Upcoming Saryn Changes

[Phantasmo]

Sorry, how does Miasma actually works? Is it affected by power duration?

The wiki says the shorter the better, is it correct?

[PsycloneM]

Currently, Miasma's DPS is calculated using 1500 base damage divided by Miasma's power duration. To determine the total damage, you multiply the DPS by ( 1 + Miasma's power duration ). The shorter Miasma's duration, the more damage it will inflict (both DPS and total). 

 

No duration mods:

1500 / 4 = 375 damage per second.

375 x 5 = 1875 total damage

 

Continuity and Constitution (+58% power duration):

1500 / 6.32 = 237 damage per second.

237 x 7.32 = 1735 total damage

 

Fleeting Expertise (-60% power duration):

1500 / 1.6 = 937 damage per second

937 x 2.6 = 2436 total damage

 

I'm still unsure whether this was intentional. Either way, I'm not a fan of this mechanic. I can understand having to sacrifice powers in order to make a corrupted mod work well with my build. Power duration mods like Continuity or Constitution have no inherent penalties, so I find it a bit frustrating that I have to choose between a low-duration Venom/Molt/Contagion + high-damage Miasma and a long-duration Venom/Molt/Contagion + low-damage Miasma.

[Phantasmo]

Thank you very much, a very nice explanation.

Besides what you said, a shorter ability can be spammed leading to even more DPS.

[PsycloneM]

Hey, no problem.

 

Prior to U11.5, increased power duration positively affected all of Saryn's abilities. They simply extended the amount of time each power was active, allowing more damage to be inflicted, and granting Molt a longer lifetime. The previously described mechanics only apply to the current Miasma. So it's not the case that a low-duration Venom will have stronger damage ticks, or a low-duration Contagion will inflict higher toxin damage. If you want Miasma to deal high damage, you have to sacrifice the duration of the rest of Saryn's powers. If you want Venom/Molt/Contagion to have a high duration, you have to sacrifice Miasma's total damage and DPS.

[zzang]

Hey, no problem.

 

Prior to U11.5, increased power duration positively affected all of Saryn's abilities. They simply extended the amount of time each power was active, allowing more damage to be inflicted, and granting Molt a longer lifetime. The previously described mechanics only apply to the current Miasma. So it's not the case that a low-duration Venom will have stronger damage ticks, or a low-duration Contagion will inflict higher toxin damage. If you want Miasma to deal high damage, you have to sacrifice the duration of the rest of Saryn's powers. If you want Venom/Molt/Contagion to have a high duration, you have to sacrifice Miasma's total damage and DPS.

the result of this is saryns skills are the opposite of what is considered to be a synergy (=counteractive) is this the right word to describe saryns skills?

Edited January 14, 2014 by zzang

[mynameisd]

That or let it affect all Saryn's weapons not just melee

this+attackspreed

[NDroid]

PsycloneM, on 14 Jan 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Hey, no problem.

Prior to U11.5, increased power duration positively affected all of Saryn's abilities. They simply extended the amount of time each power was active, allowing more damage to be inflicted, and granting Molt a longer lifetime. The previously described mechanics only apply to the current Miasma. So it's not the case that a low-duration Venom will have stronger damage ticks, or a low-duration Contagion will inflict higher toxin damage. If you want Miasma to deal high damage, you have to sacrifice the duration of the rest of Saryn's powers. If you want Venom/Molt/Contagion to have a high duration, you have to sacrifice Miasma's total damage and DPS.

I thought they would have fixed the similar issue with Trinity's Energy Vampire by now instead of introducing it to another frame.. Looks like my Saryn will be staying on the shelf for a while longer, at least until the next rework. Edited January 14, 2014 by NDroid

[Monolake]

Currently, Miasma's DPS is calculated using 1500 base damage divided by Miasma's power duration. To determine the total damage, you multiply the DPS by ( 1 + Miasma's power duration ). The shorter Miasma's duration, the more damage it will inflict (both DPS and total). 

 

No duration mods:

1500 / 4 = 375 damage per second.

375 x 5 = 1875 total damage

 

Continuity and Constitution (+58% power duration):

1500 / 6.32 = 237 damage per second.

237 x 7.32 = 1735 total damage

 

Fleeting Expertise (-60% power duration):

1500 / 1.6 = 937 damage per second

937 x 2.6 = 2436 total damage

 

I'm still unsure whether this was intentional. Either way, I'm not a fan of this mechanic. I can understand having to sacrifice powers in order to make a corrupted mod work well with my build. Power duration mods like Continuity or Constitution have no inherent penalties, so I find it a bit frustrating that I have to choose between a low-duration Venom/Molt/Contagion + high-damage Miasma and a long-duration Venom/Molt/Contagion + low-damage Miasma.

 

OMG who even though that made sense, and where would I find it if not some fellow players. Its an a buff to one ability at the same time making other abilities even more useless and its so unintuitive and game tells you nothing about how it works.

[Dinx]

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed by what they turned Saryn into. She is still my favorite frame, but for some reason they did everything they could to ruin her. Isn't maximizing your warframe abilities supposed to be about, well... MAXIMIZING them? I am already sacrificing precious polarity slots for Continuity, Stretch, Streamline and Focus in order to maximize her abilities instead of using those slots to boost her shields, knockdown resistance, speed, etc. And now I can't even put one or two ability boost mods without them rending at least two of my abilities useless. What the hell?!?!?!

 

I know this game is supposed to be about making tough decisions, and I know you can't have everything... But dammit, we already have to decide between maximizing our frame and maximizing our abilities! That's not an easy decision! And now you're telling me I ALSO have to choose which abilities will be ruined if I put 2 mods on my warframe?! I am reading the wiki right now, and I can't believe how much those mods that are supposed to MAXIMIZE my abilities actually DOWNGRADE those same abilities, i.e. doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they were supposed to do.

 

I sincerely hope they will bring things back to the way they were before. Because right now, Saryn is all but ruined.

[ExplodingStars]

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed by what they turned Saryn into. She is still my favorite frame, but for some reason they did everything they could to ruin her. Isn't maximizing your warframe abilities supposed to be about, well... MAXIMIZING them? I am already sacrificing precious polarity slots for Continuity, Stretch, Streamline and Focus in order to maximize her abilities instead of using those slots to boost her shields, knockdown resistance, speed, etc. And now I can't even put one or two ability boost mods without them rending at least two of my abilities useless. What the hell?!?!?!

 

I know this game is supposed to be about making tough decisions, and I know you can't have everything... But dammit, we already have to decide between maximizing our frame and maximizing our abilities! That's not an easy decision! And now you're telling me I ALSO have to choose which abilities will be ruined if I put 2 mods on my warframe?! I am reading the wiki right now, and I can't believe how much those mods that are supposed to MAXIMIZE my abilities actually DOWNGRADE those same abilities, i.e. doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they were supposed to do.

 

I sincerely hope they will bring things back to the way they were before. Because right now, Saryn is all but ruined.

I hope you're not implying that Saryn wasn't already gone after her indirect Venom nerf. She made barely any impact in games before U11 and it's the same after U11, giving Saryn abilities' procs doesn't make a difference. I do agree that with the introduction of Corrupted mods, her usefulness is further overshadowed because she can't utilize them as well as other Warframes. So instead of giving Saryn players more variety and choices, the Corrupted mods limited them instead. 

[EvanTheNewbie]

I hope you're not implying that Saryn wasn't already gone after her indirect Venom nerf. She made barely any impact in games before U11 and it's the same after U11, giving Saryn abilities' procs doesn't make a difference. I do agree that with the introduction of Corrupted mods, her usefulness is further overshadowed because she can't utilize them as well as other Warframes. So instead of giving Saryn players more variety and choices, the Corrupted mods limited them instead. 

She does pretty well with max damage miasma spam with fleeting. Even though my blind rage isn't even close to max, I bring in 3400 total (two ticks) to enemies with no resistance to corrosion, and 6k total to enemies weak to corrosion.

[seiryuo]

This is my wishlist for the next patch(though I know it won't happen)


Venom:
Target is tagged by 3/4/5/6 spores. Each spore ticks for 10/15/20/25 viral damage per second for 5/10/15/20 seconds(the damage output can be increased with power strength mods and duration with power duration mods). When the spores are shot they pop dealing 10/20/30/40 viral damage to any enemy within 6/9/12/15 in-game meters(increased by power strength mods and power range mods) and spread additional 1/2/3/4 spores the nearest enemy that has less then 6 active spores on them.
Apart from that each time a spore(original or created through spread) ticks it has a 25% chance of infecting a random enemy within 6/9/12/15 in-game meters(increased by power range mods) that has less then 6 active spores on them with an additional spore(the original spore is not removed and will continue to tick). Damage from ticks has a 20% status chance(each time they tick).
Equip cost: 0/1/2/3   Power range: 30/40/50/60m   Power #: 1   Energy cost: 25

Contagion:
Imbues team's weapons with toxin for additional damage. Each team members ranged weapon will have a bonus of an extra 15/25/35/50% toxin damage and melee with extra 30/50/70/100% toxin damage over the course of 15/20/25/30 seconds(bonus damage and duration time are increased only by Saryn's power strength and power duration mods). Having an affinity with poison, the extra damage for Saryn is doubled. The extra damage is calculated from weapon base damage i.e. it's calculated like any other elemental damage.
Equip cost: 4/5/6/7   Power range: team   Power #: 2   Energy cost: 50

Molt:
Saryn envelops herself in a protective cocoon with 100/200/300/400 shields, 150/300/450/600 health, 75/150/225/300 armor(increased by power strength mods and also by mods affecting total shields/health/armor of Saryn) and sheds her damaged skin healing herself for 15/25/35/45 health(increased by power strength mods) each second for 10/11/12/15 seconds(increased by power duration mods). After Saryn's healing is complete(or the cocoon is destroyed) she will leave the cocoon to continue the fight. The cocoon will agravate any enemies within sight and if destroyed prematurely will explode, dealing the amount of damage it has suffered(increased by power strength mods) as toxin to all enemies in a 7/8/9/10 in-game meter radius(increased by power range mods) . After using Molt Saryn's skin is weakened and she cannot use Molt again for 60/45/30/15 seconds(cannot be reduced by mods).
Equip cost: 6/7/8/9   Power range: self   Power #: 3   Energy cost: 75
 

Miasma:
Saryn pollutes the air around her dealing 250/300/350/450 toxin damage(increased by power strength mods) each second for 4 seconds(increased by power duration mods) to all targets in a 8/10/12/15 in-game meter radius(increased by power range mods). Targets are stunned for the duration of the skill(if the skill duration increases the stun drutaion will also). Damage from Miasma ignores 20% of the targets totall armor.
Equip cost: 10/11/12/13   Power range: 8/10/12/15m  Power #: 4   Energy cost: 100


 

Edited January 22, 2014 by seiryuo

[PhantomBR]

Take a look at what’s coming for Saryn! 

 

Venom (First Power) - Now does viral damage.

Molt (Second Power) – The Molt Decoy now gets increased health with fusion level.

Miasma (Fourth Power) - Damage increase and changed to corrosive damage type.

 

These changes will be coming soon and we are looking forward to your experiences and feedback!  

 

This thread will be unlocked as the update is deployed. Get your testing fingers ready!

Question if venom cripple viral damage and have good resistance to infected this damage, it turns out that they will not get damaged?? and about a third ability honestly tell who uses it at all?))) may be better to replace him on that sort of mass attenuation armor of the enemies? miasma and do damage as acid decomposition and destroying all before it touches.

[Phantasmo]

Miasma:

Saryn pollutes the air around her dealing 250/300/350/450 toxin damage(increased by power strength mods) each second for 4 seconds(increased by power duration mods) to all targets in a 8/10/12/15 in-game meter radius(increased by power range mods). Targets are stunned for the duration of the skill(if the skill duration increases the stun drutaion will also). Damage from Miasma ignores 20% of the targets totall armor.

Equip cost: 10/11/12/13   Power range: 8/10/12/15m  Power #: 4   Energy cost: 100

 

 

Useless. Your team will take the kills before you do.

 

Guys, face it: actually, Miasma is awesome and if Saryn needs any changes they should be aimed at the other three abilities.

Miasma is great the way it is.

[ExplodingStars]

Useless. Your team will take the kills before you do.

 

Guys, face it: actually, Miasma is awesome and if Saryn needs any changes they should be aimed at the other three abilities.

Miasma is great the way it is.

Disagree, as if the a team ain't already racking up more kills than the Saryn in it. There are people who want Saryn to be viable at high lvls for all factions. Miasma is currently considered to be the last tattered bastion of hope for her and that ain't saying much.

Even then, Corpus and Infested aren't even armor heavy, Miasma is effective only against Grineer. 

Therefore I think Saryn needs work on all 4 of her abilities. 

[seiryuo]

Useless. Your team will take the kills before you do.

 

Guys, face it: actually, Miasma is awesome and if Saryn needs any changes they should be aimed at the other three abilities.

Miasma is great the way it is.

Especially corpus kills(toxin bypasses shields). Not to mention that 20% armor ignore will give her more damage vs heavy enemy units than corrosive now while remaining decent against ferrite. Miasma as it is now sucks(not to mention the power duration bug)- it does not scale and is unable to kill units above 45 level in any way(apart from ferrite/fossilized).

Edited January 23, 2014 by seiryuo

[ExplodingStars]

Especially corpus kills(toxin bypasses shields). Not to mention that 20% armor ignore will give her more damage vs heavy enemy units than corrosive now while remaining decent against ferrite. Miasma as it is now sucks(not to mention the power duration bug)- it does not scale and is unable to kill units above 45 level in any way(apart from ferrite/fossilized).

Exactly, Saryn feels underwhelming as hell against anything but the non heavy generic Grineer. Designs that renders abilities scale poorly like all of Saryn's needs to be not be repeated and needs to be reworked. 

[PsycloneM]

Essay incoming...

 

I think it's too early to say procs don't make a difference considering Saryn's powers currently have a very low status chance. From what I've experienced, each damage tick on Venom has a 2% - 5% status chance, whereas Miasma has a 0% status chance. I have never seen a single tick of corrosive damage from Miasma trigger the -25% armor reduction, and Venom's viral procs occur far too infrequently to be useful. Saryn has the potential to be an effective armor and health-reducing debuffer: she has the damage types to accomplish this, but the status chances are simply not in her favor.

 

I would like to see the status chance of Venom's ticks increased to 10% - 12.5%. The reason I'm not comfortable with a 100% status chance as suggested several times here is because of the way viral debuffs stack. A single debuff will reduce the infected enemy's health to 50% of the original value (max and current health). When the debuff expires, the enemy's health is reset to original values, minus the damage that was taken while the debuff was active. If another debuff were to occur while the first was active, the enemy does not have its health reduced to 25% as you would expect. The first debuff will just have an extended duration. What does happen is that once the debuff expires, the enemy's current health will not reset to its original value. Rather, the enemy will be left with 50% of its original health, minus whatever damage was taken while the debuff was active, with 100% of its maximum health restored. This translates to a large chunk of health removed regardless of the enemy's level.

 

With a 100% status chance, you're going to have 4-6 procs going off simultaneously every second. Considering what I just mentioned, that would be far too powerful. All that's needed in my opinion is for there to be enough successful procs during Venom's duration to sustain the 50% health reduction.

 

In this example, assume the enemy has four spores attached. With an 11.25% status chance for each damage tick, there is a 31.5% chance that one viral proc would occur for each second. Over a 15-second duration, it is very likely that a viral debuff will proc 4-5 times. While the debuff is active, Venom's damage ticks will essentially be dealing 2x damage as the enemy's health is halved. At much higher difficulties when the damage becomes negligible, Venom will still remain useful due to the 50% health reduction it provides.

 

As all enemies have health, Venom has the capacity to be a health-reducing tool that would be useful against all factions.

 

 

I've brought up the issue with power duration and Miasma several times here. I really think this power needs to scale linearly with increased duration as it did before; it's completely counterintuitive that power duration would benefit all of her powers with the exception of Miasma. It's also frustrating to impose a choice between improving/diminishing the effectiveness of one power over her entire skill set when corrupted mods aren't being used in the build.

 

That said, Miasma would have more use against alloy-armored heavies and elites if each damage tick had an improved chance to proc the corrosive debuff. To me, this kind of utility should not be restricted as Miasma has nothing else going for it other than its damage and stun. 

 

I suggest that each tick of Miasma should have a 25% - 50% status chance. Consider the following example. Let's say you are facing a level 100 napalm. Even with Focus equipped, the 7594 armor napalm is only going to take a whopping 18 damage per second for a 4-second duration Miasma (90 total damage). With a 37.5% status chance, 1-2 out of 5 damage ticks have the highest probability of triggering the armor debuff. Each proc reduces the napalm's armor by -25%. For two procs, that's 7594 x 0.75 ^ 2 = 4271 armor after one cast. The level 100 napalm now has the armor of a level 72 napalm.

 

Combine this with Venom's health reduction, the level 100 napalm will also have the health of a level 72 napalm for Venom's duration. If there's concern that Miasma would be too specialized against Grineer, my argument would be that combined with Venom, Miasma would still be able to sufficiently damage high-health enemies of other factions. The problem now is the lack of AoE toxin damage that was useful against Corpus due to its characteristic of bypassing shields.

 

 

Even with Molt's upgraded health, it still rapidly succumbs to enemy damage on high difficulties. I used to play Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, and there were several kits with "pet" skills (combat drone, sentry/geth turret, decoy) that were used to draw aggro from ranged attackers. On the highest difficulties, these decoys were immediately one-shotted unless strategically placed. However, it was possible to spec some of these powers to detonate upon destruction in order to stun enemies, or to trigger tech combos. 

 

As Molt suffers a similar fate, I would like to see it detonate for 100-200 gas damage in a 10-15 m radius when destroyed, with a 50% status chance. Enemies (especially melee units) are going to be drawn very close to Molt before it detonates. Gas damage procs create a toxin damage burst and DoT on enemies near the proc source. With enemies clustered around Molt, it would be possible for them to receive the initial gas damage plus several instances of the AoE toxin damage and DoT (the toxin DoT stacks).

 

If this initial damage were to behave like most explosion-based powers in the game, the damage would scale with distance and have the potential to deal head shots. The way the toxin damage is calculated from a gas proc is based entirely on the initial damage before resistances and damage reduction from armor. For maximum damage upon a successful proc, a 150 gas damage detonation will produce an additional 75 toxin damage in a small AoE around the target, and each target in that AoE will take 37 toxin damage per second for 8 seconds (nine total ticks). If the proc happens to be a head shot (excluding Corpus crewmen), that would translate to 300 gas damage, 300 radial toxin damage, and 300 toxin damage per second for 8 seconds. 

 

 

If Molt dealt gas damage upon destruction with a 50% proc chance, Saryn would have all of the toxin elemental damage types at her disposal: health reduction and gas damage/procs against Infested, health reduction and gas procs (radial toxin damage and toxin DoT) for Corpus, health reduction and armor reduction for Grineer. With Melee 2.0 around the corner, Contagion could be used in combination with your melee weapon's elemental damage to produce a toxin elemental for the appropriate faction. With a slight modification to Molt and increased status chances for Venom and Miasma, Saryn could be a more versatile warframe than she is now.

 

 

Venom:

• Increase the status chance of each individual damage tick to 10% - 12.5%.

Molt:

• Upon destruction, allow Molt to detonate for 100-200 gas damage in a 10-15 m radius. Affected by power strength and range. This damage has a 50% status chance, decreases with distance, and can deal head shots.

Miasma:

• Consider making Miasma a true DPS power that scales linearly with power duration, removing the damage cap in the process. Increase the status chance of each damage tick to 25% - 50%.

 

On a side note, Venom and Contagion's names should be switched. Contagion is better suited to be the name of the power that spreads an infectious viral disease to nearby enemies, whereas Venom would be the power that imbues your melee weapon with toxins.

Edited January 26, 2014 by PsycloneM

[AzureAura]

I got her not too long ago and I love her so far. I actually got her for her design originally (because I'm a chick who likes pretty things). I wasn't really happy with her until I started to use her Miasma.

[Terrokar]

As we are talking about Saryn's changes, there is one domestic, but eyes-hurting problem with her. Primary Weapon.

When i have, say, Grakata on her back, since i kill mostly with my Aklex, it looks horribly terrible. Seriously, it's like if it was pinned to her shoulder. I'd do something to make it more on her back, could even be on some degree and cross with melee weapon, but just don't hang out from nowhere in such $&*&*#(%& position. So just please do something about it :3

[Noble_Cactus]

How much armor do enemies typically have around Lv50 and up? I was thinking maybe Miasma could reduce armor, then deal Corrosive damage based on the amount of armor drained. It's a cheap copy of Shield Polarize with an added stun, but maybe that idea could be tweaked a bit to make it more unique.

[(PSN)coolpattak]

I feel for saryn like I feel for my scindo.  They look great but kinda worthless which is a shame.  Now if they added more status chance with miasma that would be great.  Does viral/corrosive price stack up with viral/corrosive?  Then contagion would be worth using but not sure about how all her damage works

[PsycloneM]

How much armor do enemies typically have around Lv50 and up? I was thinking maybe Miasma could reduce armor, then deal Corrosive damage based on the amount of armor drained. It's a cheap copy of Shield Polarize with an added stun, but maybe that idea could be tweaked a bit to make it more unique.

 

A level 50 trooper, elite lancer, and napalm have 830, 703, and 2379 armor respectively. Each of those armor values corresponds to a damage reduction roughly equal to 73%, 70%, and 89%.

 

Regarding Miasma, the nice thing about this power in my opinion is that it already has the capacity to reduce armor due to its damage type. That's what the corrosive debuff does; unfortunately, Miasma's status chance is effectively zero. Allowing each damage tick to have a reliable (not necessarily guaranteed) proc would allow this power to have some utility against high-armored or alloy-armored enemies. When the damage of Miasma becomes ineffective, you would at least have an AoE armor debuff to improve the damage output of your weapons.

 

 

 Does viral/corrosive price stack up with viral/corrosive?

 

Stacked viral debuffs do not continue to reduce the enemy's health by 50% for each additional proc. The debuff will just last longer. However, when the debuff expires, the enemy's health will not reset to 100% of the original value before the initial health reduction occurred. So with stacked viral debuffs, it's possible to remove a significant amount of health when the effect wears off (while still dealing effectively 2x damage to the enemy when active).

 

Corrosive debuffs, on the other hand, stack the way you'd expect them to. With three debuffs, a 1000-armor enemy will have its armor reduced to 1000 x 0.75 ^ 3 = 421.  

Edited January 30, 2014 by PsycloneM

[[DE]Megan]

Great feedback and suggestions have been made in regards to Saryn:

 

·         Venom is still fairly useless as most of the enemies are dead before the full effects can take place.

·         Venom: Increase the status chance of each individual damage tick to 10% - 12.5%.

·         Molt: Upon destruction, allow Molt to detonate for 100-200 gas damage in a 10-15 m radius. Affected by power strength and range. This damage has a 50% status chance, decreases with distance, and can deal head shots.

·         Miasma: Consider making Miasma a true DPS power that scales linearly with power duration, removing the damage cap in the process. Increase the status chance of each damage tick to 25% - 50%.

 

We will continue to give each Warframe some love when the time is appropriate, thanks for everyone's thoughts!

 

Locking this thread!