De, It's Time To Stop Relying On Rng Instead Of Game Design

[Bdembz]

It's pretty clear finding that sweet spot hasn't been easy - doing whatever is possible in the short-term (moving new prime stuff to Orokin Derelict instead of further diluting Void) are, as OP said, somewhat "bandaids" to a growing issue - so what can we do in the long-term? The token system for the Void has always been a floating discussion, but that really only applies to Prime gear (and Forma) - a token toward a Paris Prime String isn't going to solve a new players plight to get a Serration with the Mod Drop System. 

 

There is a lot of frustration about different aspects of RNG which all boil down to not getting what is sought - new player or not.

 

Different long-term solutions have to be released for respective "RNG" areas. Arming players with 100% accurate knowledge of where Mods are (via scanning) was an effort to alleviate some frustration with that are, but as always, more work to do! (Mission Rewards, etc).

 

With the implementation of the new Damage system, I feel that the next major issue that DE is going to have to overcome is the Mod system (which to some extent includes RNG because with a pool of mods that will only continue to grow, RNG will become harder and harder to find the so called sweet spot). Personally, I have no idea what to do about it, but I feel changes will have to be made.

[Shin]

 The token system for the Void has always been a floating discussion, but that really only applies to Prime gear (and Forma) - a token toward a Paris Prime String isn't going to solve a new players plight to get a Serration with the Mod Drop System. 

How about adding every single mod / part / blueprints into that token system? 

 

Would take a lot of work but people would try to get Tokens for the things they want, instead of trying to farm them in someplace depending on the never smiling RNG. For example in my first 20 tries of Oberon runs, i got 20 chasis, after that i ran 10 more, i got the systems on the 8 run or something.

 

Or you guys can make the Challange / Achievements worth something / killing 100 would reward you with a Serration mod, Picking up 10 health orbs in a single mission would give you an Health mod  which would solve the new players main mod problem.

 

There are tons of ways to counter RNG, You guys are trying to solve the problem by yourselves,  i think DE should make a Poll to solve this never endign RNG problem because no matter what you do with RNG, there will be players who never gets the single most important thing they want for months.

 

Sure RNG is fine sometimes, i remember collecting Frost prime, mag prime, glavie prime parts and latron parts in 30 runs, but there are people who's still searching for a part of the thing they want. 

 

People wants to see their efforts rewarded.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Shin

[Kaian-a-coel]

From some people's posts you'd think they thought Warframe was the only game that uses an RNG system... News flash, it isn't. Almost every game uses RNG to some extent. RNG is part of game design, not something used in place of it. Stop complaining about subjects in which you are ignorant.

You make me laugh. Sure, RNG can be used as part of game design, and some games use it well. But games can be done without it, from chess to Starcraft. And then there's games using RNG in place of game design.

Like some films use explosions instead of a scenario, Warframe uses RNG instead of a proper overarching gameplay (beyond shooting stuff I mean).

RNG is all good and fun, until there's too much of it. And there's too much of it when it stops being fun.

You're telling me I'm ignorant when it comes to my personal enjoyment? Warframe's excessive RNG gets in the way of my fun, that, I know.

[Takai]

(cut)

3. Despite the playerbase being fairly explicit in their hatred of RNG as a means of progression, you still haven't learnt your lesson there, either. Players still have absolute must have mods, such as health, or raw damage, things that shouldn't even be mods at all because they aren't a choice, locked away by RNG, with many important mods unavailable until either later areas, or from rare mobs. With the new damage rework system for example, having access to one of each element has become an essential aspect of gameplay, and yet then there is Contagious Spread, an example of a mod that has a random chance of dropping, from a rare enemy, that seems to only spawn in certain missions, which may or may not exist at any given time due to randomly shifting infestations.

(cut)

I agree with most of your perspectives about RNG. One solution to the issue you stated above that  especially  applies to new players is; to give the new players 3  essential  mods in the tutorial mission(s). I was thinking; Serration, Vitality, Fast Deflection. Those mods are the basic blocks of what a player needs to fight and survive (outside of the suit abilities that are given).

 

Not only are those mods expensive but they also take time and can be a visual progress bar that can  motivate  a player. I  believe  mods like that should not be initially locked away to RNG,  especially  the drop rate of Serration.

 

It is sad when I go online and do a survive and see a new player  desperately  trying to pew pew a Grineer with his starter gun, and you know his/her serration is less then half full or not present (they might not even know about it). Most of the time they do not want to be left alone when the Rocket guys come out.

 

I made a thread with a idea similar to a "frequent book shopper" card... I called it a void runner card. Run 10, get a part free. Players there seemed to like the idea.

 

As a beginner programmer I think of RNG as  a limited range threshold of integers. You set the max and min (this is how the weapons work too) and run them under the condition of a event  occurring. I get honestly a bit scared when I think about doubles like 3.5% or 7.5% for void parts dropping. It makes me think of a range between 1.0 and 100.0 and you have to be lucky enough to have the code output a range between 1 - 4 or 93 and 100 for something to even drop. Not even taking into account the RNG range for the key to drop. Im sure DE's RNG  algorithmic  is more complex (mabeh) or at least the generator is not basing itself from the clients clock. 

 

Regardless, any kind of token or punchcard would be most welcome. A neat thing that could be done too is there could only be items you can get from getting X amount of tokens.

[f3llyn]

Reading threads like these on an almost daily basis is frankly scaring me a bit. Back when I started on the forums in May, it was chock full of people praising DE and complimenting them for adding new and innovative items and frames like Dojos, Clantech Weapons, Vauban and things of the sort. Seeing the state of the community now is kind of terrifying to me. I don't want this game to die yet. I just hope that this is a phase and that we all can work towards making Warframe as awesome as it was at the start of the year.

 

The game won't die if DE actually give the game a real direction. Right now there is no point to anything other than to grind.

[Brasten]

However Warframe relies exclusively on it, and has no other way of ensuring you get X or Y.

 

I.e. BL2 has a lot of RNG, BUT quests will always give you some sort of loot, be it a blue SMG, or a purple sniper, or so on.

Lets go deeper into that though. In BL2 or even classic dungeon crawls like D2 (which DE pulled as an influence to both the loot and drop system) the progression rate is more or less stable. As you kill forward in the game you will find items that you can use to advance, to beat up more bad guys. This is where Warframe fails at being a dungeon crawler. If you have never played it, Alien Syndrome for the Wii does this way better.

Not going to touch D3, Real Money shop messed that up.

What DE hasn't really tried yet is the multi-step crafting system. More kin to TF2, Skyrim, EVE-Online. The Mod 2.0 system is actually this kind of crafting in small form. Once you obtain a Mod you use all the other "junk" you've been collecting up to that point to advance it.

You "crawl" for junk, to use to Craft what you want.

However DE is not playing it that way. They just keep throwing down more and more things that they think is a "dungeon crawl" style RNG loot drop system.

Skyrim has a bloody RNG element, but it also has Crafting! The loot and weapons in most dungeons is randomly set based on both area level and player level. Level appropriate gear can be found, or if the exact combination of things you want can't be found you can Craft it by breaking down Magical junk.

[BETAOPTICS]

From some people's posts you'd think they thought Warframe was the only game that uses an RNG system... News flash, it isn't. Almost every game uses RNG to some extent. RNG is part of game design, not something used in place of it. Stop complaining about subjects in which you are ignorant.

Yes go away if you can not bring anything to the table SquirmyBurrito. It has been stated that is part of nearly every game but most games only rely on RNG very little compared to what other content they have. This game on the other hand relies too much solely on RNG mechanic. Also you are the one enforcing ignorance here just because we want improvements and you feel there is no need for it so of course we know nothing about anything, after all you are the only one that knows about stuff. Ok exaggaration but still.

Edited December 30, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[spacedkadet]

look at it this way:

 

There are 2 types of player (there are more but this is broad), those that are happy to repeat the missions and earn their reward (like me), we can repeat it and enjoy it even if we don't get it for a long time. there there is the type of player that wants to get the reward quickly and with less "chance".

 Neither player is right or wrong, this game is currently aimed at player 1 so player 2 comes to the forums and tried to change the game to player 2's preference.

 

I see that as quite simple way to look at it, you either like the way the game is or you don't. 

 

I do agree that what we have needs cleaning up, the drop tables are a mess with things scattered in no particular place, I would prefer to see a 4th void level (t4) and spy/sabotage/deception missions added so we can balance the tables better. But i have no problem with rng as a means to an end. It's not like the stuff doesn't drop, I am not a psychotic farmer but i do play the missions until i get what i want and as such have all the items, including 2x ember primes (both from drops not prime access). 

 

Clean the tables, add more missions and I think most people would be happier, both player type 1 and 2 :D

 

N.B not trying to be funny or argue instead trying to post it the way it is :) 

[SquirmyBurrito]

However Warframe relies exclusively on it, and has no other way of ensuring you get X or Y.

 

I.e. BL2 has a lot of RNG, BUT quests will always give you some sort of loot, be it a blue SMG, or a purple sniper, or so on.

 

Not exclusively. Different items can only be found on certain missions or only drop from certain mobs. It isn't a complete cluster f- of rng. If you're asking for quests that guarantee a specific drop, alerts kinda fit that description.

 

You make me laugh. Sure, RNG can be used as part of game design, and some games use it well. But games can be done without it, from chess to Starcraft. And then there's games using RNG in place of game design.

Like some films use explosions instead of a scenario, Warframe uses RNG instead of a proper overarching gameplay (beyond shooting stuff I mean).

RNG is all good and fun, until there's too much of it. And there's too much of it when it stops being fun.

You're telling me I'm ignorant when it comes to my personal enjoyment? Warframe's excessive RNG gets in the way of my fun, that, I know.

 

I'm pretty sure Starcraft utilizes rng. 

 

[bunch of irrelevant stuff, some seems to stem from ignorance]

 

I never said anything about your personal enjoyment, bro. Learn to read. RNG exists in most games, many of those games have established a balance between their drops that satisfies their community. Warframe hasn't done this for reasons that have already been listed by others.

 

Yes go away if you can not bring anything to the table SquirmyBurrito. It has been stated that is part of nearly every game but most games only rely on RNG very little compared to what other content they have. This game on the other hand relies too much solely on RNG mechanic. Also you are the one enforcing ignorance here just because we want improvements and you feel there is no need for it so of course we know nothing about anything, after all you are the only one that knows about stuff. Ok exaggaration but still.

 

I'm sorry, I don't take orders from you. 

 

Please, list comparable (to warframe) games that do not utilize RNG to an extent similar to warframe.

 

I am not 'enforcing ignorance' by stating facts. That makes no sense in this context. What you call an improvement might not be considered an improvement by the next guy. And yes, that was a huge exaggeration. I never said or implied anything close to that.

 

I simply stated that RNG exists in more games than Warframe. To be more specific, it exists in MOST games. And decides things that most people don't even think about. RNG isn't just used to dictate drop chance in games.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Not exclusively. Different items can only be found on certain missions or only drop from certain mobs. It isn't a complete cluster f- of rng. If you're asking for quests that guarantee a specific drop, alerts kinda fit that description.

...but it's entirely based on RNG, it could never drop, or every mod every mob in that level possess could drop in one run.

 

And alerts =/= quests, because again, they're almost* 100% based on RNG, you can't expect an alert on mimas to be the same as the next one that's on mimas. Alerts are nothing like quests in BL2.

 

In short, yes, it is a complete clusterfuck of RNG, there is nothing you are guaranteed in WF other nano spores, alloy plates, and credits.

 

*supposedly the chance for repeat items alerts shouldn't happen, but obviously that's not true as we've seen times where one item pops up a few times in a row.

 

I'm pretty sure Starcraft utilizes rng.

As an avid starcraft fan, I can assure you that starcraft (at least in multiplayer) does not use RNG. For example, if an unupgraded Marine takes say, 3 shots to kill something, it will ALWAYS take 3 shots to kill that thing while unupgraded, so you can develop actual skill by learning what engagements a force of XYZ can or cannot fight and win.

[taiiat]

-snip-

other than randomizers, main mechanics used in Video Games are.... Linear Story progressions, where every weapon, box of ammo, health pickup, story trigger, and level change are hand placed. everyone will have 100% the exact same experience, because it is a scripted ladder. 

that works great for Singleplayer games that you never play again - but Warframe is a Multiplayer game where players are expected to go through the same content many times, without running out of things to do.

 

that doesn't make the randomizer perfect, but it's a very common mechanic used in hundreds of games.

however, Warframe is more open ended than many other games. even those big MMO's that people play for thousands of hours - have a linear progression story. you are awarded this and that at specific times. only when you get to the 'endgame' (which pretty much sums up to instanced dueling over and over, or just running through caves and fighting single enemies with 235982353259635253275237856HP to make them take a long time to kill so you feel like you got gameplay out of it).

 

due to the open ended nature, Warframe has more issues with the same mechanics than other games may have. but, that's because the game is flexible. we aren't being forced to all play the same thing at the same time, use the same equipment, level our whatever the same way(in theory, yes i know mods are kind've linear), Et Cetera. the downside to open ended nature, is issues in other places, rather than with player flexibility.

 

In response to the DE comment:

 

Token system in the void on top of the existing RNG. That way you can still get lucky in one run but if you've still not got that part you need 50 runs in then you can just buy it.

 

One-time mission rewards that give out the bare essentials on mercury/venus.

 

Bonus codex scans/Scans for hard to find enemies as mission rewards and/or dropped as data fragments ingame, making it easier to fill a codex and consequently track down those mods that you need.

 

that actually sounds really good. i'm still hesitant for any 'token' system, because that's a rather dry Currency grind - which players will applaud for 5 minutes, then complain the Currency grind they've been pushing for is boring and Grindy. 

Go Figure.

Just make every prime piece trade-able. Doing this would allow people with ten billion Ember Prime Chassis to trade the people with ten billion Ember Prime Systems. Thus making everyone happy =)

 

trading is a bad system. in theory, being able to swap stuff with your friends sounds great. but when you add in several hundred thousand players that have everything you've ever wanted in their combined inventories, your estimated occupied time for a set of content will go from hundreds of hours to less than a dozen.

and then, every complaint changes to 'not enough content'. because you completed everything that the average player wants to complete in a set of content, in a single day, or less.

However Warframe relies exclusively on it, and has no other way of ensuring you get X or Y.

 

I.e. BL2 has a lot of RNG, BUT quests will always give you some sort of loot, be it a blue SMG, or a purple sniper, or so on.

 

Borderlands guaranteed you some tiers of equipment, yes. 

but you still had to get stupid lucky in order for that reward to actually be something good.

all too often your super special quest reward would be an extravagant rarity, but would have some feature to it that made it unusable, or just simply crap.

such as... say, you get a Sub Machine Gun. it shoots bouncy laser bolts, does a ton of damage, accurate, all of the good stuff. but it's magazine size is like 10 and it's Optic is some absurd 50x zoom thing. the gun has been ruined.

 

you grinded just as much in Borderlands as you did in Warframe. just grinding for different things. grinding for gun stats, instead of grinding for gun parts and mods.

You make me laugh. Sure, RNG can be used as part of game design, and some games use it well. But games can be done without it, from chess to Starcraft. And then there's games using RNG in place of game design.

Like some films use explosions instead of a scenario, Warframe uses RNG instead of a proper overarching gameplay (beyond shooting stuff I mean).

RNG is all good and fun, until there's too much of it. And there's too much of it when it stops being fun.

You're telling me I'm ignorant when it comes to my personal enjoyment? Warframe's excessive RNG gets in the way of my fun, that, I know.

 

almost every game uses a Randomizer for integral features. it gives variance. it keeps it from being the same all the time.

 

the usage of it, ranges from randomized music and backgrounds, to randomized content.

sure, Chess isn't randomized. but that's because the game is identical every second. it never changes. it is a strategy game, and that's it. nothing else. at all.

 

what would you prefer? a Linear Story experience where content is not randomized, but story gated from you? that's kind've the other major way to pace out content.

so instead of grinding materials and mods, you'd be grinding quests. what changed? nothing really, you're still putting in time, and not getting what you want out. the vast majority of those quests will be time filler, collect 5 thingamajigs that will require you to kill 50 thingamajigs, get some XP and money or w/e. and then 5234523957 more of those quests.

 

a game with a lot of content intending for you to invest a lot of time, must have a way to gate you from the game, and pace things out accordingly. 

this does not make randomizers exceptionally reliable, but it's a better choice than having a billion quests to complete that i don't care about. 

 

hell, a lot of big online games like that, even gate you in the way of just pure time filler, with no content at all. 

what am i referring to? 'for your next quest, go to this place that's 15 minutes of walking away, talk to him, and come back and talk to me again'.

that's time grinding. you achieved nothing, and did nothing, but it took up time, so extended your time spent in the game.

 

 

every game 'gets in the way of your fun' in order to extend the life of content. this isn't something new. 

but players complain just as much if a game just gives you a bucket of stuff and says 'go crazy'. you'll get bored, due to 'not enough content'.

but it was the same amount of content! what happened? well, you got all of the content at once, which means you probably skipped some of it, because other parts grabbed your attention more, and you forgot about some of the other stuff.

 

Development time spent making something... but you ended up skipping it, or not spending that much time with it. not the fault of the player, just when you get inundated with content, you're very likely to get overwhelmed and skip a bunch of it.

[tmtke]

Some small things to add can move the balance I think.

 

* Targeted hits (criticals) should nudge the RNG chance towards rarer mods.

* Add some more hidden places as in OV/OD with containers dropping mods (which are necessary to the actual game level). This would help to be the game less rushing I think.

[lautalocos]

It's pretty clear finding that sweet spot hasn't been easy - doing whatever is possible in the short-term (moving new prime stuff to Orokin Derelict instead of further diluting Void) are, as OP said, somewhat "bandaids" to a growing issue - so what can we do in the long-term? The token system for the Void has always been a floating discussion, but that really only applies to Prime gear (and Forma) - a token toward a Paris Prime String isn't going to solve a new players plight to get a Serration with the Mod Drop System. 

 

There is a lot of frustration about different aspects of RNG which all boil down to not getting what is sought - new player or not.

 

Different long-term solutions have to be released for respective "RNG" areas. Arming players with 100% accurate knowledge of where Mods are (via scanning) was an effort to alleviate some frustration with that are, but as always, more work to do! (Mission Rewards, etc).

well, you could go and do the heartstone way.

if im not wrong, you can break cards into magic dust (or something like that i think, never played heartstone by myself)

with that magic dust, you can obtain a random, but more powerfull card, BUT, with warframe, if you do make this, we could make specific mods instead of being dependant of RNG.

this could replace the transmutation system. maybe 4 rare mods can let you choose from any other rare mod.

 

also, the token system for the void would be great.

[Judge_Hellboy]

Possible solution: Well not the full solution but something to help newer players.

 

Quests:

There is already a 'quest line' per se. Clear each planet and defeat the boss. The Lotus marking out clear objectives with rewards (and a little bit of clarifying lore) would do wonders to push this along. Darvo would randomly pop in with more unique requests with uncommon rewards like serration. This would offset the RNG a little and make sure players have the basic 'needs' as far as mods go like all the +%DMG mods.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Possible solution: Well not the full solution but something to help newer players.

 

Quests:

There is already a 'quest line' per se. Clear each planet and defeat the boss. The Lotus marking out clear objectives with rewards (and a little bit of clarifying lore) would do wonders to push this along. Darvo would randomly pop in with more unique requests with uncommon rewards like serration. This would offset the RNG a little and make sure players have the basic 'needs' as far as mods go like all the +%DMG mods.

A simple solution I saw somewhere else was a suggestion to make "Mk1" versions of various other weapons like Gorgon and the like that cost only a cheap amount of credits (around the Mk1-Braton's cost). This would allow new players to try out various weapons and determine their playstyles without wasting too many resources later on.

 

Building on that (and my earlier comment about frames evolving), I wouldn't mind if the three starter frames were given some sort of special 'buff' at level 30 that let them use another frame(s) Key 1 skill at the cost of say, increased Mod capacity. This would allow players to do something with all those Slash Dashes/Venoms/Freezes/etc... that seem to drop like crazy in the earlier areas, and also gives a moderately experienced player a chance to try something fresh such as an Excalibur using Pull without having to put together/buy the frame and then regret spending their money/resources on it.

 

@ DERebecca - Thanks for the response. It's good to see that this thread is being given the attention it needs.  I take that back.

 

As most of my (and other players) long term suggestions have already been made and put out on the thread, I'd say a skim through the first 3 pages of this thread are a great way to get some ideas - notable ones being T4-5 voids, 'node-only' maps (like, you don't have to make a whole new planet for node groups, just give us some nice bg animation ala Void and some nodes with new enemies and some remixed bosses), extending new areas of off existing areas (Moon, Saturn Spy Cell), having a "play X times to get Y specific part" system combined with the current (and hopefully soon to be tweaked) RNG drop system. (And if I had to ask you avoid one thing, it'd be copying Stalker at this point. I don't mind being killed by him and Zanuka all day and not getting their stuff, but I will mind if there are more and more bosses in the game locked behind very rare RNG appearance rates.)

Edited December 31, 2013 by ZephyrPhantom

[remonvv]

First of all, I'm not disagreeing with OP and I'm a relatively new player. That said, I'd like to point out that RNG isn't a thing in and by itself. Randomness (the R in RNG) or procedurally generated content is pretty much a requirement to keep the cost of content manageable. Having completely scripted out storyline missions and such is extremely time consuming and expensive so randomly generating or adjusting content to give it higher replay value is perfectly fine and sane.

 

RNG is a acronym used in the Warframe community for pretty much every part of the game which dilutes the discussion. Another issue I have with this discussion is the lack of suggested solutions. If you feel something is not working right sit back and think about a possible solution. It obviously isn't our job to improve the game (we're not even sure someone's reading this) but it will show you the alternatives might not be as straightforward. So, with that said, a few suggestions from me :

 

1) First of all, survival missions should not have random, non-unique rewards. Every 5 minute tier should have a specific drop table that has increasingly rare items. Getting an uncommon 5 core after 40 minutes is just daft. Same goes for defense missions.

 

2) Remove ability mods from drop tables. They're drop clutter and nobody but newer players need them. All ability mods only rank to 3 which is very easy to get to.

 

3) All future content additions should involve at least one new "mission" with one but preferably multiple boss encounters in a single run. In such a system each boss should have a specific drop table with reasonably high drop chances. This should allow DE to play with difficulty rather than farm length more easily. It is more fun to fight a very difficult boss for a 8% drop chance than easy mode your way to 17 hours of normal farm for a 0.01% drop chance. Bosses generally have a higher fun factor and thus are less problematic as farm.

 

4) Polarized weapons and frames should still count towards mastery rank. I'm aware that sort of defeats the "mastery" aspect of it but at least this gives people something to chase once they reach what we'll charitably call the end game. I don't really want to buy tons of sub par weapons and such to keep my mastery going. Once that's done, link mastery to your drop tables so higher mastery means higher percentage of rarer drops. No end game player needs 79 Pressure Point mods.

 

5) On that note, generally avoid "filler" drops. Make drops rare, and make sure that when they happen there's a good chance the player reaction is anywhere between "well alright" and "awesome!". The higher level the player, the higher level the mods. Can make it total conclave value based if the mastery idea above is not acceptable.

 

6) Most importantly (if somewhat unrelated to RNG), avoid adding weapons and warframes continuously. That simply does not scale towards the future. Warframe additions should be a once a year thing. Weapon additions perhaps slightly more common but not much. Balance the ones we have and spend energy on content, polish, fun encounters, events. The problem with adding warframes at this rate is that DE is going to end up having to make bigger and bigger leaps for original abilities and niches. Nekros is already an example of an exceptionally bad idea (a frame that affects drops makes it either a must for end game or irrelevant depending on which way the ability goes in terms of balancing).

 

A small PS : I'm not a founder (would have been if I knew of the game at that time) but I actually do think founders should have a stronger voice in this. That was the premise that was promised to them, it should be honored.

[DarkSunnies]

One solution that I don't see anyone (or if it has and I missed it, my appologies) is a Lotus/Tenno run Trade in store. 

 

So you ran a Vor 15 times and got 5 Seer Blueprints, 6 Seer Pistol Barrels, but no Seer Pistol Receiver, you could go to the Trade-In store and exchange a "Indicative of Effort Spent" high number of "Unwanted" Seer blueprints and Barrel parts to get a single Seer Pistol Receiver.

 

This would take out a lot of the sting of RNG Drop tables and help everyone, new and experienced players. 

 

One important facet would be only like for like. You could only trade-in Seer parts for another Seer part, Mag Prime parts for a missing Mag Prime part, etc. And you would have a rather high number of parts/blueprints required in order to get the part you wanted. It wouldn't be 1:1, but more like 5:1 or 10:1. 

 

It would make it more worthwhile to try to last longer in Survivals or try going for that difficult boss again or run through the voids, if we could turn "junk" into something useful.

[Dornez]

I now have 60 orokin cells all from Ruk....do you realize how many runs it takes to get 60 damn orokin cells!?

 

I STILL HAVE NOT SEEN A SPLIT CHAMBER OR CONTINUITY

 

F this the game was in a sad state of nothing to do 6 months ago now it is a grind fest for "Rare" common mods

 

Over 126 hours played you know how many serration mods I have found? ONE!

 

Seriously F this RNG BULL

[Xrylene]

Alright Remonvv, you ask for suggested solutions, so here's my rough draft of ideas so far. It's only in a draft state, and is missing several elements, and when it's done will become it's own thread, but for now I'll toss it out for you guys to pick at. These are not in any particular order yet either. Note that not all of these ideas are based off of targeting RNG, the real problem I'm trying to address here is the lack of gameplay content that RNG tries to cover up. If we get gameplay content, we don't need as much RNG.

 

1. Create a linear path of preset missions of varying types leading from the entry point of the system to the boss. Include lore and story to give a sense of progression form point A to point B, The Lotus should have lines to give background for each mission, and terminals should be scannable like in Metroid Prime to read further into back story. Connect one optional mission of each objective type as branching paths, these missions are randomized as the current ones are, but each have a "endless" element to them. When playing any non-Story/non-Alert mission, upon reaching extraction you will have the option to be dropped off deeper into the level, which re-randomizes the map and increases the difficulty, and the rewards.

 

2. Reward tokens based off of the system being played in for completing missions, 5 tokens for each story mission that is completed for the first time, 1 for future runs, optional missions provide a scaling number starting at 1, and increasing by 2, then 3, and so on per set of objectives completed. Each system has it's own tokens(Mercury Tokens, Pluto Tokens, etc), and each boss has it's own tokens(Vor Tokens, Ambulas Tokens, etc). Additionally, each mission objective type has it's own token type(Defense Tokens, Survival Tokens, etc). Tokens can be redeemed for blueprints corresponding to the sector(Phobos tokens for the Miter, Earth tokens for the Karak, etc). Combinations of tokens can also be redeemed for Void Keys, using tokens of each mission type besides the one you want combined with sector tokens to determine tower level(Mercury + Venus for Tower 1, Earth + Mars for Tower 2, etc). Each tower level awards a Void Token with a level appropriate to the tower's level, these can then be redeemed for Prime blueprints. Each event awards 2 Lotus Tokens upon completion of the entire event, these can be spent on all past, present, and future event exclusive gear, with the current event only costing one token and all previous ones costing two. Only two Lotus Tokens may be obtained from any event, regardless of how many times it is repeated. Add comestic items related to the sector that can be obtained from appropriate tokens(Gilly Suit type camo from Earth, Desert Camo from Phobos, etc).

 

3. Remove all instances of Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Killing Blow, and all other versions of direct damage, shields, or health increases. Replace with appropriate fusion cores and percentage scaling based off of warframe/weapon rank. Weapons gain 5% damage per rank, Warframes gain 5% health and shields per rank, the same applies to Sentinels. Combine all weapon mods that have the same function into a single mod that works for all categories (North Wind + Cryo Rounds + Deep Freeze + Chilling Grasp, for example). Remove Warframe Ability and Sentinel Precept mods as drops, and lock them at unranked, they too should become stronger with Warframe/Sentinel Rank.

 

4. Change Rescue missions to act more like Capture missions, you "capture" the rescue target and teleport them out. Instead of the challenge being the AI following you getting gunned down, the challenge is breaking into a fortified stronghold to rescue them in the first place. This makes them less of a miserable experience, and further differentiates them from the "boring" modes such as Spy, Sabotage, and Deception by offering it's own challenge(breaking through enemies that actually are well defended).

 

5. Add a new mission type, Scavenger. Scavenger missions play like a hybrid between Exterminate and Defense missions, requiring Tenno to clear out each room of enemies to progress, with the doors not unlocking until the room is clear. Once a room is clear, it will not spawn any more enemies regardless of how far the Tenno travel from it. The objective is to clear all rooms, which unlocks a door to a miniboss, defeating them then allows for extraction. Along the way there are several side rooms and hidden alcoves that possess upgrades, allowing Tenno to temporarily obtain new powers and weapons for the remainder of the mission. These extra powers and weapons go in separate slots from the main ones, with a key to toggle between them and your normal loadout. All existing Warframe powers and weapons can be found, also including additional powers and weapons that are experimental or discontinued. This is based off of the concept of Rogue-likes, and is intended to offer radically different experiences each time, as well as act as a testing ground for DE to experiment with ability and weapon ideas before they are finalized, or to give them a home if they don't make the cut for a new Warframe or weapon. The main idea is to get interesting combinations of abilities from several different Warframes, but in an environment specifically designed for it, you could be playing Mag and find Radial Javelin, Ripline, Electric Shield, and Antimatter Drop, for example.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Xrylene

[mrecentric]

I think the real issue is the frequency of good items. If you look at games like Diablo then sure you might find 1000 junk items in 10 minutes but you'll also find maybe 10 great ones. Playing a Warframe mission for an hour should get you something, ANYTHING that you would find useful.

Edited December 31, 2013 by mrecentric

[fatpig84]

Just get a token system be done with it. 

 

Or call it like Orokin scrap or something that blah blah can be replicated to a certain prime component.

Down side that you need 50 of those and each run nets you maybe 2 to 3 pieces if lucky.

Edited December 31, 2013 by fatpig84

[KvotheTheArcane1]

There is a lot of frustration about different aspects of RNG which all boil down to not getting what is sought - new player or not.

So, about the RNG and the recent detron crap...

[ZephyrPhantom]

DE responds to this thread, releases update 11.5.5.

First reaction : "Oh, wow, Detron drops from Harvester and they care about RNG! That's cool."

*learns Detron drops in PARTS from an RNG-based boss*

Edited December 31, 2013 by ZephyrPhantom

[SquirmyBurrito]

...but it's entirely based on RNG, it could never drop, or every mod every mob in that level possess could drop in one run.

 

And alerts =/= quests, because again, they're almost* 100% based on RNG, you can't expect an alert on mimas to be the same as the next one that's on mimas. Alerts are nothing like quests in BL2.

 

In short, yes, it is a complete clusterfuck of RNG, there is nothing you are guaranteed in WF other nano spores, alloy plates, and credits.

 

*supposedly the chance for repeat items alerts shouldn't happen, but obviously that's not true as we've seen times where one item pops up a few times in a row.

 

As an avid starcraft fan, I can assure you that starcraft (at least in multiplayer) does not use RNG. For example, if an unupgraded Marine takes say, 3 shots to kill something, it will ALWAYS take 3 shots to kill that thing while unupgraded, so you can develop actual skill by learning what engagements a force of XYZ can or cannot fight and win.

 

It isn't entirely based on RNG. Certain restrictions are placed on things, so certain prime-parts drop from certain void missions/tiers. Certain mods drop from certain mobs. So there is SOME order among the chaos of random. Alerts are quests, they're just random quests with random rewards. The kind of quests that get added to a more quest orientated game purely to help break up the monotony and to add a little unpredictability into the game. Without RNG everything would be scripted.

 

I'm PRETTY sure Starcraft utilizes RNG. RNG doesn't just control drops... Taiiat says it better than me:

 

other than randomizers, main mechanics used in Video Games are.... Linear Story progressions, where every weapon, box of ammo, health pickup, story trigger, and level change are hand placed. everyone will have 100% the exact same experience, because it is a scripted ladder. 

that works great for Singleplayer games that you never play again - but Warframe is a Multiplayer game where players are expected to go through the same content many times, without running out of things to do.

 

that doesn't make the randomizer perfect, but it's a very common mechanic used in hundreds of games.

however, Warframe is more open ended than many other games. even those big MMO's that people play for thousands of hours - have a linear progression story. you are awarded this and that at specific times. only when you get to the 'endgame' (which pretty much sums up to instanced dueling over and over, or just running through caves and fighting single enemies with 235982353259635253275237856HP to make them take a long time to kill so you feel like you got gameplay out of it).

 

due to the open ended nature, Warframe has more issues with the same mechanics than other games may have. but, that's because the game is flexible. we aren't being forced to all play the same thing at the same time, use the same equipment, level our whatever the same way(in theory, yes i know mods are kind've linear), Et Cetera. the downside to open ended nature, is issues in other places, rather than with player flexibility.

 

 

that actually sounds really good. i'm still hesitant for any 'token' system, because that's a rather dry Currency grind - which players will applaud for 5 minutes, then complain the Currency grind they've been pushing for is boring and Grindy. 

Go Figure.

 

trading is a bad system. in theory, being able to swap stuff with your friends sounds great. but when you add in several hundred thousand players that have everything you've ever wanted in their combined inventories, your estimated occupied time for a set of content will go from hundreds of hours to less than a dozen.

and then, every complaint changes to 'not enough content'. because you completed everything that the average player wants to complete in a set of content, in a single day, or less.

 

Borderlands guaranteed you some tiers of equipment, yes. 

but you still had to get stupid lucky in order for that reward to actually be something good.

all too often your super special quest reward would be an extravagant rarity, but would have some feature to it that made it unusable, or just simply crap.

such as... say, you get a Sub Machine Gun. it shoots bouncy laser bolts, does a ton of damage, accurate, all of the good stuff. but it's magazine size is like 10 and it's Optic is some absurd 50x zoom thing. the gun has been ruined.

 

you grinded just as much in Borderlands as you did in Warframe. just grinding for different things. grinding for gun stats, instead of grinding for gun parts and mods.

 

almost every game uses a Randomizer for integral features. it gives variance. it keeps it from being the same all the time.

 

the usage of it, ranges from randomized music and backgrounds, to randomized content.

sure, Chess isn't randomized. but that's because the game is identical every second. it never changes. it is a strategy game, and that's it. nothing else. at all.

 

what would you prefer? a Linear Story experience where content is not randomized, but story gated from you? that's kind've the other major way to pace out content.

so instead of grinding materials and mods, you'd be grinding quests. what changed? nothing really, you're still putting in time, and not getting what you want out. the vast majority of those quests will be time filler, collect 5 thingamajigs that will require you to kill 50 thingamajigs, get some XP and money or w/e. and then 5234523957 more of those quests.

 

a game with a lot of content intending for you to invest a lot of time, must have a way to gate you from the game, and pace things out accordingly. 

this does not make randomizers exceptionally reliable, but it's a better choice than having a billion quests to complete that i don't care about. 

 

hell, a lot of big online games like that, even gate you in the way of just pure time filler, with no content at all. 

what am i referring to? 'for your next quest, go to this place that's 15 minutes of walking away, talk to him, and come back and talk to me again'.

that's time grinding. you achieved nothing, and did nothing, but it took up time, so extended your time spent in the game.

 

 

every game 'gets in the way of your fun' in order to extend the life of content. this isn't something new. 

but players complain just as much if a game just gives you a bucket of stuff and says 'go crazy'. you'll get bored, due to 'not enough content'.

but it was the same amount of content! what happened? well, you got all of the content at once, which means you probably skipped some of it, because other parts grabbed your attention more, and you forgot about some of the other stuff.

 

Development time spent making something... but you ended up skipping it, or not spending that much time with it. not the fault of the player, just when you get inundated with content, you're very likely to get overwhelmed and skip a bunch of it.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

It isn't entirely based on RNG. Certain restrictions are placed on things, so certain prime-parts drop from certain void missions/tiers. Certain mods drop from certain mobs. So there is SOME order among the chaos of random. Alerts are quests, they're just random quests with random rewards. The kind of quests that get added to a more quest orientated game purely to help break up the monotony and to add a little unpredictability into the game. Without RNG everything would be scripted.

No, again, it's 100% RNG, there is nothing from stopping RNG from giving you 100 Xs in a row, or never putting up another (random) potato alert,.

 

Alerts still are not the equivalent of BL2 quests because they don't offer a reward to ensure you get SOMETHING you wanted/needed to continue on (after all, nothing is stopping all the alerts from being in pluto from now, which would screw over everyone who doesn't have pluto)

 

I'm not saying we don't need RNG (we do), we don't need it in the amount DE uses. There is nothing stopping a token system, or quest-like tutorials for new players to get certain mods (and so on).

 

I'm PRETTY sure Starcraft utilizes RNG. RNG doesn't just control drops... Taiiat says it better than me:

Gameplay wise, there is 0 RNG in starcraft. The closest it gets is maybe player spawns (depending on the map), but that's not the kind of RNG we're talking about, we're talking about real gameplay RNG, there is 0 difference if you spawn on the north or south in SC2 (or upper right/left or lower right/left)

Edited December 31, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1