't go away.

 

I'd suggest returning Overheat to it's previous form, but also altering Fireblast to be less of a damage ability & more of a crowd control ability that pushes enemies out of the circle, causes them to experience the "on fire" animation which effectively temporarily stuns them, etc.  This would make it more along the lines of snow globe, except that it mitigates incoming melee instead of incoming gunfire.

[Mak_Gohae]

Ember goes back to her original state which is strange compared the other frame changes which usually change the playstyle.

And..................... like it.

 

This was the frame that taught me how to run and gun in Warframe. Cause once the enemy took your shields down you were dead so.... i didnt even let them take my shields down.

 

So back to running and gunning with her.

[TheGambler_BR]

Ember was NEVER meant to be tank. Changing Overheat is good and all, but making it rather useless is beyond my comprehension. Ember is supposed to be a weak caster frame so why should it have a skill that forces her to stick close to the enemies?

Scrap the Fire Skin altogether and replace it with another AoE move. OR you can just keep the Fire Skin as it is, BUT make it affect all the party members like Speed currently works on Volt. Then having a Ember + Rhino combo for example would be just awesome.

Oh, and I say it again. Ember was NEVER meant to be a tank. Quit your damn whining about her lost defensive abilities. She shouldn't have had those in the beginning.

 

The only reason we clinged to her defensive skill is because it was the ONLY ONE worth using.

 

So far, there is still little to no reason to use anything beyond overheat due to the simple fact that her damaging powers are more affected by armor than Volt's. And we all know how useless volt is.

[Icebreccer]

This seems like a poor decision in both the short run & the long run of the game.  Ember's only non-damage ability was Overheat.  With 4 damage abilities she is officially a 1-trick pony with little-to-no usage outside of that role.

 

The fire damage is semi-useful in the lower levels of the game, but as enemy levels increases, the utility of these powers rapidly approaches zero.  That's the short-term problem.  But even if there is an armor overhaul / elemental damage buff, this change removes all incoming damage mitigation & crowd control.  That's a long-term problem that won't go away.

That's funny. At least I had a great time with the "Survive or DIE" alert yesterday with my Ember's World on Fire. Take a cozy inside corner and just keep spamming that move. What is it with people underestimating the World on Fire nowadays?

The only reason we clinged to her defensive skill is because it was the ONLY ONE worth using.

So far, there is still little to no reason to use anything beyond overheat due to the simple fact that her damaging powers are more affected by armor than Volt's. And we all know how useless volt is.

Then why not ask them to revise the whole frame instead of bringing back the "one and only" useful skill on her? Besides I find World on Fire pretty darn useful nowadays. Perhaps you don't have a fully pumped Ember in your arsenal.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Judqment8

[theammostore]

Thank you for this change DE. I appreciate it. When I get a chance I shall test out Ember and see how she does. I expect great things from this.

 

EDIT: everybody. Get over it. I'm a horrible player, but I never used Overheat. It never did anything for me. Anytime I used it I only used it to get rid of Poison DoT from toxics. I never, EVER, found it to be useful in any way, as any time I wanted to use it, I would just get stunlocked by something, or I would die anyway from the massive amount of firepower being poured on me. Maxed out Overheat and Focus. Anytime I needed it I was already dead. This now let's me kill the #@*&amp;&#036;@s that are trying to kill me, while still giving some sort of defensive benefit. It's fine. It's good. If you say it was the only one worth using, then maybes start asking for all the other defensive bonus abilities to get a rework into what overheat was. Ember is a caster, caster are squishy.

Edited September 6, 2013 by theammostore

[Sahfiel]

Please also keep in mind you already have a glass cannon that is 100% effective at all situations thus nullifying the reason for this new Ember to exist fully and completely. It just won't work. Nova exists. Ember will not compete due to the nature of their powers unless you seriously made Ember some next level stuff. People didn't complain about Ember as much as they complain about Nova. You'd have to change Ember to the point that they would be in an uproar for this change to be warranted at all and be anything other than a consistent downgrade.

 

Do not believe in some mistaken delusion that you have appeased any Ember players which previously wanted her for being a dps glass cannon.

 

They -ALL- (maybe except a small cult) moved to Nova because if that is what they wanted, that is the frame they shifted to. Fact.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sahfiel