A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Othergrunty]

As much as it would pain me to lose all the mods i played so long to get them, i agree that the game can't keep existing on them like this.

 

This is neither a good trading card game nor a good shooter. It's a mess and looks more like a placeholder for a better system that never came.

 

I felt strangely nostalgic recently when Steve showed those Alpha scenes of Warframe during a livestream, simply because the game looked far more basic and therefor far more improvable in that state. The irony is that i joined this game after the mod system, so i basicly grew up with it but never truely came to appriciate it either.

 

However as much as it's great of you to make such a well thought out system, i fear by now it's too late for this game.

Your concept would have worked wonderfully if it would have replaced the mod system a few months after it's introduction, but now it's in the game for so long and the game has come out for PS4 aswell, that i doubt they are still capable of making such a massive change. Especialy with people who would complain about having wasted their money on the mod packs or on weapons, which are suddently not totaly overpowered.

 

Still if you don't mind i'd like to suggest an addition. Mainly for the Aura system which you didn't adressed.

 

The Auras are currently tied to the mod system so of course with something like your idea they would need to get an overhaul aswell.

 

My idea would be to tie them to specific Warframes. Each Warframe should have an aura unique to them installed when they are build. Said aura would level up with the Warframe, with 3 levels of the frame giving the aura 1 level (for example at Level 15 the Aura has reached level 5) and after you maxed a Warframe at level 30 the aura should become detachable, so you can use them in another Warframe you maxed aswell. Once fully leveled the aura can be kept regardless of the frame.

This would give each Warframe an individual starting advantage that would benefit the entire team. It would also encourage players to try out the other warframes but not forcing them to keep them just for the aura. Having multiple auras meanwhile would allow further customization of each frame by giving them auras of other frames.

 

For example Excalibur having an aura that boosts health and shield of team mates in close proximity to him could be installed in a Loki, who would prefer using him as team worker rather than rusher. A Rhino meanwhile could have Loki's aura that prevents enemies from activating alerts in a certain proximity when wanting to make a solo stealth run.

 

Of course this system would require each aura to be more special than just "boost rifle damage by 20%". They would also need to not be stackable with other auras since that could create another min-maxing situation where teams only use a single mod because the others are not good enough. Instead the strongest aura would override those of the same type with a lower level.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I read this system, and I'm thinking... this is probably too big a change.

 

Regardless, the basics of the proposed system are: regarding the warframe and weapon mod system, just split the current 10/8 slots into 3 groupings of maybe 3-4 slots, each with their own point pools and specific mod types (like offense/defense/utility for frames.)

 

Ditch the raw +damage% mods like serration, pressure point, hornet strike, etc.  This one I agree with because frankly, they're necessary.  I know someone will just have to play devil's advocate, but it's the truth.  One isn't going into higher level content without a raw damage mod of a suitable rank.  They'll simply waste all their ammo in the first few rooms or first 5 minutes of a mission trying to kill things.  Take the max rank modifier of these mods, divide it by 30, and apply this value to the weapon with each rank the weapon gains.  Now players won't have to focus on finding these mods to make it through tougher missions with spongier enemies.  Puncture, impact, and slash, and each elemental damage type is enough choice.  These raw +damage% mods just soak up a slot in a mandatory fashion because every other damage mod benefits from them.  It's no longer a choice.

 

I think just about everything else about the system is mostly fine, however, personally.  Yes, I can see how One might say redirect, steel weave, vitality, etc are necessary, but they're not.  Frames already upgrade their health, shields, and energy pools with rank.  In that regard, redirect and vitality really are optional boosters.  And while the OPs example does make a point in there being potential for worthlessly idiotic builds, a lot of the mods he used in that example are more like supplements for personal taste.  Sure, there are better mods.  Not everyone uses their abilities enough to justify mods like focus or flow or what-have-you.

 

For the most part, I think Warframe's biggest problems with the mod system is that some mods are underwhelming - either because they amount to virtually nothing (+status%,) or are horrifically situational and often underwhelming anyway (like undying will in most cases) - while some mods are detrimentally mandatory towards game play (see: serration, etc.)  There's some fat that needs to be culled, and of course, some real consideration towards the impact 2.0 damage and mods make on mod choices.  

 

The worst part, the part that rings the loudest with me about the OPs post (besides raw damage mods,) is that all of our customization is mostly subject to the random number generator gods.  It seems infested are being phased out as a common enemy in missions.  Last I checked, redirect only comes from two sources:  Infested ancients (which could show up as early as Venus if I recall) and elite Grineer Lancers, which only pop up as level 21+ monsters.  For a newer player, lacking the shields can be brutal, as health isn't nearly as easy to recover.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Littleman88

[alocrius]

This looks like it would do for mods what the new damage system has done for weapons.  Honestly, there are so many issues and limitations with the current mod system that a re-work along the lines you are suggesting is an obvious necessity.  I hope DE continues with the brave strokes they are making and seriously, seriously considers the massive benefits changes like this would offer Warframe.  Well done for the in-depth presentation and visual aids (spoilers might be a good idea though).  I plan to read this more carefully and give more in-depth feedback.  Just right off the bat however the separation and customization of abilities alone would be a giant step forward.

Edited November 26, 2013 by alocrius

[Onihikage]

I like the ideas presented, especially for fleshing out the melee system, which currently leans towards "charge attack or don't bother". The focus on DPS for weapons and resilience for warframes has felt quite limiting, especially with priority #1 of any weapon being to increase base damage. I was pondering the idea of doing more specialized mod slots, expanding the whole "aura mods" spiel, kind of into a multi-tier thing like you have in the OP. Being able to just equip any kind of non-aura mod in the 10 standard slots, yet only Aura mods in the aura slot, felt like they had the idea of slot-exclusive mods, but then stopped at just one slot type.

 

I especially love the idea of utilizing mastery rank to provide perks for weapons or warframes.

 

I think changing to such a system could be made gradually by first recategorizing all mods and giving every weapon and Warframe different "sections" for their mods. The new damage system gives huge emphasis on damage types rather than raw damage, so the basic +damage mods can easily be phased out when the mods are recategorized, but that change would also have to come side-by-side with the "frames and weapons get stronger as they level" concept, or the high-level missions would become impossible.

 

As for how DE will still make money from platinum sales, I point to a number of things already present: Warframe Slots, Weapon Slots, Color palettes, Skins, Accessories, Resources, Credit packs, Exp / Credit booster packs, Weapon packs, etc...

 

Revenue staying power can, for a little while, depend partially on releasing more skins and accessories, but otherwise it will come from new players who like the game and throw money at the developers as a show of thanks (as was the case with me). Veterans WILL tire of the base game eventually, and they'll accomplish everything they want to do. After that, they'll probably only stay to play with their friends, as is the case with most games centered around multiplayer.

 

Given that 'supercharging' warframes and weapons has been an integral part of the game for as long as I was part of it (I joined right after the current mod system was implemented, around April or something), I think potatoes could still remain in some way. Since this new system would likely involve warframes and weapons getting significantly improved stats as they level up, supercharging could sort of "unlock" the weapon or frame and enable more customizations, such as weapon sounds or an extra "utility" slot. These are simply more ways that a player could make their favorite weapon stand out more, or look closer to the way they want it.

 

The ideas here are amazing, but I think you could do with a detailed example providing a comparison of two builds, demonstrating how two builds can be vastly different yet each just as viable for competing at the same level.

[ninosan]

good thing noone says TL;DR ... cause i gonna slap that person right on.

 

This is very creative , i love it.

The work he put into this thought should be appreciated and noticed by the DE's .

Although in term of programming perspective, it is very hard to change the core system.

Even harder is to please those who has grinded their teeth to max the mods or to farm them (unless equal value of return can be given)

 

One thing that i would say to the idea above,

I hope all of the skill points as he mentioned can be rearranged for free. That will give users maximum flexibility needed at any situation.

 

Big PLUS to the removal of the mods.

Currently most of the mods are bottomline USELESS. and people wouldnt even bother to use them due to the limited space. So why create useless mods ? recreate another stronger mods to replace the useless mods ? and again and again ?? very bad ....

 

Big PLUS to the melee system.

Its a laugh that there is a blocking for melee that NOONE EVER USE. Even when the new mods are given, so called blocking is still useless.

The current system also only allows certain weapon to attack multiple enemies ... what about others ?? USELESS ..

End game, people only use GALATINE or ORTHOS or a lil variation of others .... about more than 10 other melee weapons .. ? USELESS

 

And for the Guns ..

similar to the melee ... enough said.

Too many bad design into new weapons rendering them practically inferior to the others.

making these numerous weapons, USELESS ...

 

Why DE created things to be useless ? i bet its not their intention either. 

I really suggest DE read this post.

[TheClingClang]

I think Warframe (or more accurately DE) is too reliant on the mod system to just get rid of it.

I hate to say it but Warframe needs to die and get reborn if it has any hope of reaching its full potential.

 

Also this is why you write up a design document before you start making and marketing your game.

[WhiteCopain]

A lot of these changes cannot likely make it in. I'd love them to, but removing mods and the like would result in them losing money. People wouldn't buy high platinum packs for the mods, people wouldn't buy mod packs or core packs or the like, trading -- a system they worked hard to get in-- would be removed for awhile most likely, and so on.

 

 

I would like to see parts of this atleast though. The stance combat system for intsance could be fantastic. And I would like for gear to get more powerful as you level so I'm not forced to take all the 'required' stuff and then be OP because I have ridiculous shields and HP while I one shot things with a machine gun.

[HateFueled]

nice effort dude. interesting suggestions

[theGreatZamboni]

People who say this is too much work or would cause unrest would have a point, if DE weren't calling this a Beta. I am of the mindset that this is most certainly not a Beta, but an Alpha with a cash shop. The way a Free2Play game should work, is not to nickle and dime the player to the point of getting in the way of their experience; but to give players the chance to show their support by purchasing content that is supplemental to the overall experience. DE are a games studio. This is not too much work. What it is, is admitting they were wrong. I am most certainly not infallible nor is my idea, but given the direction of the game and the proposed concepts on display; my systems work to better fit the style of game. People will still be able to buy guns, skins, Warframes, Void keys, Sentinels. I highly doubt a large amount of their revenue comes from Mod Packs. This doesn't even address the equally as troublesome idea of item slots. When you would rather exploit your players for money, over providing them an experience they enjoy, well then maybe you need to rethink your career path. I'm sure a number of game publishers are hiring.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Loswaith]

Take a look at the core of your system.  Your proposal IS the mod system, just with a different skin (and you dont have to find the mods), the difference is instead of a single pool where players can freely change between types your idea limits the points to systems, powers and utility having each their own totals, thusly more inherant limitations to how players can build and is not actually more freedom, as you cant spend more utility points for less systems or powers (or any other combination) if you so wish it.  The mod system is quite capable of doing everything you sugest and more with the correct implementation and choices for mods.

 

I will agree though, I dont think DE is utilising the mod system like they could, for a few reasons.  The bigest of these is the 'inherant' mods taking up space.  Things like warframe powers, shields, health and weapon damage increase are all things that are an inherant part of the warframe or weapon should be seperate from the 'choice' pool because they are simply required.  Having these either their own specific mod slots (powers in particular), or better yet inherant to the ranking up process of each one, as the way these can change as a warframe or weapon ranks up could actually make for some good diversity.  (for example a frame that starts with very low health could gain allot of health over level ups resulting in high health at the end, while a seperate frame can have high heath to start with and gain very little over the ranks ending with moderate health, which a third starts with moderate and has an even gain and ends up with moderate health).

Powers could also have more choice by simply letting some frames use existing powers of other frames. As an example Volt having the ability to use Vaubans Tesla, adds to his options, whiel still keeping Volt accurate to his theme.  Bounce, is a similar variant for Excalibur super jump and forms the same kind of factor.  Rhino Charge and Slash dash are essentially much the same with a little different flavour, so allowing them to use each others keeps the theme but gives more choice in how to build the two.  Loki's switch teleport and Ash's Teleport could be intererchangeable between the two as well.  There are may other powers that exist that would fit another frame's theme and if available gives more diversity as well.

 

A second reason and likely one of the current biggest ones is mods arent all equal, having 12% resistance to a specific element isnt equal to +220% health increase.  However that same elemental resistance being say 75-80% resistance and suddenly it's a consideration.

 

Taking out the inherant mods as their own mod slots (like the auras are, without the mod point gain) or building them into the items ranking, gives more room for changing up builds (also gives DE more control too).

 

For me the corrupted mods show a great way to use them, it means you have a trade off that can let you build like you want too.

 

As to mastery its an indication of versatility not power.  Someone at mastery 4 can have every mod and be just as powerful as a mastery 12 player, they just dont have the diversity.  People need to move away from thinking it is any indication of actual power.  Sure it would be nice to have benefits to mastery but making players more powerful because of it isnt a good move.

 

The melee system while a nice idea (and I'm all for combos), curently is the same as the gun play, infact melee has more options already than for guns.  Guns are currently point and click one button (the occasional charge weapon), or zoom and point and shoot.  An extra system will likely overshadow the gun system, and make the game more about melee rather than a third person shooter.  Melee is meant to be supporting the shooter, not the shooter supporting the melee.  Sure some of the non-charge viable melee weapons got broken in 2.0 but hopefully that gets fixed up.

[TheClingClang]

What it is, is admitting they were wrong.

 

After "We won't add pvp", "cosmetics don't sell", and "Warframe isn't about grinding" you'd think they'd be used to hearing that by now, or at least be more open to change.

 

Also if DE wants to try and salvage the mod system:

- Give every player a starter set of essential mods when they start

- Reduce the bonuses of redirection, serration, focus, etc by a fair amount; add innate increases to damage, power strength, health, etc as a frame/weapon levels up

- Divide frame and weapon mod space into groups; net increase in mod slots

- Remove the aura "battery" affect; allow frames to equip more than one aura

- Reduce cost to level up mods (needing 1024 copies of equilibrium is absurd)

- Rebalance mod pricing: Puncture is NOT worth 15 slots

 

Though abandoning the system all together is by far the better option.

 

 

the difference is instead of a single pool where players can freely change between types your idea limits the points to systems, powers and utility having each their own totals, thusly more inherant limitations to how players can build and is not actually more freedom, as you cant spend more utility points for less systems or powers (or any other combination) if you so wish it.

No offense bud, but:

1) One of the main point was that the mod system puts emphasis on farming mods over playing the actual game/crafting an enjoyable experience.

2) It's creativity through adversity: If you didn't limit the number of system or power mods everyone would stock up on continuity, focus, stretch, streamline, flow, etc and continue to completely ignore mods like shield flux, intruder, handspring, etc. The idea is to let the player retain most of their maximized and still have some toys to play with.

Edited November 26, 2013 by TheClingClang

[waaaaaaaals]

I am of the mindset that this it most certainly not a Beta but an Alpha with a cash shop.

Not exactly a mindset, it's an absolute fact.

[Lemonz]

Tying modification limits into Mastery Rank would be a bit of a faux pas. The way the current system works is well done in the sense a player can pick any particular frame or weapon from the start and use it at its full ability without investing too much time into the game. Other than that, this idea has a lot of potential.

 

They could easily implement Zamboni's idea into their current system by re-organising Mods into more specific genres and then splitting the current modular groups into seperate bodies with their own individual limits, governed by the rank of said item. This way, they could even keep Potatoes in-game and keep that trading card gamey feel to it.

 

The problem here is not really with the way the modding system works. It's the way the game is designed to shoe-horn the player into playing the game in one specific way. There is no reward for exploration. There is no reward for pacifism. There is no reward for creativity. Until DE fixes this inherent flaw in their gameplay, Warframe will be forever stagnant.

[theGreatZamboni]

Not exactly a mindset, it's an absolute fact.

 

Well not really, since my grammar makes it nonsensical. Gotta fix that.

[waaaaaaaals]

Well not really, since my grammar makes it nonsensical. Gotta fix that.

Not really, it's all the wonderful world of software development cycles.

Claiming Warframe is a real beta is like saying they have a fully grown guard dog, in reality they have a small puppy who isn't toilet trained yet.

[Blackjammer]

The melee system while a nice idea (and I'm all for combos), curently is the same as the gun play, infact melee has more options already than for guns.  Guns are currently point and click one button (the occasional charge weapon), or zoom and point and shoot.  An extra system will likely overshadow the gun system, and make the game more about melee rather than a third person shooter.  Melee is meant to be supporting the shooter, not the shooter supporting the melee.  Sure some of the non-charge viable melee weapons got broken in 2.0 but hopefully that gets fixed up.

 

So instead of melee being brought up from charge spamming you want the guns to always be the better option? Like how this game has been for several months?

Even with the new system in place how would it overshadow using guns?

[theGreatZamboni]

So instead of melee being brought up from charge spamming you want the guns to always be the better option? Like how this game has been for several months?

Even with the new system in place how would it overshadow using guns?

 

I will be expanding upon this per request. But it gives the player innate bonuses to melee and how it functions via the Fight Lab precepts. It also means if you are low on HP or Energy, completing a combo will help you maintain your vitals as well as dealing with the enemy. It is designed to compliment powers and guns. I have no idea what this guy is talking about. Hopefully my new images and expansions tomorrow clear this up.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Ardhanarishvara]

There is not enough "Yes" in the world to account for how great these ideas are.

[hovengotty]

Forget Damage 2.0

 

I want this Warframe 2.0

[Drifter11]

Great ideas, I agree with nearly all of what you have proposed. Hope that DE reads this. 

 

I had a question, though. If you were to do away with potatoes and formas, what happens to all those that spent money and worked for them? What happens to the weapons and frames themselves? 

[TheClingClang]

Great ideas, I agree with nearly all of what you have proposed. Hope that DE reads this. 

 

I had a question, though. If you were to do away with potatoes and formas, what happens to all those that spent money and worked for them? What happens to the weapons and frames themselves? 

 

They could still do basically the same thing: Potato would double your points to spent in the tree, and forma would polarize one of the slots in one of your trees and halving the cost to put S#&$ there.

[General_Krull]

Part of me wants to see all of this to happen. Bigger part of me knows it won't. 

[REDACTED]

Brilliant stuff as always Zamboni. Such a shame it will be ignored, again.

[TunaMayo]

Whilst you make a lot of sense, how do you propose to deal with the following :

Compensation for players with maxed out mods, who in the new system would lose everything they had worked for?

Compensation for players who have payed platinum (sometimes a lot) for mods?

The even greater rift this would cause between new players and old players, with mastery granting strength?

Unfortunately, alrhough I like your idea I just can't see it happening. U7 was bad enough, but now you have more players who have invested more time and money into basically the mod card system.

I would much rather see drastic improvements to the combat/reward/gameplay side of things anyhow.

[Qynchou]

Agree with a point system. Its incredibly obvious that thats pretty much the only and the best way to add customization to your warframe. Diminishing returns and not having it all is what its supposed to be about. Id love having stat points for my powers WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO RESET them or able to reset them with diminishing returns. If I get stat points, maybe I want to pump everything into rhino charge? Maybe rhino charge gets charges (no pun intended) where I can cast it a couple of times in rapid succession, maybe it gets enough stat points that I can control it to any direction I want? Maybe I pump everything into Iron Skin and it gets more defense then it gets more aggro then it reflects bullets then affects my rhino charge to be wider MAYBE IT SLOWS ME DOWN in the  long run but thats a SACRIFICE I make, speed for tankyness.

 

As mods for weapons go, they dont actually need to remove them. If DE wants to keep the mod system they could keep it for weapons only. Your attachment idea? You can have mod cards as attachments. A mod card that makes ogris' missiles homing? Maybe storing a couple of charges? Maybe changing the elemental type of the rocket? High explosion range rounds etc etc.

 

Completely agree with serration, hornet strike etc mods, those should be removed from the game(I have them maxed). The new boss is added, Alad V and Zanuka I dont even know their mechanics because they just die in mere seconds and I dont want to gimp myself to find out what they are. Sure, Im an endgame player but that doesnt mean that I should be bursting enemies down that quickly.

 

If they remove the damage mods Id be more than happy as long as theres some sort of compensation in customization and content added instead of it. This means that I'll be killing enemies with strategy, a lot slower but it will make it  much more fun. If you remove the damage mods stealth play would be much more viable.

 

When you think about it its not as bad as it looks, in terms of work need to be done to fix it, some small changes and removal of mods would make the gameplay much more interesting already.

 

Customization, scaling rewards, smaller loot tables, more interesting combat,  no press 4 to wipe the room abilities(unless you cant spam it, which in current state of the game, you can), reward for stealth play, customization and again customization.

 

 

Whilst you make a lot of sense, how do you propose to deal with the following :

Compensation for players with maxed out mods, who in the new system would lose everything they had worked for?

Compensation for players who have payed platinum (sometimes a lot) for mods?

The even greater rift this would cause between new players and old players, with mastery granting strength?

Unfortunately, alrhough I like your idea I just can't see it happening. U7 was bad enough, but now you have more players who have invested more time and money into basically the mod card system.

I would much rather see drastic improvements to the combat/reward/gameplay side of things anyhow.

 

So youre saying that even though I have 500 hours played I should be on the same level as the guy who joined warframe 2 hours ago? I shouldnt be stronger than him because I played more? There shouldnt be a gap between us? Please, dont be ridiculous.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Qynchou