Counter Heavy Caliber's Accuracy

[TheSphynx]

10.4 was released with a highly despised change adding a accuracy decrease to the Heavy Caliber mod. Originally, DE stated that it wasn't intended to have a mods that didn't give any negative effects. For some reason, they singled out on the -Recoil weapons.

Prior to this change, EVERY Corrupt Mod had a negative effect that could be countered. For example, if I equipped 'Critical Delay' (+48% Crit Chance | -36% Fire Rate) I could counter the negative effect of this mod by adding a Speed Trigger or Shred mod into the mix.

With the new Heavy Caliber (165% Damage | -55% Accuracy) equipped, there is absolutely no way to counter the negative aspect of this mod. We don't have a '+% Accuracy' mod to do so. If we did, what would it do to weapons without this mod? The main point is, we cannot counter this mod; EVERY OTHER corrupt mod can be countered by its 'single counterpart'.

This also brings me to another point. We singled out this mod when you have Novas and Mags running around spamming skill at a 25% energy cost and Heavily Caliber was the mod that needed to be change? As I stated in one of my previous posts (found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119841-corrupt-mods-skills-with-no-negative-effect/) EVERY warframe has AT LEAST 1 skill that ONLY benefits from the proper Corrupt Mod. (See the list in that post if you are confused.)

Mag and Nova walk away with 3 skill that only gain benefits from a single Corrupt Mods. While Ember and Vauban get the least benefits from any of the corrupt mods. If we are trying to balance these new Corrupt mods on the fly, why are we not doing anything about the Warframe ones? Some Warframes only benefit beyond belief with these mods. Others need to make at least one big sacrifice to use them.

Is this the type of stuff that gets brought up in DE meetings?
We're worried about adding a completely new game stat to a Rifle/Pistol mod without adding a single counterpart.
We're trying to balance this game, which is infamously known by it's community for it's imbalances.
Weapons with no-recoil need to be nerfed. Mag and Nova can spam skills for less energy with no negative effect.
Working as Intended.

What about all the people that brought Heavy Caliber or Magnum Force to max rank? Now, they have a different mod than what they asked for. It takes A RIDICULOUS amount of resources to Max Rank these mods and you're just going to change it without any official notice or releasing a counterpart?

As someone brought up in my previous thread, it's like going to buy a Ferrari (Pre-Change Heavy Caliber). You spend an incredible amount of resources (Cores/Credits) on this vehicle because when described, it feels like it fits your needs perfectly (Recoil-less weapons). When you go to pick up the car, they sold you a Lamborghini instead (Post-Change Heavy Caliber). They are both nice cars, but that isn't what was originally described when you spent all your resources. Don't you think you deserve the option of a refund or compensation of your resources?



EDIT: To further add to this topic I want show a visual way of how these changes effected different weapons.
Lets say pre-change, the Flux Rifle was given a 0; symbolizing how much Heavy Chamber negatively impacted this weapon. We'll give a Braton Prime a 2, since it's impact was pretty significant. Also, we'll give the Dread a 0 as it was also negatively unaffected by this mod.

Flux Rifle: 0 | Braton Prime: 2 | Dread: 0

Now, instead of adding a flat amount of recoil to weapons without it, they added a new Accuracy system. This affects EVERY weapon. So we will add 2 points to each example weapons above (To symbolize the NEW ACCURACY system), except bows and snipers have been affected DRASTICALLY (almost to the point where this mod is unusable).

Flux Rifle: 2 | Braton Prime: 4 | Dread: 8

As you can see, both weapons have been affected with the same rate, but the Flux Rifle STILL performs A LOT better. So what did this new system change? The mod is still performing FAR better on weapons without recoil (except bows/launchers) versus weapons that already have recoil.

If anything, I think the change almost makes the situation worse. Most people that use a gun with recoil were satisfied with the previous version of this mod; now, many are just taking the mod off. While Flux/Synapse/Ignis/Embolist users don't even thinking twice about removing it, as it doesn't impact them as much as recoil gun users.


EDIT: According to information provided in Livestream 15, Heavy Caliber and Magnum Force will be getting some "tweaking".

For a more mathematical discussion about this topic AND community purposed solutions, please head over to NetSlayer's thread and leave some feedback!
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/120781-community-effort-to-answer-recoil-vs-spread-issue-on-heavy-calibermagnum-force-warning-math/

Edited October 18, 2013 by TheSphynx

[Scherhardt]

Give everyone free cores and credits or give a triple core and credit drop rate event. 

[Caramelaion]

refund or remake the heavy caliber mod is a good idea, bump.
 

do something DE that change cost me like 800 cores e.e

[W4RH3AD]

Agree! Weapons were already mostly recoil-less.. having a bit of recoil isn't that hard....no need to change it to accuracy.

[EganMC]

They changed this because people abused the bad side of this mod by using it with the Flux Rifle and the Dera.

Which have no recoil whatsoever, ergo no downside

[Hexosaurus]

As someone brought up in my previous thread, it's like going to buy a Ferrari (Pre-Change Heavy Caliber). You spend an incredible amount of resources (Cores/Credits) on this vehicle because when described, it feels like it fits your needs perfectly (Recoil-less weapons). When you go to pick up the car, they sold you a Lamborghini instead (Post-Change Heavy Caliber). They are both nice cars, but that isn't what was originally described when you spent all your resources. Don't you think you deserve the option of a refund or compensation of your resources?

Not to be an outright $&*^, but almost all recoil-less weapons are already extremely overpowered. They needed to be balanced to prevent them from being ridiculously overpowered, you wanted more damage, well you're going to have to deal with some spread.

 

Think of it as being given a Delorian, and you adore it because when described to you by TimeMachines'R'Us upon receiving it, it feels like it fits your needs perfectly (being able to hit 88MPH). You spend resources on this vehicle to make it look like a pimp's car with some tricked out suspension and a new turbo engine (to make it hit that 88MPH a little fast). You then take advantage of its time travel abilities to see your father before he died and apologize for being such a $&*^. But then the government passes a law that restricts Delorians' from going above 87MPH, because frankly, they don't want people going back in time and making millions. Do you then go to the chop-shop you got the turbo engine & tricked out suspension from and ask for a refund? No. Because it is not their fault that you took advantage of something and felt the need to make it suit you (Upgrading the mod). 

 

TL;DR It was your decision to upgrade something that would be overpowered for no-recoil weapons, which would be an imminent nerf/fix. You could've left it as the normal stock mod but you took advantage of it. This is no-one's fault but yours.

 

(I HOPE TO @(*()$ GOD this makes sense makes sense, I'm way too tired to be thinking of scenarios.)

Edited October 17, 2013 by Hexosaurus

[TheSphynx]

They changed this because people abused the bad side of this mod by using it with the Flux Rifle and the Dera.

Which have no recoil whatsoever, ergo no downside

That has already been established... But to change it without a counterpart, option of refund, or official notice is ridiculous. Also, what about Mag and Nova that throw on Fleeting Expertise and face no penalties? Your argument is invalid.

[RocketBoy_cn]

refund or remake the heavy caliber mod is a good idea

[TheSphynx]

TL;DR It was your decision to upgrade something that would be overpowered for no-recoil weapons, which would be an imminent nerf/fix. You could've left it as the normal stock mod but you took advantage of it. This is no-one's fault but yours.

So, you are telling me not to max Fleeting Expertise and not to put it on Nova and Mag because that is taking advantage of Warframes that aren't effected by power duration? Which would, by your statement, lead to "an imminent nerf/fix"? Your argument is COMPLETELY invalid.

[Xuande]

Also, what about Mag and Nova that throw on Fleeting Expertise and face no penalties? Your argument is invalid.

 

Mag faces a penalty on its Bullet Attractor and Nova on its Null Star when equipped with Fleeting Expertise. 

[General_Krull]

Mag faces a penalty on its Bullet Attractor and Nova on its Null Star when equipped with Fleeting Expertise. 

And those are such widely used powers, man the penalty really does hit them where it hurts!

[TheSphynx]

And those are such widely used powers, man the penalty really does hit them where it hurts!

Thank you, Krull. I'm glad to see people with actual knowledge of the game posting.

 

Mag faces a penalty on its Bullet Attractor and Nova on its Null Star when equipped with Fleeting Expertise. 

As Krull stated. Null Star and Bullet Attractor are by far those Warframes least used skills. Also, the least viable when it comes to high level missions.

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[General_Krull]

Thank you, Krull. I'm glad to see people with actual knowledge of the game posting.

 

As Krull stated. Null Star and Bullet Attractor are by far those Warframes least used skills. Also, the least viable when it comes to high level missions.

To be fair, Null star does have some use in high level missions. It staggers enemies that maybe sneaked up on you.  But again nobody ever uses it, you're better off paying attention and spamming Mprime.

[Xuande]

Thank you, Krull. I'm glad to see people with actual knowledge of the game posting.

 

As Krull stated. Null Star and Bullet Attractor are by far those Warframes least used skills. Also, the least viable when it comes to high level missions.

 

So what if they aren't as useful lategame? Is endgame balancing the only important balancing? Players still use them, and they are penalized for it with the new frame mods. The point is that it's not at all comparable with the situation with Heavy Calibur/Magnum Force.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Xuande

[TheSphynx]

So what if they aren't as useful lategame? Is endgame balancing the only important balancing? Players still use them, and they are penalized for it with the new frame mods. The point is that it's not at all comparable with the situation with Heavy Calibur/Magnum Force.

How is it not comparable? Nova can press 4 once and clear a whole room before you shoot your 'recoil-less' weapon once. As long as ONE of those enemies drop ONE energy orb, she can do it all over again. Skill spamming was considered such a big issue that DE actually came up with an Revamped Energy System prototype. Instead of helping the issues, with these mods they made it worse.

You have 2 GIGANTIC aoe nukes (arguably the best in the game) and you're telling me you're going to stop and refresh your 150 Damage per second Null Star? With Max Fleeting Expertise you lose 4 particles, losing 600 Single Target Damage over 5-6 seconds; AND, you lower Molecular Prime's energy cost to 40. Dealing 800 AOE Damage, you can cast 2.5 for the price of one with this mod. How you could even consider using Null Star (without Fleeting Expertise) over MP (With Fleeting Expertise) is beyond me.

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[Xuande]

How is it not comparable? Nova can press 4 once and clear a whole room before you shoot your 'recoil-less' weapon once. As long as ONE of those enemies drop ONE energy orb, she can do it all over again. Skill spamming was considered such a big issue that DE actually came up with an Revamped Energy System prototype. Instead of helping the issues, with these mods they made it worse.

You have 2 GIGANTIC aoe nukes (arguably the best in the game) and your telling me your going to stop and refresh your 150 Damage per second Null Star? With Max Fleeting Expertise you lose 4 particles, losing 600 Single Target Damage over 5-6 seconds; AND, you lower Molecular Prime's energy cost to 40. Dealing 800 AOE Damage, you can cast 2.5 for the price of one with this mod. How you could even consider using Null Star (without Fleeting Expertise) over MP (With Fleeting Expertise) is beyond me.

I wasn't aware we were discussing warframe power balancing. Here I thought I was advising on the disparity between comparing one set of mods without disadvantages on certain weapons with one set of mods with clear, albeit minute, disadvantages to each frame.

If you've exhausted all arguments concerning Heavy/Magnum, don't try to link a whole other balancing issue with it.

[Vorigan]

Mag faces a penalty on its Bullet Attractor and Nova on its Null Star when equipped with Fleeting Expertise. 

 

In the same way some weapons are not affected negatively by these mods, some warframes/abilities do so too. And it's a big deal if they are extremely powerful as the ones mentioned.

 

Also, OP stated correctly how you cannot counter the accuracy problem, unlike all the other mods.

 

 

I still have the same opinion as I had commented on the previous thread, and thanks for bringing up this subject again, after this almost-useless change. They should concider changes that affect both weapon and warframe mods, even if that means leave them as they are or change them altogether.

 

 

On a side note, it is interesting how this loss of accuracy makes some weapons not be affected again really. Apart from the flux that has no real loss, there is the ogris which can prove more useful in some if not most of the cases; then there are ignis and embolist that appear to be quite better since they have a bigger AoE and you also don't have to aim precisely.

 

 

Edit: forgot to mention how much this mod now affects negatively weapons like snipers, bows and most rifles, which is such a shame since they are already pretty underpowered and not really played.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Vorigan

[TheSphynx]

I wasn't aware we were discussing warframe power balancing. Here I thought I was advising on the disparity between comparing one set of mods without disadvantages on certain weapons with one set of mods with clear, albeit minute, disadvantages to each frame.

If you've exhausted all arguments concerning Heavy/Magnum, don't try to link a whole other balancing issue with it.

No, we are discussing the Corrupt Mods and how DE is going about changing them. They singled out the -Recoil Mods for the reason of "There were no negative effects for guns without recoil". When there are much higher compatibility/balancing issues when using the Corrupt Mods on warframes. We are discussing them changing these mods without them offering a counterpart as all the other Corrupt Mods have. Also, changing them without official notice or option to refund.

Your argument was basically claiming that every warframe has a gameplay changing experience when using these Corrupt Mods. You pointed out Mag's Bullet Attractor and Nova's Null Star. Sure, it negatively effects THOSE skills (Which most experienced players would say are the least used/viable skills those Warframes possess) but when it comes to weighing out the advantages and disadvantages, there is way more of a gain than a loss. 

Look at it this way. We'll give advantages and disadvantages ball park numbers based on effects on ALL skills. First number being advantage, second being disadvantages. You could also say this would be a rough estimate of how many people (out of 100) would use that mod on said weapon/warframe.

Pre-Change HC on Flux Rifle: 100 | 0

Post-Change HC on Flux Rifle: 85 | 15

Pre-Change HC on Lanka: 100 | 0

Post-Change HC on Lanka: 60 | 40

Fleeting Expertise on Mag: 90 | 10

Fleeting Expertise on Nova: 95 | 5

Fleeting Expertise on Ember: 50 | 50

As you can see, the mods would still be used in most cases. It was definitely a needed change, but as I said, that isn't what this discussion is about. It's about not giving people an official notice, not offering a refund of resources, and not offering a counterpart.

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[Detexion]

I agree with Xuande.

 

The balancing of warframes is totally different from balancing weapons. It doesnt matter whether they use those affected powers or not. One could argue that instead of putting on an 11-point Fleeting expertise on a nova, you could put on a flow and maybe not need an energy orb until the end of the mission (you probably have siphon on). These corrupted mods were meant to have a bad side. They DO have a bad side on warframes such as mag and nova (though not as evident due to popular playstyle). The vehicle argument does not fit this at all either.

 

The point is, these mods purposely have to have a negative effect to counter balance its strong positive effects. I have no idea why you are asking to be allowed to put two serrations on a weapon just because it doesn't have recoil.

[Roltair]

The point is, these mods purposely have to have a negative effect to counter balance its strong positive effects. I have no idea why you are asking to be allowed to put two serrations on a weapon just because it doesn't have recoil.

They aren't asking for it to have no negative effect. They're asking for a negative effect that can be worked with.

 

I'm sure people would have complained a lot less if they chose fire rate over accuracy, despite a lot of corrupted mods affecting fire rate.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Roltair

[TheSphynx]

The point is, these mods purposely have to have a negative effect to counter balance its strong positive effects. I have no idea why you are asking to be allowed to put two serrations on a weapon just because it doesn't have recoil.

Where did I say anywhere in my post that there shouldn't have been a change? The change was needed. As I have said 5+ times already, that isn't what this thread is about. I'll even quote myself.

 

It was definitely a needed change, but as I said, that isn't what this discussion is about. It's about not giving people an official notice, not offering a refund of resources, and not offering a counterpart.

Did you not read the thread? When it comes to the point where I have to quote myself, it seems as if you didn't.

 

 

One could argue that instead of putting on an 11-point Fleeting expertise on a nova, you could put on a flow and maybe not need an energy orb until the end of the mission (you probably have siphon on). These corrupted mods were meant to have a bad side. They DO have a bad side on warframes such as mag and nova (though not as evident due to popular playstyle).

No, nobody would use that argument. Not a single player (with a slight bit of game knowledge and common sense) would build Flow OVER Fleeting Expertise on Nova or Mag. Popular playstyle usually means it's the most effective playstyle. You're not going to use a 25 energy Null Star over a 40 energy Molecular Prime. You're not going to use a 75 energy Bullet Attractor over a 10 energy Pull or 40 energy Crush. With Flow you are not changing the Damage:Energy ratio. You're still getting the same 'Energy Orb:Damage' ratio. The only way to change that is with Power Efficiency. ANYONE would gladly sacrifice their most underused/useless skill to be able to cast their stronger/more effective skill 2.5x more.

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[Triskelon]

Tbh I like having a little bit of spread on my Flux rifle.

Now I don't have to have pin point accuracy..  Plus its funny watching my laser spazz out while it kills anyhting it comes in contact with.

Kinda reminds me of the Gatling Lasers from Fallout XD 

[Shehriazad]

They changed this because people abused the bad side of this mod by using it with the Flux Rifle and the Dera.

Which have no recoil whatsoever, ergo no downside

 

Dera is only okayish to begin with because it's damage is bad against 2 of the 3 factions... Flux Rifle is still accurate enough to do headshots with it all the time and Ignis seems to have benefitted from this change actually....

 

The only weapons that are really hurt from the change are weapons with SLOW projectiles that rely on you being able to aim, calculate enemy movement and generally rely more on your skill to hit enemies all the time....namely things like one-shot sniper type weapons.

 

Look at bows....slowest freaking projectiles....the bullets fly in an arc....this already makes it really hard to reliably aim for headshots...and if that wasn't enough they're also on the low end of dps.... the new mod ensured they stay competetive to the high dps weapons at least somewhat (still not being close in paper dps) and giving it a reasonable downside would be just fine...

 

But an uncounterable downside that you also have no control over since you can't know which side of the screen the bullet will disappear to is just a bad joke :/

Edited October 17, 2013 by Shehriazad

[Beean]

As someone brought up in my previous thread, it's like going to buy a Ferrari (Pre-Change Heavy Caliber). You spend an incredible amount of resources (Cores/Credits) on this vehicle because when described, it feels like it fits your needs perfectly (Recoil-less weapons). When you go to pick up the car, they sold you a Lamborghini instead (Post-Change Heavy Caliber). They are both nice cars, but that isn't what was originally described when you spent all your resources. Don't you think you deserve the option of a refund or compensation of your resources? Discuss.

It isn't the same, unless you add the caveat that when you went to buy the Ferrari from the factory they sold it to you with the condition that if they needed to make changes to the model during production they could, for whatever reasons they felt the changes needed to be made. So getting your Lamborghini instead of a Ferrari was covered as part of the initial agreement. I have put over 600 hr's into this game and refuse to Forma or sell anything I level, if a mod changes...well probability would state that it was to be expected.

 

I am just pointing out that your examples need to have sameness to them to work = P

[TheSphynx]

It isn't the same, unless you add the caveat that when you went to buy the Ferrari from the factory they sold it to you with the condition that if they needed to make changes to the model during production they could, for whatever reasons they felt the changes needed to be made. So getting your Lamborghini instead of a Ferrari was covered as part of the initial agreement. I have put over 600 hr's into this game and refuse to Forma or sell anything I level, if a mod changes...well probability would state that it was to be expected.

 

I am just pointing out that your examples need to have sameness to them to work = P

Not sure what anything here has to do with this topic but thanks for your opinion. If you refuse to Forma anything you level, it's possible you fear commitment. For the people that don't have a fear of commitment and spent MOST their hard-earned resources on an item to be later changed into something completely different, without a counterpart mod or option to refund, seems unjust.