New Stealth Mechanic

[FatRefrigerator]

I know there is already a pinned thread for stealth ideas, but ideas tend to get lost in there. I got some positive feedback on this idea so I thought I'd make a thread for it.

I also made a thread regarding a stealth stat for different warframes, the link to that thread is:

https://forums.warfr...uflage-modstat/

So here's my take on how the stealth mechanics should work:

There needs to be multiple levels of awareness and detection:

1. Clean Slate - The way it is when you enter the mission. No one has any idea that there is a threat on the ship/station. Enemies are very casual about patrolling and aren't going to be very keen to notice anything.

2. Alerted - The ship has been notified of the presence of threats. Enemies have no idea where you are at the current moment, however, they are more actively patrolling are keeping their eyes open for anything suspicious. Enemies in the alerted state will adjust their lines of sight towards a door if are within range to hear it open. (So don't just walk straight through a door as it opens, wait a moment, or follow behind an enemy before the door closes behind them.) Enemies in the alerted state will enter the "hunting" state if they recieve any sort of contact, soft or hard.

3. Hunting - Your exact location has been compromised; you either stayed in one room for too long after a firefight and reinforcements arrived or an enemy got a hard contact on you and reported it to his allies in the near vicinity. Enemies will flank you and close on your last known location.

Now using these above levels there should be multiple triggers and methods for being detected and avoiding detection:

Note: These methods of detection are all assuming that you are in the "Clean Slate" state, unless otherwise noted.

1. Audible Contact - Soft - An enemy heard you running(not sprinting) within 10m. The enemy and any others within 10m will enter an "alerted" state. They will stop their previous patrol route and begin to search the location the sound came from.

If sound suppressors are added as a weapon attachment then if an enemy within 10m hears you fire a suppressed weapon it will be considered a "soft audible contact".

Audible Contact - Hard - An enemy heard a gunshot or heard you full-out sprinting. They will enter the "hunting" state and will call for the assistance of allies in the same room. In addition, enemies in adjacent rooms will enter the "alerted" state if the contact was a gunshot.

2. Visual Contact - Soft - An enemy saw you in their peripheral vision within 10-20m or saw you cross their direct line of sight at a distance greater than 50m for a moment of less than 1.5 secs(i.e. you sprinted or dove across their LOS). They will take up the "alerted" state and patrol in the direction of the contact. They will ask for backup from any allies within 10m.

Visual Contact - Hard - An enemy saw you in their direct LOS for more than 1.5 secs(this time can be changed, just a placeholder). Enemies will enter the "hunting" state and converge on the location of the contact with the support of allies in the room.

Edit: Note: The stealth stat (from my thread linked above) would modify the range and effectiveness of detection via "soft" contacts. Additionally, the stealth stat of certain frames may affect both visual and audible contacts, or one or the other.

Regarding alerting the ship to your presence:

Enemies will only attempt to set the ship to alerted after having been in the "hunting" state for over 5 seconds. If there only 1 or 2 enemies looking for you in the "hunting" state they will search for you on their own, however, if there are 3 or more, one will move to a terminal after the 5 seconds have passed. If an enemy sees a dead body they will head towards the nearest terminal but will not notify any allies in the vicinity. (This is because they assume they will make it to the terminal alive.)

There should be a set amount of time (3 seconds?) that the enemy must stay at the terminal before the alert is actually sent out. As it currently stands an enemy only has to be at a terminal for a mere instant for the alert to get out.

There needs to be a visual indicator of sorts that is omni-directional and works similar to the damage feedback indicator. It would simply be a bar that would point to the general direction(s) in which you are closest to being detected. It would phase from white to yellow to red depending on how close you are to being detected.

I know this is a long post and I'm sorry if I reiterated any ideas that have been put on the table already. I just wanted to get out a comprehensive system for managing the stealth system.

Edited April 13, 2013 by FatRefrigerator

[FallenKingErzon]

So pretty much the metal gear solid, stealth system is what I'm reading?

Edited February 20, 2013 by FallenKingErzon

[FatRefrigerator]

So pretty much the metal gear solid, stealth system is what I'm reading?

Never played the game, wouldn't know.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'd like this system.

[FatRefrigerator]

I'd like this system.

Thanks! keep promoting it because the stealth placeholder we have now needs to go

[Scherhardt]

+1. I would'nt mind MGS mechanics here, stealth is stealth.

[FatRefrigerator]

+1. I would'nt mind MGS mechanics here, stealth is stealth.

Is this seriously how Metal gear solid's stealth system works? Because I swear to you I thought this up on my own. I've never even played that game

[Scherhardt]

Is this seriously how Metal gear solid's stealth system works? Because I swear to you I thought this up on my own. I've never even played that game

Yup.. You should play it, one of the best stealth games out there. Also one of the originators of the stealth genre.

[neKroMancer]

This is MGS system, played it to death a few years ago. Corpus ship with security camera rminds me of MGS1 from PS1.

Snake eater is the best, ever!

[FatRefrigerator]

I was thinking more along the lines of a Ghost Recon or a Splinter Cell, but hey MGS works too.

So, apart from me unknowingly reproducing their stealth system, would this be a good fit for warframe?

[neKroMancer]

MGS approach to stealth is depend on player's skill more than the actual stealth. Player who play in a 'traditional' way, camolague snake/hide in a box/use environment to his advantage usually take around 10-15 hours to finish MGS3 (I love this the most so it serves as an example). However, playing this game in an agressively stealthy fashion result in a far shorter completion time (5 hours). Player need to be extremely skillful to do so.

Warframe could use some aspects of MGS stealth system. Silent takedown, silent weapon, AI LOS/hearing range. However, to make this form of stealth mechanic to work, DE have to buff the AI a lot to be passable. The environment also needed to be changed in order to give players places to hide out of the guard's sight. In short, in order to create a passable MGS style stealth mechanic, DE probably have to rework the system to accommodate it and change their advertisement into "1st stealth f2p TPS MMO".

I believe that goes against Warframe's 'fast-paced TPS' concept to implement an entire system mentioned in the OP since the game won't be suitable for most players and need the entire team to be on the same page or play solo to do so. These are what I think Warframe could borrow from MGS stealth system with minimal effect on the gameplay.

1. Silent takedown, silent weapons.

2. Camolague. Crawling.

3. Replacing panel alarm with communication officer. Shoot this guy first to prevent more reinforcement.

4. Hiding places or alternative route through the map (hard to tell that the current engine is capable of this since even the vent that we go through the asteroid is a part of the map).

5. Detector type enemy. Dogs in MGS3 can smell the player and bark to catch nearby guard's attention.

6. Trap which can work for or against the players.

7. Distracting the guard while not causing alarm state. (Not sure about this)

Other thing that DE can take example from MGS is boss fight. I reccomend OP to search for The End's boss battle in MGS3, probably the best boss fight of all time, seemlessly combined stealth mechanic with action.

Edited February 20, 2013 by neKroMancer

[tactical_surgeon]

Another thing yall have to think about is not jsut how the enemy will interact but so too the player

I said this in an older thread - Each warframe should have seperate stealth statistics so to make some naturaly more stealthy-

Such as how loud each step of the warframe is walking / running

Also- how easy is the warframe to "notice" - let me explain a little -

If you cross the line of sight with Ash, (if the stealth stats were applied) the enemy may not even notice him

but if Rihno crossed an ememies line of sight he might surely be spotted quickerr

- that is a huge part of the stealth aspect in my opinion

[FatRefrigerator]

Another thing yall have to think about is not jsut how the enemy will interact but so too the player

I said this in an older thread - Each warframe should have seperate stealth statistics so to make some naturaly more stealthy-

Such as how loud each step of the warframe is walking / running

Also- how easy is the warframe to "notice" - let me explain a little -

If you cross the line of sight with Ash, (if the stealth stats were applied) the enemy may not even notice him

but if Rihno crossed an ememies line of sight he might surely be spotted quickerr

- that is a huge part of the stealth aspect in my opinion

I say again, please follow the link in my first post. It talks all about stealth statistics

[Sealgaire]

Yup.. You should play it, one of the best stealth games out there. Also one of the originators of the stealth genre.

Thief was released the same year on PC and had a similar but more immersive, complex and organic stealth system. A simpler system with more feedback such as MGS's might be better for an online coop game, though.

I don't see why they wuoldn't expand the stealth system with features like this if they have the time to. It would create more mission and playstyle variety. The game would have to become difficult enough that passing enemies unseen would be easier than fighting them, at least for some mission types.

[TheNZX]

This leaves a problem on how much EXP is gained and drops. I assume there will be pure stealth missions along with optional stealth.

Some ideas:

1. Drops obtained from security safes of higher drop rates that require a hack. Safes will dissapear if the base is on alert.

2. EXP gain from doing stealth objectives and stealth activities, bonus to EXP gain if not detected in the area.

3. Penalties - For non stealth missions, just lose the chance of safe loot and exp bonus.

4. In a pure stealth mission, you can gain EXP for weapons by completing objectives. This amount will probably be less than the warframe exp gain.

[FatRefrigerator]

This leaves a problem on how much EXP is gained and drops. I assume there will be pure stealth missions along with optional stealth.

Some ideas:

1. Drops obtained from security safes of higher drop rates that require a hack. Safes will dissapear if the base is on alert.

2. EXP gain from doing stealth objectives and stealth activities, bonus to EXP gain if not detected in the area.

3. Penalties - For non stealth missions, just lose the chance of safe loot and exp bonus.

4. In a pure stealth mission, you can gain EXP for weapons by completing objectives. This amount will probably be less than the warframe exp gain.

In response to your ideas:

1.Yeah I agree with this idea, however I think it would be more like the storage lockers all turn red when the ship goes on high alert.

2. Yeah, kinda like the stealth bonus mini-mission now.

3.This is similar to your first idea. Once the mission is compromised and stealth is broken ship-wide, all lockers go into lockdown.

4. Not sure what you mean by this idea, but, uh...yeah sure.

[Scherhardt]

Thief was released the same year on PC and had a similar but more immersive, complex and organic stealth system. A simpler system with more feedback such as MGS's might be better for an online coop game, though.

I don't see why they wuoldn't expand the stealth system with features like this if they have the time to. It would create more mission and playstyle variety. The game would have to become difficult enough that passing enemies unseen would be easier than fighting them, at least for some mission types.

Could'nt agree wtih you more. Though having abit of MGS and Thief is a good idea too.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Scherhardt

[FatRefrigerator]

I don't see why they wuoldn't expand the stealth system with features like this if they have the time to. It would create more mission and playstyle variety. The game would have to become difficult enough that passing enemies unseen would be easier than fighting them, at least for some mission types.

To be honest, I have no idea what they're working on at the moment as far as improving content other than simple bugfixes. Seeing as how the stealth system isn't "bugged" necessarily they may not have this as a priority. I would disagree because they need to make the content more appealing if they want to take this game any further.

[BigEagle22]

I love and support this idea, definitely one of the greater stealth topics, and I would love to see this happen sometimes in Beta.

+1

[Flaming.Flowair]

+1, the gameplay need to be more complexe and that will avoid rush (farm).

[ANG3RF15T]

+1 there should also be a reward or bonus for going through a mission completely undetected :D

[FatRefrigerator]

+1 there should also be a reward or bonus for going through a mission completely undetected :D

Yeah there needs to be some sort of incentive for being stealthy

[Nokturnel]

Yeah there needs to be some sort of incentive for being stealthy

Definitely, as well as silencer mods for guns or guns with silencers on them. Even the snipetron and latron both of which sound as if they have a silencer still alert enemies. Yet smashing a giant Fragor/Gram/Scindo over an enemy's head doesn't make a sound? lol

If they really want to keep the stealth mechanic in game they need to rework it and add some features. Perhaps even a backstab/throat slit animation while being stealthy and using a dagger class weapon.

As well as some kind of indicator to how much noise you're making and how visable you are. It could completely disappear once the alarm has been sounded but until then there should be a way to know besides just hoping they can't see you crouched.

There should also be a way to distract enemies, maybe once silenced guns are added, shooting it at a location will have them move to investigate the location it hit.

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Edited February 25, 2013 by Nokturnel

[FatRefrigerator]

Definitely, as well as silencer mods for guns or guns with silencers on them. Even the snipetron and latron both of which sound as if they have a silencer still alert enemies. Yet smashing a giant Fragor/Gram/Scindo over an enemy's head doesn't make a sound? lol

If they really want to keep the stealth mechanic in game they need to rework it and add some features. Perhaps even a backstab/throat slit animation while being stealthy and using a dagger class weapon.

As well as some kind of indicator to how much noise you're making and how visable you are. It could completely disappear once the alarm has been sounded but until then there should be a way to know besides just hoping they can't see you crouched.

There should also be a way to distract enemies, maybe once silenced guns are added, shooting it at a location will have them move to investigate the location it hit.

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+1 to all these ideas, I like them a lot

[Nightchills]

Agreed +1