Damage 2.0 And Melee - Not Enough Variation In Numbers

[Casardis]

EDIT: Fluffette also gave extensive suggestions and ideas: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/141655-damage-20-and-melee-not-enough-variation-in-numbers/#entry1683562

 

With damage 2.0, it's supposed to make it not only more varied when it comes to builds, but also from weapons stats. However, melee weapons in general seem to lack even more variety than they used to due to innate abilities become Procs.

 

1- Most weapons seem to align only on one damage type instead of having varied/evened numbers

--- There's too many slashing weapons, WAY too many

---They could at least make a few of them so, but instead, it's all pretty much favoring a single damage type

--- This is especially strange and bad for Rending Strike, which gives charge damage and Puncture damage; most weapons that benefit from charge builds are slashing or impact, so...

 

-- As a result of that, variation between weapons becomes even lesser. For example, look at the stats comparison:

 

They could have made Dual Ether balance it out between Puncture and Slashing with low impact (a bit more on the slashing since they're swords) to simulate its Serrated Blade damage from 1.0 (and would also be fitting since it's made from "ethereal" materials).

 

Instead, we have Dual Ether and Dual Kama sharing the exact same animations, but with the latter being arguably superior. Sure, Dual Ether has slightly more impact damage, but it's so minimal that you won't really notice such differences that much.

 

An even better example would be Reaper Prime and Hate which both pretty much shared the same stats with the latter having slightly more range I think (at least it appears so). Melee and Damage 2.0 were the perfect opportunity to set these two scythes a part like they did with the three bows now. Instead, we still pretty much have "skins."

 

 

 

 

2- Procs are way too low on all melee weapons

--- This is bad because certain useful innate abilities have been removed, such as stun (Impact proc became stun) Subverted since melee 2.0

--- Melee's core system is already lackluster; reducing such abilities into completely unreliable procs makes the dynamics even worse

--- There's even less high risk-high reward because of that; melee has the potential to be this if DE plays with high proc chances further (kinda logical to make it the category with highest proc chance).

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

Damage 2.0 introduced nice things to play around. The problem here is that, at least on the Melee side, there doesn't seem to be much originality in how damage numbers are played with. I know that a sword should do slashing by logic, but from a gameplay standpoint, they shouldn't all be restricted in such a way, since they already went this road with bullets.

 

Procs need to be checked thoroughly on all melee weapons and to receive a super buff, in my opinion, so that not only will melee be more effective in much more situations, but it will be much more fun to Proc, debuff, CC by going up close and personal. This will also make Melee Prowess worthwhile.

 

Hopefully some of these changes will be made by looking at the potential damage 2.0 brought in terms of base stats and Procs as gameplay, with less "RNG" in melee weapons. They started better with ranged weapons (there's now better reasons to choose between Vasto and Lex due to damage type), but melee shouldn't be brushed aside.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Casardis

[Seanjuju]

I agree

[OnyxAlchemyst]

What I find most frustrating about the current state of melee is that since so many of the melee weapons do slash, they're stuck more with the infested, but I try to engage them with even my high-level weapons and I get myself torn to shreds because all I'm doing is presenting myself straight into their claws, since I can't interrupt them anymore.

*edit*

without stun and proc, melee really isn't viable because all you're doing is likely lowering your damage output, while opening yourself up to your enemy's punishing counters. If you find yourself bumping up with pretty much anyone, it's actually a better idea to back off and shoot them than to try hitting them with your sword.

Edited December 1, 2013 by OnyxAlchemyst

[CosmoKnight]

OFF Topic: What colors are you using for Valkyr? She looks awesome!

ON Topic: I also get upset at the fact that most of the melee weapons' highest damage type is Slash because it does best against Infested. And going against them with just your fisticuffs certainly isn't the smartest idea. Like Alchemyst said: You get torn to shreds.

Then again, this can open up a new opporunity for new melee weapons that have their own unique animation. These weapons could deal mostly puncture damage (obviously) and the animation would be sort of like fencing...In a way. That's just a raw idea that came to my head as I typed this.

EDIT: I know the "ON Topic" portion is a slightly shorter version of what Alchemyst said, but it needs as much attention as it can get.

Edited December 1, 2013 by CosmoKnight

[Fluffbane]

First I agree (for the fourth or fifth time, I've lost count) that the non-staggering with melee is bad from most every angle I can see. From a gameplay perspective it makes it completely non-viable unless you like catching lasers with your face. From a subjective "feel" based angle, I think it's far worse. To explain I'm going to be blunt and heretical: 

 

it makes melee feel like World of Warcraft. Think about it. Before the update you could walk up and hit things in the face and they would, well, be hit in the face. Now you walk up to an enemy. You push buttons. Animations happen. You both take damage. Eventually, one of you falls down. I consider this a bad thing.

 

As for other points above: yes, there's way, way, way too much weapon overlap. Just looking at large dual weapons alone, there are 7 of them, and 6 do slashing damage. The exception is Dual Ichor with their toxic damage, but it's two out of three ain't bad, not one out of seven. Single swords have roughly the same ratio: there are 15 currently in game, and three that don't slash, the Prova with electricity, the Jaw Sword with puncture and the Plasma Sword with impact (for some reason). Technically the Cronus does slightly more impact damage (in spite of being extremely slight and frail-looking), but that doesn't much change its slashy nature.

 

 

Suggestion bit, based on staring at them for a while and also considering someone who's never seen them:

 

-Scott's said single swords need a "look at" for a while now. The biggest problem with them, really, is that most of them only hit one thing, which really doesn't make sense. I don't think it would be game-breaking for them to hit more, since they already have a much smaller hit area opposed to larger or dual weapons.

 

-The Dual Cleaver and two machetes are giant hunks of metal. It seems like they should have a bit more impact per swing than something like the Pangolin Sword.

 

-While I somewhat understand the logic of the kamas slashing, for both differentiation and physics shouldn't the pointy bits at right angles mostly puncture things? Same thing for the Hate and Reaper Prime versus the Ether Scythe. Two are pointy, one is basically an axe.

 

-The above two help deal with another issue, which is that if you want a non-slashing sword-type thing you have to wait for the alerts, which I both understand but also feel is a bit limiting to some players.

 

-While I get that the Obex and Kogake share a similar relationship as the Ankyros and Furax, the Kogake are still claws, which just seem like they should slash (yes I recognize that's more slashing damage, but it's slashing damage in a general class of weapons where all four are impact).

 

-A plain appearance/damage mismatch: the heavy, pointed, triangular Dark Dagger does slashing damage, but the thin, curved, scimitar-like Ceramic Dagger does puncture damage.

 

-More appearance/function mismatch: the Plasma Sword, which appears to be two fluorescent tubes glued to a bit of wood, does impact damage. This makes even less sense as the larger (and formerly visually identical) Gram does slash. In my mind the damage arrangement on those Alert weapons would look more like:

Dark Sword = puncture because it's big and triangular and then matches my above suggestion with the dagger

Jaw Sword = impact because it does look quite dull

Plasma Sword = mostly slashing unless you want to argue the fluorescent tubes have magic force field powers, in which case the Gram should too.

 

-Quick non-melee to address something else: it might be good to switch the damage types of the Sobek or Boar with the Tigris or make the Tigris a combination impact/puncture or balanced weapon, since shooting infested with its rate of fire is...less than optimal.

 

 

On the special jump attack group:

 

The "elemental on jump attack" has always seemed silly to me. Now that weapons can have multiple damage types, can't they be nuanced a bit?

 

-The Heat series of weapons (Dagger, Sword, and Dual Swords) really really ought to do a bit of heat damage on normal swings. The fact that they don't has been baffling me ever since the Dual Heat Swords became the first thing I ever built in the foundry. Also if you wanted more variety (and you do, apparently), the Dual Swords could have a bit more puncture since one of them is clearly the already-puncturing Heat Dagger.

 

-Mire used to do toxic/poison damage on normal swings, now it's just another slashy thing with a weak special jump attack. 

 

-Amphis, while being different from the Bo in speed and stats, possibly should do electrical damage on normal swings and knockdown with the jump like most things, since what made it useful before was that it could stun a group of corpus crewmen, which can't happen now with the proc system.

 

 

So, summary type thing: melee stagger is good (both to and from enemies), variety is good, matching damage types to appearance is good, the massive variety of damage types means weapons can and should do a massive variety of them, and elemental-only jump attacks are silly and always have been. Pontificating over.

[Casardis]

^Agreed <3

[OblivionNecroninja]

I am in full agreement.

[Ceres666]

+1

 

Melee in general has needed a rework for a very long time, this just adds to the problem :(

[nekrojiji]

Maybe something like controling the direction of the attacks by pointing the crosshair.

 

Maybe something similar to the "space forward", to jump over obastacles, to do more complex actions near the target.

[SirProper]

First I agree (for the fourth or fifth time, I've lost count) that the non-staggering with melee is bad from most every angle I can see. From a gameplay perspective it makes it completely non-viable unless you like catching lasers with your face. From a subjective "feel" based angle, I think it's far worse. To explain I'm going to be blunt and heretical: 

 

it makes melee feel like World of Warcraft. Think about it. Before the update you could walk up and hit things in the face and they would, well, be hit in the face. Now you walk up to an enemy. You push buttons. Animations happen. You both take damage. Eventually, one of you falls down. I consider this a bad thing.

 

As for other points above: yes, there's way, way, way too much weapon overlap. Just looking at large dual weapons alone, there are 7 of them, and 6 do slashing damage. The exception is Dual Ichor with their toxic damage, but it's two out of three ain't bad, not one out of seven. Single swords have roughly the same ratio: there are 15 currently in game, and three that don't slash, the Prova with electricity, the Jaw Sword with puncture and the Plasma Sword with impact (for some reason). Technically the Cronus does slightly more impact damage (in spite of being extremely slight and frail-looking), but that doesn't much change its slashy nature.

 

 

Suggestion bit, based on staring at them for a while and also considering someone who's never seen them:

 

-Scott's said single swords need a "look at" for a while now. The biggest problem with them, really, is that most of them only hit one thing, which really doesn't make sense. I don't think it would be game-breaking for them to hit more, since they already have a much smaller hit area opposed to larger or dual weapons.

 

-The Dual Cleaver and two machetes are giant hunks of metal. It seems like they should have a bit more impact per swing than something like the Pangolin Sword.

 

-While I somewhat understand the logic of the kamas slashing, for both differentiation and physics shouldn't the pointy bits at right angles mostly puncture things? Same thing for the Hate and Reaper Prime versus the Ether Scythe. Two are pointy, one is basically an axe.

 

-The above two help deal with another issue, which is that if you want a non-slashing sword-type thing you have to wait for the alerts, which I both understand but also feel is a bit limiting to some players.

 

-While I get that the Obex and Kogake share a similar relationship as the Ankyros and Furax, the Kogake are still claws, which just seem like they should slash (yes I recognize that's more slashing damage, but it's slashing damage in a general class of weapons where all four are impact).

 

-A plain appearance/damage mismatch: the heavy, pointed, triangular Dark Dagger does slashing damage, but the thin, curved, scimitar-like Ceramic Dagger does puncture damage.

 

-More appearance/function mismatch: the Plasma Sword, which appears to be two fluorescent tubes glued to a bit of wood, does impact damage. This makes even less sense as the larger (and formerly visually identical) Gram does slash. In my mind the damage arrangement on those Alert weapons would look more like:

Dark Sword = puncture because it's big and triangular and then matches my above suggestion with the dagger

Jaw Sword = impact because it does look quite dull

Plasma Sword = mostly slashing unless you want to argue the fluorescent tubes have magic force field powers, in which case the Gram should too.

 

-Quick non-melee to address something else: it might be good to switch the damage types of the Sobek or Boar with the Tigris or make the Tigris a combination impact/puncture or balanced weapon, since shooting infested with its rate of fire is...less than optimal.

 

 

On the special jump attack group:

 

The "elemental on jump attack" has always seemed silly to me. Now that weapons can have multiple damage types, can't they be nuanced a bit?

 

-The Heat series of weapons (Dagger, Sword, and Dual Swords) really really ought to do a bit of heat damage on normal swings. The fact that they don't has been baffling me ever since the Dual Heat Swords became the first thing I ever built in the foundry. Also if you wanted more variety (and you do, apparently), the Dual Swords could have a bit more puncture since one of them is clearly the already-puncturing Heat Dagger.

 

-Mire used to do toxic/poison damage on normal swings, now it's just another slashy thing with a weak special jump attack. 

 

-Amphis, while being different from the Bo in speed and stats, possibly should do electrical damage on normal swings and knockdown with the jump like most things, since what made it useful before was that it could stun a group of corpus crewmen, which can't happen now with the proc system.

 

 

So, summary type thing: melee stagger is good (both to and from enemies), variety is good, matching damage types to appearance is good, the massive variety of damage types means weapons can and should do a massive variety of them, and elemental-only jump attacks are silly and always have been. Pontificating over.

I agree with everything...except the melee jump attack specials. I like that the Amphis which looks like a electrically charged bo staff can blast electricity, If you take it from the jump attack I think it should then have a special charge attack ala jat kittag, not spinny rocket hammer, but just a special charge attack. same goes for all the other elemental weapons. Charge on the lecta should cause a chain lightning effect. Mire should spew a gas cloud. Heat anything should cause a fiery cone blast or something or oooohhh a fiery flamethrower spray along the arc of the swing. I am imagining ignis like stream that shoots out along the arc, basically the same thing that would happen if you were tracking a target with the ignis. Amphis could cause a blast of electricity off the first enemy it hits, basically discharging it into the first enemy causing local arcing and such. I think that system could provide some real depth.

[Casardis]

Bumping this topic back up now that melee 2.0 has emerged.

 

The issue with DAMAGE VARIETY still stands strongly, which I hoped they didn't. Just look below for some quick example I've given.

 

 

I will update my first post in a few days after more testing (and actual time playing).

 

Hate & Reaper Prime

- Everything's the same except attack speed

 

 

 

Galatine & Gram

- Same attack speed, same damage for everything except base, crit and status, where technically Galatine is superior in everyway.

- Suggestion: Make Galatine stay "full Slash" like it is currently with relatively nice crit. For Gram, don't hesitate to use its design to go a bit crazy with stats placement, by splitting puncture and slash in almost equal damage, instead of majority in slash, AGAIN (it's almost the case with all weapons...).

- It's a plasma sword, right? I think that very idea should be taken account of to be a bit more loose in damage distribution.

- Be more varied for other attack types (slide attack, etc)

 

Edited May 3, 2014 by Casardis

[Dangerousnub]

The ether reaper and reaper prime no long have the same stats if you check the wiki

The ether reaper now does 55.1 total doing

8.3 imp 8.3 pun and 38.5 and the reaper prime now does 60 doing 9 imp 9 pun and 42 slash.

[HappyFreek]

Agreed on the more "crazy" stat placement. And I still think Reaper Prime and Hate should be buffed a little bit. The difference between them and Ether REaper (which is MUCH easier to obtain) is way too low. Both need more stats. IMHO Hate should stay slow but hit harder than the others maybe with more status chance, and RP should be the more agile one with higher crit chance (and maybe crit damage). I also dont like the fact that axes and swords are using the same stances. Come on, DE that's not okay...
Oh, and the old melee weapons need some attention too. (Pangolin Sword, Jaw Sword, etc.)

Edited May 3, 2014 by Rapco1

[Sirabot]

Bumped and necro'ed for Great Justice

[Casardis]

The ether reaper and reaper prime no long have the same stats if you check the wiki

The ether reaper now does 55.1 total doing

8.3 imp 8.3 pun and 38.5 and the reaper prime now does 60 doing 9 imp 9 pun and 42 slash.

 

True. I erased the part about Ether Reaper in my latest post. Thanks.

 

 

Agreed on the more "crazy" stat placement. And I still think Reaper Prime and Hate should be buffed a little bit. The difference between them and Ether REaper (which is MUCH easier to obtain) is way too low. Both need more stats. IMHO Hate should stay slow but hit harder than the others maybe with more status chance, and RP should be the more agile one with higher crit chance (and maybe crit damage). I also dont like the fact that axes and swords are using the same stances. Come on, DE that's not okay...

Oh, and the old melee weapons need some attention too. (Pangolin Sword, Jaw Sword, etc.)

 

Agreed, but I think they could go with something even more creative, while adding what you suggested: make Hate's combo meter build up way faster with a higher multiplier ceiling (it could fit in lore-wise too, since it's Stalker's weapon, filled with negative emotions and most likely a big body count). That way, both can be powerful in its own way. DE will need to tweak the time needed to keep a combo up though, since it's way too short when most encounters are:

 

- Ranged enemies

- Scattered enemies who uses ranged weapons

- Scattered enemies who uses ranged weapons and run away from you whenever you get close

Edited May 3, 2014 by Casardis

[Azamagon]

Totally agreed with a lot of the stuff in this thread, and also wanna point to my quite recent thread in which I go to great detail in how the different melee weapons could have their damagetypes redistributed: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/223136-melee-damagetype-redistributions-some-minor-attackideas/

[Casardis]

Totally agreed with a lot of the stuff in this thread, and also wanna point to my quite recent thread in which I go to great detail in how the different melee weapons could have their damagetypes redistributed: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/223136-melee-damagetype-redistributions-some-minor-attackideas/

 

I've went through a bit of your ideas and so far I like it. I will give more extensive thoughts when I'm not too tired from lack of sleep XD

[Johnnybrain]

Melee at this stage isn't so bad as when you slash it provides a bit of time, as the victim will need to recover and brace before attacking. Also, it doesn't require ammo to use it, and is fun to do combos

[VDeorsum]

Agree, melee te awersome but useless

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Bump