A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[kubbi]

Beautifully written. You've made a lot of excellent points! Kudos! This is how warframe should've been to begin with.

 

But like someone mentioned its probably too late for it. To remove all the mods I mean. However the interface you showed could help to make better use of all the mods. Rather then just sitting there in the dust never to be used.

[theGreatZamboni]

Steve has stated they are hesitant to makes changes because people had spent money on the game. Well that is kind of a S#&$ty excuse because they did it to themselves. They charged people for things that are in a "beta". There could be some way to compensate people. I assume they have a record if transactions, if they don't well that would be shocking. Being in "beta" affords you to make changes. Having people get their mods taken away is a necessary sacrifice.

 

"The current Mod Card system is not a sustainable one. Meaning, you cannot continually release mods and use them as a crutch for content. The Corrupted Mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of ideas. But to think you can keep the system interesting with a flawed foundation is foolish."

 

The randomness, the grind, the poor design. I am willing to be people who truly have a strong attachment to the game would be willing to forgo such a drastic change if it mean the game was better for it. You would keep all your weapons of course, Warframes as well. To say this wouldn't work because of community backlash seems rather silly. There are numerous ways of going about this, too much work is a poor excuse.

Edited November 29, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Blatantfool]

Holy crap.

[theGreatZamboni]

Holy crap.

 

Good? Bad?

[tmtke]

Great article, however I have an other view point on this. If skill should have far more impact on advancement (as far as I know we agree on that), then the usage of warframes and weaponry, hacking and other stats should give you the XP's not in a more separated form, instead of the current mass XP for every stuff (I leveled up my sidearm many times without using it seriously). The mechanics is already present, in the form of achievements. Lets mine this data out.

 

So, my concept would be:

* Usage:
  Using a weapon: weapon specific XP

  Killing with a weapon: weapon spec. XP multiplied with a factor

  Using an ability: Ability XP

  ...etc.

* There can be a lot of variations of this, like successfull block, wallrun kill (movement skill XP), sniper accuracy percentage (weapon XP again), and so on.

* By leveling up these XP types (of course we need a limited amount of these), you can be able to add new mod slots (yes, I don't want to throw out the mod system, I actually like it). The new mod slot can be a default one, no affinity or formas involved.

* By default on a warframe/weapon/etc. should be one free slot for every XP related skill. These slots can be filled with a mod card, but leveling up is not by fusion, only XP can level it. Or, you can add more slots, but the gained XP values are now split between two (or more slots, levelling up slower). There can be a limit of 3 or 4 to adding new slots. New slots can be filled only with mods you already have, but each warframe and weapon should have the mod (a specific mod cannot be distributed between frames or weapons, only in builds).

* The current achievements can be transferred to the new system easily: a potato transfers to equally distributed XPs, a forma transfers to XP on one specific mod using the polarity to calculate the exact value.

* Builds can be easily done within this system, because the mod levels are showing your skill exactly in that particular module.

* Auras a bit inbalances the situation, they should stay a drop related stuff powered only with fusing, maybe formaing (in which case forma is a resource like a fusion core).

 

An example here, for showing the conversion

 

Original - Volt level 9, potatoed:

  Aura: Rifle Amp lvl5

  Mods: Shock lvl3, Speed lvl1, Electric Shield lvl 2, Overload lvl3, Redirection lvl8, Streamline lvl5 (in - polarity slot)

 

Converted - potato adds an XP boost for the conversion (in unleveled/new items after the changes potatoes are not available to power up stuff), so the starting set looks like this:

Abilities 1 slot, Build(Health/Armor/Shields) 1 slot, Tech(Power/Stamina) 1 slot. Then while we are at level 9 + potato, we can target 18 skill levels total.

  Abilities: Shock and Overload are maxed (3+3), Electric Shield is 1 and Speed is at default (adds 0), leveling up. (7 levels, 4 slots total)

  Build: Redirection (8 levels, 1 slot)

  Tech: Streamline (5 levels, with forma XP it is 2.5 round this up to 3, 1 slot)

  All in all: 7 + 8 + 3 is 18.

 

Aura is a different matter, I was merely using it to power up a new frame. It added 14 mod points, and I think this is an exploit, and not very well tought out while they are easily accessible if you do alert missions and fuse them up to max with cores.

 

Of course the above example is merely a quick writeup, not a fully detailed and broken down idea.

[theGreatZamboni]

[snip]

 

What you have just described is almost identical to what we have now. You have broken up and made a rather simple system extremely complex for no apparent reason. You say there are too many things to level xp-wise, then go on to list a system that increases the number of things to level. Your concern is with XP and not my system it seems. The point of contention is not about XP, but the Mod Card system. While I address the way XP and Mastery Rank should be a means to track progression; your pitch keeps the mods in place, while my thread specifically states the game cannot survive with mods functioning as they do now. In fact upon re-reading what you said, it seems you have no understanding of how XP is distributed in the game.

Edited December 19, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Gripheon]

Signed in just to upvote, this is the single greatest thread to me ive seen in a while.

 

to me this is exactly what im having issues with on warframe.

 

I cannot describe how dissapointed i feel whem my dread or any other weapons is just serration, split chaimber, crit, and +elements and no utility (currently shedding a tear for thunderbolt) with no focus to anything in particular or unique. Aswell as adding to the fact is to do anything useful i at high level im forced (or was forced) to use soma, galantine, and acrid or despair.

 

Or warframes that are just a health and shield build on a low armor warframe and nothing else otherwise id be burning revives or using gimmick warframe abilities on high level content and still with no focus to anything in particular or unique on warframes that i like.

 

Grinding the hell out of mods is not anything grand or wonderful and having them cut down to size would be a BIG benifit.

 

also the fact that you want to change the melee system regardless of what it turns out to be would be great cause right now it sucks.. nothing but charge attacks.

 

i hope these changes could be implemented in the coming future of warframe, otherwise i may stop playing out of lack of diversity it currently has and just get flat out bored of it :/

 

i may just be scraping the surface of your post as i only skimmed over it because of lack of time and i may look over it once more but still so far, way to drop the mic. you just summed up my issues with warframe.

 

+1

[ThePresident777]

I read the premise of your argument but stopped at the point where you make specific suggestions. I take issue with your premise. You say that farming mods is the only thing to do in Warframe. Therefore, mods have to go away. If I accept that then I expect that you will want to get rid of credits and xp also because those are farmed too. I wouldn't mind that at all because I don't really like farming. But, I doubt DE will do that.

What I would ask DE to do is create more game modes so that we can have fun while farming. I would also ask them to respect and improve the foundation of the game: guns, melee, powers, fast fluid movement, parkour, bog explosions, EXCESS. The mod card system is not the foundation of the game. It is just a very simple, elegant, effective, unique implementation and I hope DE does not throw it away to make Warframe like every other game.

Edited November 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Liminal]

Oh.

Dude.

That's great, and I didn't even finish reading it. I'll go over it again when I get home, but for now I'll say this: hell yes!

[Blatantfool]

I read the premise of your argument but stopped at the point where you make specific suggestions. I take issue with your premise. You say that farming mods is the only thing to do in Warframe. Therefore, mods have to go away. If I accept that then I expect that you will want to get rid of credits and xp also because those are farmed too. I wouldn't mind that at all because I don't really like farming. But, I doubt DE will do that.

What I would ask DE to do is create more game modes so that we can have fun while farming. I would also ask them to respect and improve the foundation of the game: guns, melee, powers, fast fluid movement, parkour, bog explosions, EXCESS. The mod card system is not the foundation of the game. It is just a very simple, elegant, effective, unique implementation and I hope DE does not throw it away to make Warframe like every other game.

 

 You shouldn't be commenting on all that unless you read it. Some of it IS pretty great. 

 

 I'd probably change melee different then he wants to though.

[theGreatZamboni]

I read the premise of your argument but stopped at the point where you make specific suggestions. I take issue with your premise. You say that farming mods is the only thing to do in Warframe. Therefore, mods have to go away. If I accept that then I expect that you will want to get rid of credits and xp also because those are farmed too. I wouldn't mind that at all because I don't really like farming. But, I doubt DE will do that.

What I would ask DE to do is create more game modes so that we can have fun while farming. I would also ask them to respect and improve the foundation of the game: guns, melee, powers, fast fluid movement, parkour, bog explosions, EXCESS. The mod card system is not the foundation of the game. It is just a very simple, elegant, effective, unique implementation and I hope DE does not throw it away to make Warframe like every other game.

 

Reading comprehension:

 

The current Mod Card system is not a sustainable one. Meaning, you cannot continually release mods and use them as a crutch for content. The Corrupted Mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of ideas. But to think you can keep the system interesting with a flawed foundation is foolish.

People play to obtain drops. Mods are drops. Now this is a point of contention, but I am willing to bet some people are tired of the game and find themselves only playing to obtain said drops. The problem being the gameplay in and of itself is not satisfying. The drops/rewards are acting as the driving force for player retention, instead of creating experiences that are rewarding and letting the drops compliment those experiences.

 

Saying you stopped reading barely 1/10 of the way through just to comment seems counterproductive.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[bobafetthotmail]

This is EPIC. Also because of mockup pics.

 

Only issue is that the post is a bit huge. I know that it would lose a lot of fun factor, but I think that making a tl:dr would greatly help in letting the ideas reach the devs.

[theGreatZamboni]

This is EPIC. Also because of mockup pics.

 

Only issue is that the post is a bit huge. I know that it would lose a lot of fun factor, but I think that making a tl:dr would greatly help in letting the ideas reach the devs.

 

If they can't take 2 minutes to read everything here, it shows how little they care. They can read it if they want. I am not correct in my suggestions, there are other ways of fixing it. But I am correct in my analyses of the current system. The way the current Mod Card system exists cannot be sustained. If they tweaked it, maybe. But when your concept is inherently flawed, leaning on it to support an entire game is foolish.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Taihus]

There is so much here to comment on, and I really don't have the time to discuss everything presented here. However, I think that if there's anything that DE absolutely needs to take from this, it's the idea that those straight-up damage booster mods need to go. They don't offer any interesting choices, and they're based around the whole idea that enemies become increasingly bullet-spongey at higher levels. As has been stated previously, making higher levels = more health and damage for enemies doesn't make for interesting gameplay, it just means that players need to spend time or money on trying to boost those elusive damage boosting mods. One of the keys to retaining players and creating a fun experience is to present more and more variety and more choices as a player plays, and in this case levels up. This is already present in the mod card system, but the blunt need for those damage boosters means that an element of choice is taken away by the very fact that a player needs to have mod points dedicated to boosting damage just to have a chance of survival at higher levels. If serration-type mods were removed, and the individual damage type mods buffed, enemy health scaling could get a nerf, and players will need to decide how they want to customize their weapon to be effective. All-round damage types and procs, or a focus on one damage type to maximize effectiveness against certain enemies?

Also, though I haven't played Remember Me, I'd say that the Fight Lab melee combo system would probably be one of the better ways of mixing up Warframe's melee combat. Thumbs up for that as well.

[kLai]

Read through all of this. +100000000000000

Please we need something in depth like this to save Warframe's rather shallow gameplay.

[Blatantfool]

 The melee thing is the only thing I'm hung up on. I'm still working through all of it after skimming it. Just sharing some initial thoughts.

 

 It sounds incredible (Is it partially inspired by Remember Me?) but I think Melee, while needing a big change, has to stay quick and easy to remember across all weapons.

 

 I'd go for big alterations to it, but not go quite as far as you. 

 

 I've always kinda figured adopting a version of Vindictus' simple melee combo system would be appropriate. Along the lines of:

 

-Tapping E is quick melee attacks. Not very damaging. Good at staggering, some weapons will even push foes backwards.

-Holding E will now equip melee weapons. Welcome to 'Melee mode'. Press F any time to return to your last equipped gun.

 

 

-Left click is now light attack. All Melee weapons (Divided by type: Longsword, Spear, ect) get a string of 4 of these for a combo. They aren't incredibly damaging, but pretty good at staggering. They also wont hinder your motion much.

-Right click is now heavy attack. Interrupting your light attack chain with a heavy attack will do a 'Smash'. All melee weapons have 5 smashes total, each acting a bit different. Right clicking all on its lonesome is a different attack then right clicking at the end of the 4 light attack combo. It all flows together, but it pathetically easy to remember and use.

[tmtke]

theGreatZamboni: sorry for the different idea, I don't want my quick mockup to pollute your full rewrite of warframe (really, this is not mocking). I just only have two points then, which are not addressed by your system:
* it doesn't solve skill based gameplay

* it doesn't solve the fact that what will be players doing for hundreds of hours if not farming mods or stuff. Really, did anyone tought about what will happen? The enemies are a bit dumb (don't expect a radical improvement in this regard, while AI is still babylike in all games). Scale them up? How? Stalker became really badass, and everybody complaining about it?

Edited November 26, 2013 by tmtke

[bobafetthotmail]

If they can't take 2 minutes to read everything here, it shows how little they care.

Not maximizing your chances is not a good idea.

[Taihus]

theGreatZamboni: sorry for the different idea, I don't want my quick mockup to pollute your full rewrite of warframe (really, this is not mocking). I just only have two points then, which are not addressed by your system:

* it doesn't solve skill based gameplay     * it doesn't solve the fact that what will be players doing for hundreds of hours if not farming mods or stuff. Really, did anyone tought about what will happen? The enemies are a bit dumb (don't expect a radical improvement in this regard, while AI is still babylike in all games). Scale them up? How? Stalker became really badass, and everybody complaining about it?

Stalker became a badass by basically becoming the most broken thing in this game. He isn't interesting to fight, just frustrating.

The melee thing is the only thing I'm hung up on. I'm still working through all of it after skimming it. Just sharing some initial thoughts.

 

 It sounds incredible (Is it partially inspired by Remember Me?) but I think Melee, while needing a big change, has to stay quick and easy to remember across all weapons.

 

 I'd go for big alterations to it, but not go quite as far as you. 

 

 I've always kinda figured adopting a version of Vindictus' simple melee combo system would be appropriate. Along the lines of:

 

-Tapping E is quick melee attacks. Not very damaging. Good at staggering, some weapons will even push foes backwards.

-Holding E will not equip melee weapons. Welcome to 'Melee mode'. Press F any time to return to your last equipped gun.

 

 

-Left click is now light attack. All Melee weapons (Divided by type: Longsword, Spear, ect) get a string of 4 of these for a combo. They aren't incredibly damaging, but pretty good at staggering. They also wont hinder your motion much.

-Right click is now heavy attack. Interrupting your light attack chain with a heavy attack will do a 'Smash'. All melee weapons have 5 smashes total, each acting a bit different. Right clicking all on its lonesome is a different attack then right clicking at the end of the 4 light attack combo. It all flows together, but it pathetically easy to remember and use.

This is also a good alternative. the melee in Space Marine was pretty similar, and overall it worked pretty well IMO, despite the overall repetitiveness of the gameplay.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Taihus

[SilverBones]

I got to tell you, I read this whole thread thoroughly and it does make excellent sense.

 

I like the idea of making Melee more plausable and although I forsee issues in removing the mod card system (as many have been bought with real currency and I am not sure how they would convert into your proposed system) , the theory is sound as a pound.

 

Good job, sir.

[theGreatZamboni]

theGreatZamboni: sorry for the different idea, I don't want my quick mockup to pollute your full rewrite of warframe (really, this is not mocking). I just only have two points then, which are not addressed by your system:

* it doesn't solve skill based gameplay

* it doesn't solve the fact that what will be players doing for hundreds of hours if not farming mods or stuff. Really, did anyone tought about what will happen? The enemies are a bit dumb (don't expect a radical improvement in this regard, while AI is still babylike in all games). Scale them up? How? Stalker became really badass, and everybody complaining about it?

 

It is fine. I am updating it today, but as for your concern, it is addressed in passing.

 

What I am proposing is a complete scrapping of the Mod Card system. In it's place, specific systems for the 3 most important aspects of the game: Warframes, Gunplay and Melee. If you create a solid foundation in these 3 systems, you can design enemies and content around them, everything else will fall into place.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[xLordBelialx]

Hope this gets attention it deserves, it resembles most of the ideas my clan and I have been discussing.

Fixing the core game mechanics as well as fixing player progression so future content can be built on player skill levels in combat rather than best dps/bullet sponge is far more important than the recent additions to the game.

Personally though the need for some kind of real difficulty based on skill in the game is what is most needed right now. I'd like something that explicitly addresses this in your post. (I know you kind of did in passing with the mastery rank area/future content designs but really what we and DE need are some specific plans)

 

As it stands with the mod system no matter a players skill level if they do not have a certain level of DPS, there is a point where the sheer number of enemies combined with their bullet-sponge health will prevent the player from winning. This should not be the case. 

An example could really be taken from games like Dark Souls, Monster hunter and others. Grinding does lead to progression, however player skill will trump it. A low-geared player should be able to complete missions even if it takes them far longer or more effort/dodging etc, and new gear/grinding should just aid in their abilities to do so, not be required.

 

I've posted threads asking for at least the ability to toggle nightmare on every mission by choice as a short term solution but it hasn't gotten picked up.

Edited November 26, 2013 by xLordBelialx

[BetaZerker]

I agree 100%, choice should be king, not neccesity.

 

DE, HIRE HIM!

[Mc_Ludger]

your ideas are great , I hope DE will look at this

[LukeAura]

Definitely the object of the game is to be one part sense of reward, 

 

theGreatZamboni: sorry for the different idea, I don't want my quick mockup to pollute your full rewrite of warframe (really, this is not mocking). I just only have two points then, which are not addressed by your system:
* it doesn't solve skill based gameplay

* it doesn't solve the fact that what will be players doing for hundreds of hours if not farming mods or stuff. Really, did anyone tought about what will happen? The enemies are a bit dumb (don't expect a radical improvement in this regard, while AI is still babylike in all games). Scale them up? How? Stalker became really badass, and everybody complaining about it?

Zamboni has a good idea to solve those. Make the gameplay engaging, make it so that people will be replaying missions to test and show off their individualized warframe builds and melee combos. The progression/reward system of endlessly hunting mods is replaced by the feeling that you, yourself as a Tenno, have achieved a new level of power and skill through trials and training, and not just because you found that latest new power mod.  The reward has to be getting to play. That's the best kind of game after all, when playing it is its own reward. 
Levels and abilities will probably need a redesign as well to best benefit this. See things more like Slash Dash/Hysteria/Venom, abilities we have to time, work with and actively participate in using. And no hard CC. no Bastilles no stomps, no Miasmas even. Warframe is all about movement, nothing should ever completely stop moving. More slows, snares, blinds, confusions, crowd control effects that don't halt movement entirely, only limit it in some fashion.  Levels will need more interactive components. Vents leading to sniping spots, breakable/moveable terrain as well as being shorter but packed with more content and action. 
Warframe has probably one of the greatest looks and designs in an mmo ever. What it needs is the engaging/interactive gameplay to match.