Levelups Being Entirely Loot Dependent Is Terrible

[MJ12]

As the topic says. Let's take the example of a player. Call him Joe Q. Lootradar.

Joe Q. Lootradar is very unlucky. He only gets Loot Radar mods.

In the old system Joe Q. Lootradar would have a hard time on anything past Earth, but would be able to play the game.

In the new system Joe Q. Lootradar is totally screwed. He cannot progress past Mercury.

The new system for mods is a very good MOD replacement. It is an awful level progression replacement. The upgrades from levelups were overshadowed by mods only because you had to make choices between "getting mod slots" and "getting upgrades". There was no need to remove level-based advancement at all, since it could very easily have been simplified.

Joe Q. Lootradar is sad. But many people have poor luck with mods. In a way, we are all Joe Q. Lootradar.

And the best part is the fix would be so easy. Have Warframe levelups increase health, shields, and energy (by say, +5 per level up, with heavy frames getting +7.5 health/shields and casters getting +10 energy?) As well as power strength/range/duration (+5% per levelup?)

Reduce the relative effectiveness of upgraded powers slightly to compensate.

Yes, the game becomes easier for guys with 10 "Win the Game forever" mods, but it becomes fun again for the vast majority of the playerbase. We are all Joe Q. Lootradar. Please, don't drive us away from the game.

Edited March 18, 2013 by MJ12

[Barnox]

This is a good topic and you should feel good. Identifying a problem and suggesting a solution.

I agree that entirely random 'levelling' is a pretty bad idea. As you said, simply adding a +x% per level to shields/health/damage for gear and frames will allow players to get further into the game reliably, without having to rely on the RNG.

I feel this new system is pretty fantastic (barring these few snaffus), and look forward to these initial post-release bugs being ironed out.

[JHarlequin]

I like the idea as it does mean that you get something for leveling, and will get some progression. The only thought I had come up with is the opportunity to buy cheap very low fuse limit, or unfusable mods so that you can fill your basic slots with something while you look for mods that you will actually use.

[MJ12]

Also, the same thing with guns. Fortunately weapon upgrades were relatively low-key.

So 2% improvements in fire rate, reload speed, mag size, and damage per level? Noticeable at higher levels, but easily overshadowed by mods.

[ArcSynder]

Yep, this makes perfect sense.

It would have realized eased this launch transition as well if such a system had been in place.

[iotimoline]

I also support this, in general. I haven't cracked open release 7 and the drop rate, but having everything level solely in how many mods you can put on is a bit inconvenient until you're on your second or third and have a ready stockpile to plug in.

[Brasten]

I was surprised that some element of the old tree Passives didn't survive the switch in the system. I expected a level 30 frame to have a bit more then the base Heath/Shields/Energy.

Even if it was scaled along the lines of the old non-reactor trees maxed out at level 15. That would be a good place to start.

Take the old tree of level 15 and apply those increases as slow increases from levels 1 to 15. A level 15 frame and a level 15 gun in the old system was okay-ish at moving along without using old Mod system. Upper end areas were difficult, very difficult, but that'd be okay.

We already know those old level 15 passives were balanced fine. And without the crazy mod bonus stacking it'll be even more okay.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Brasten

[Stew360]

it is not totally loot dependent Since you have you all 4 abilitys to play with , also to fix this (( current problems )) maybe they should have introduce few card that you get rigth of the bat that are similar to what the skills tree does like Cheap mods card with (( melee damage , Crit damage ) and similar % than the one you get with the tree previously

those upgrade was far to be as good as mods ;)

it was passive lame upgrade so i think you dont see it the way you should

[Nokturnal]

Totally agree OP, Leveling up feels so empty now. I'm stuck being gimped even with lvl 30 frames/wpns.

I'm not using my Fusion cores to upgrade anything till they fix the cost to upgrade with fusion cores. (Costs like 50000% more to upgrade with Fusion Cores vs using the new Mods)

So basically it's like I'm starting off in this game completely fresh, but even with leveling a new frame up from 0 to 12 I have gotten almost no upgrades. So far, I've only gotten 1 shield mod and 1 health mod. (Something you got and didn't have slot in update 6 whenever you leveled up) which increases Loki's shields and health by... a whole 20 points rofl.

If you thought in update 6 it took a long time to make your frames able to tackle harder content, it's going to be insane for new players in Update 7. They'll just write this game off as a Korean MMO Grindfest and move on.

BTW They kind of broke the shield and health mods, instead of being any flat values they're all based on %s. So while you used to be able to mod any frame into a tanky frame, now it's going to be rough going for all the squishy frames. (Well almost all frames cause they all start with low shields/health and there's no Flat value increases in health or shield anymore)

Also this new system of cards being placed in the correct spots in order for it to require less mod energy isn't being utilized enough. My loki frame has 10 mod/card slots. Only 5 of them have mod energy reduction. 4 of them being ability slots lol. So yea a whole 1 slot that reduces energy requirements if I use it for the correct mod.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Nokturnal

[MJ12]

it is not totally loot dependent Since you have you all 4 abilitys to play with , also to fix this (( current problems )) maybe they should have introduce few card that you get rigth of the bat that are similar to what the skills tree does like Cheap mods card with (( melee damage , Crit damage ) and similar % than the one you get with the tree previously

those upgrade was far to be as good as mods ;)

it was passive lame upgrade so i think you dont see it the way you should

So you get all four abilities at the start. This doesn't change the statement that advancing beyond a level 1 warframe's power is entirely dependent on what loot luck you have, and a guy with bad loot luck will be completely boned for an indefinite period of time.

The "passive lame upgrade" was critical when I was starting out, had no good mods, and wanted to make actual progression. Having something even slightly resembling those would be a godsend for anyone whose luck gives them a mod drought.

As I said, the system is a fantastic way of replacing the mod system. It is a terrible way of replacing the character advancement system.

[Gestalt]

Some great ideas here. I like the parts about giving small stats upgrades per level, as well as providing some basic mods as a buyable option so you don't have to go naked farming Mercury til you fill up your slost.

[BobDillinger]

Good idea sir, Passive buffs per level makes sense for early game too because levels 1-15 were very close to a linear road anyway, and you'd always hit that end point the same as everyone else.

[SolarEnvoy]

I agree with the opening post. As things are, the new system just forces players to grind a lot to get anywhere, and to be entirely honest, I have neither time nor interest in spending huge amounts of time grinding early game areas over and over again just to be able to not get pulverised if I want to gather some crafting materials from later areas when I already have a level 30 warframe, so I will be taking a break from the game until that gets changed. Statis in game progress is poison to player interest.

It also raises the issue of health and shield mods becoming practically obligatory, which cuts into what you can actually do with the new system if you want to be able to, say, gather some Rubedo on Earth.

Along with lessening the effect of level-ups on the players, really. Levelling-up should be cool in some manner to encourage the players to keep going through game content, but when it does nothing by itself, any warframe improvements being strictly loot-related, it just kind of takes the wind out of the whole thing.

The new system is an interesting replacement for mods, but definitely not all advancement period.

(mod sale price changes did not help either, for that matter)

Edited March 19, 2013 by SolarEnvoy

[Kabeta]

I hate the new update, i spend hours upon hours grinding the heck out of all the available warframes to mod them up and to get their sheild to 500+ and now i log into today, all my mods are gone, even in my inventory they are gone, and all of my weapons and everything is back to scratch like i started back at mercury, i spent alot of money into this game and numerous hours upon hours grinding to get the best gear their was, and now its wasted. I hope this gets fixed soon or ill be looking towards another direction to another game to spend money on that doesnt get wiped away.

[neKroMancer]

I hate the new update, i spend hours upon hours grinding the heck out of all the available warframes to mod them up and to get their sheild to 500+ and now i log into today, all my mods are gone, even in my inventory they are gone, and all of my weapons and everything is back to scratch like i started back at mercury, i spent alot of money into this game and numerous hours upon hours grinding to get the best gear their was, and now its wasted. I hope this gets fixed soon or ill be looking towards another direction to another game to spend money on that doesnt get wiped away.

Not the point of the topic.

However, a bit passive increase in stat with leveling up is a good suggestion. Giving only mod point makes progression entirely depends on mod2.0.

[Vo1tair3]

I was pretty excited to jump in and play today, so excited in fact that I almost went and finally bought founder's before actually playing any of the new content.

I am glad I waited to buy though because while this update did some pretty sweet things I really feel like the mod system as it is now was a bit of a step backwards. I will echo the comments of those above: This system really hurts new players and the passive level ups should be reimplemented in someway. The idea of giving frames/wepaons fixed stat increases as they level up would be acceptable provided it could be balanced right. It will be interesting to see how things play out as the week goes on :)

[neKroMancer]

I was pretty excited to jump in and play today, so excited in fact that I almost went and finally bought founder's before actually playing any of the new content.

I am glad I waited to buy though because while this update did some pretty sweet things I really feel like the mod system as it is now was a bit of a step backwards. I will echo the comments of those above: This system really hurts new players and the passive level ups should be reimplemented in someway. The idea of giving frames/wepaons fixed stat increases as they level up would be acceptable provided it could be balanced right. It will be interesting to see how things play out as the week goes on :)

I think the system hurts the veteran more than the newbies. Newbies don't have lv30 frames which are now as good as lv1 frame without any mods equipped.

[SlyBoots]

yep, that's a good point right there, mj12. plus they sell cards now. a bit heavy handed though i'll reserve judgement until i've gotten a feel for the drop rates.

Edited March 19, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Vo1tair3]

I think the system hurts the veteran more than the newbies. Newbies don't have lv30 frames which are now as good as lv1 frame without any mods equipped.

Oh yes I agree. I should have mentioned that it did not feel good to burn two revivies doing a mission with level 15 enemies (I was using Loki + Braton Vandal + Kraken + Zorens all level 30)

[AndyChanglee]

Oh yes I agree. I should have mentioned that it did not feel good to burn two revivies doing a mission with level 15 enemies (I was using Loki + Braton Vandal + Kraken + Zorens all level 30)

I guess the new thing is finding mods and upgrading them if you couldn't get that mission done :P I do like the suggestion to subtly increase strength with level thing instead of just increasing mod capacity. That would make levling have a point except for a pure loot based game.

[Nokturnal]

I hate the new update, i spend hours upon hours grinding the heck out of all the available warframes to mod them up and to get their sheild to 500+ and now i log into today, all my mods are gone, even in my inventory they are gone, and all of my weapons and everything is back to scratch like i started back at mercury, i spent alot of money into this game and numerous hours upon hours grinding to get the best gear their was, and now its wasted. I hope this gets fixed soon or ill be looking towards another direction to another game to spend money on that doesnt get wiped away.

The most obnoxious part?

The new Mods are the same thing we already had, except now we have to farm all of our passive upgrades again too.

All the new system REALLY did was not allow us to stack mods and reduced how many mods we can use. Something that could've been done just by reworking the trees, not allowing mods to stack and nerfing some mods.

NOT replacing the old mods, with "new" mods even though they're the EXACT SAME THING we already had and they're ALSO making it cost more to use Fusion Cores instead of the new mods to upgrade them. Pretty sure the mod droprate is EXACTLY THE SAME, meaning all the time we spent farming mods previously is apparently not good enough for the new mod system.

It seems like they went "Hey people are maxed out and bored, let's reset everything they have and make em have to farm it all up again... except this time make it take WAY longer. Instead of actually adding any content"

---

Edited March 19, 2013 by Nokturnal

[Narog-1]

this guy nail it right there +1

Edited March 19, 2013 by Narog-1

[AndyChanglee]

Well now you can upgrade your mods to greater levels.

[Alastis]

I like the mod2.0 system. Once you get the idea it becomes apparent that it is way more robust than the previous iteration. But as the OP said shields and health are far too important to leave to chance as it will seriously hinder your progress.

I did like 5 runs on tolstoj and what i have to show for it is a 10% increase in armor.Someone else could have it way worse as it is a well known fact that the gods of RNG can be pretty cruel.

I really dig the suggestion as it not only allows you to progress it also gives a pretty tangible sense of your character's advancement.

[Caine]

I agree with Nokturnal that the 2.0 mods aren't special or different in anyway. They just got buffed in that they can level up now. I want some fancy mods that make me feel special.