A Beginners Guide To The New Mod System In Update 7

[Brasten]

It would be easier to bug hunt if they posted the pricing formulas. I still don't think its "working as intended", and I'm not conviced "as intened" is very good either. The idea seems good, but the execution is feeling really, really bad.

Does this look right to you for how a rare core should be interacting with a Rank 0 Weapon Mod?

*edit* or these two?

Edited March 21, 2013 by Brasten

[Suprizebuttseks]

not sure where the inconsistency is.

looking at your first and second frame show the effect of RARE 10 on (from your description) a Rank 0 Mod ---> both cards are

Rank 0, COMMON 2

the third frame shows the effect of a RARE 10 on a Rank 0 Mod ---> card #3 i think is a Rank 0, RARE

at what rarity did the Mods start at?

it looks like (from the images) that your third Mod started at a higher rarity than the other two prior to clicking on the RARE 10 to preview the effects.

i'm guessing that Fusion Cores yield different results according to the rarity of the Mod -before- applying a fusion [?]

another interesting thing is price is consistent regardless.

it looks like the Cred cost is based on the Rank and Rarity of the Fusion Core.

with that, i wonder if using two RARE 10's would cost 17600 creds? i'll go try it...

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Brasten]

The 3rd on was a Rare, Elemental weapon damages are Rare types. All started a Rank 0 for their rarity. I have not seen a Card's rarity change through Fusion. Rarity doesn't change.

The first two started at Rank 0 and were moved up to Rank 2 by the Fusion Core. Ditto for the 3rd, which you can see didn't even make to Rank 1. Both Mods have an "energy" (right side) starting value of 4.

I'm sad to say I had already upped my Ammo Drum to Rank 1 so I can't confirm your jump from Rank 0 to Rank 5 with it... did that actually happen for you? If I find another Rank 0 Ammo Drum I'll double check.

Fast Hands (a common rifle mod) does the same thing:

*edit*

To date I have the most cost Credit effective fusions with a mix of low Rank Uncommon and Common mods (mostly Uncommon). Rare mods seem to do strange things. I've also had values on combinations go backwards with seemingly random Rarity/Rank mixes, typically when I mix in Rares with Commons.

Its not a logical system. Which is bad.

*edit 2* More B.S. of the Fusion System. 7, Common 5 Cores vs 1, Rare 10 Core.

I stand by my firm sense that the Fusion system is busted. And until the Devs "show us the math", I will belive that is quite definitely not working as intended. You cannot balance the Credit economy around a busted system. Worse, you shouldn't be balancing your PAY economy around it either. DE, "show us the math"!

Edited March 21, 2013 by Brasten

[Suprizebuttseks]

Brasten you are genius.

i went in and took a closer look at the detail you pointed out and found a method to the madness.

The RARITY of the Mod will affect the final results of a Fusion with a Fusion Core.

The RARITY of the Fusion Core will also have an affect on the final results of a Fusion with a Fusion Core.

Ok, here we have an Ice Wave Mod.

Rank - 0

Drain - 4

Rarity - RARE

The desired Fusion Core is a RARE 10 - TOP RANKED

The result of fusing this is consistent to Brasten's post

Rank - 0

Drain - 4

Rarity - RARE

+ 95% (it looks like) filled up in the bar

+cost = 8,800

**Keeping in mind that the Fusion Core has a weaker effect on a WARFRAME MOD vs a WEAPON MOD, here are the results:

Now for effect of Fusion Cores to LOWER RARITY Mods -

The results here are also consistent to Brasten first two, LOWER RARITY Mods (Pressure Point, and Piercing Hit) with similar spec:

Rank - 0

Drain - 2

Rarity - COMMON

In both cases, the RARE 10 Fusion Core had the same effect on both, consistent to Brasten's results:

Rank - 2

Drain -4

Rarity - COMMON 2

+75% filled up in the bar

+cost = 8,800

The cost to Fuse is based on the Rarity /Level/ Rank of the Fusion Core

Each Fusion Core has a FIXED cost according to these stats

A RARE 6 Fusion Core costs 5,600 Creds per use.

Stacking another RARE 6 will cost another 5,600 and another 5,600 and....

make a long story short, 5,600>11,200>16,800

and of course, it is cheaper at a Lower RARITY:

notice the price consistency there also.

it cost 2,800 to use one UNCOMMON 6>5,600>8,400

i guess the next thing to do is make a table of values by Credit cost.

the more hardcore might even lay out the gain from each Fusion Core or, to make things go deeper,

the value of all that has been mentioned but throwing the whole "Duplicate mod Fusion" mechanic....

there's no doubt this system is far more customizable.

this even works out for players who can only play with limited Warframes.

i can see this customizing method giving a WARFRAME like Trinity (who should be healing) some Tank-ish characteristics

or DPS-ish capability.

If you understand this system enough, the combos are endless.

I even noticed, for those who have multiple FRAMES, that these MODS are not bound in any way to your one weapon or Warframe.

They can be temporarily removed and used between weapons and Warframes.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Suprizebuttseks]

I stand by my firm sense that the Fusion system is busted. And until the Devs "show us the math", I will belive that is quite definitely not working as intended. You cannot balance the Credit economy around a busted system. Worse, you shouldn't be balancing your PAY economy around it either. DE, "show us the math"!

i'm not sure about this but i think they made it a bit Credit draining so that lower level Warframes and Weapons will progress as slowly as they should.

even if a Wallet Warrior were to buy all the RARE MODS in the shop, they would still have to farm the creds to work their way up.

this is a nice P2W deterrent - it also allows the lower level player to progress slow enough to get a feel for each mission and perhaps enjoy all the stuff that the devs put out?

can't really say but it seems to govern the speed at which we burn through the game.

for myself, i felt the prior update was far too easy and it was hard to see the longevity of the game.

too easy to get to 30 and grind away.

to keep from getting bored, i bought a few Frames and Weapons just to have something different to do...

in the end, i can't force you to like the new tree

i'm just pointing out what i'm seeing in how it is used at the moment.

i'm working on graphic i'll post later comparing the two and see what the folks think =)

thanks again for pointing out this detail. i look into that last one you posted with the various Fusion Core Rarities. i hope i find some consistency in there =P

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Brasten]

It's fun system, but bugged. Which is hurting it. It's also IMO needless complicated on the calculation of the Fusion costs. Examples:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/16669-fusion-cores-lowering-mod-level-progress/

DE needs to show their work with stuff like this. Put the numbers in the displays. Show us testers what's going on if the system is that complex. If its not going to be KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid (normally I use Silly, but for this its just Stupid), then they need to the 1000+ eyes of the testing masses double checking where the calculations are going wrong or incorrectly implemented.

[Suprizebuttseks]

It's fun system, but bugged. Which is hurting it. It's also IMO needless complicated on the calculation of the Fusion costs. Examples:

https://forums.warfr...level-progress/

DE needs to show their work with stuff like this. Put the numbers in the displays. Show us testers what's going on if the system is that complex. If its not going to be KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid (normally I use Silly, but for this its just Stupid), then they need to the 1000+ eyes of the testing masses double checking where the calculations are going wrong or incorrectly implemented.

ah yes! this problem...

i am looking into that one now.

that's the mystery one i keep seeing complaints about in the Forums.

at the moment, i agree with the the first response,

something about the Rarities not getting along.

from the way it looks, this might also be a part of how DE is keeping the pace of the game under control.

i have yet to find info to prove this or i might end up tweeking different combos and seeing their results all night and not end up playing hahahahaha

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Brasten]

I gave up on doing what your doing. I started trying to work out the system, then as soon as I ran into decreasing and anomalously increasing fusion cores I called it quits. There's no point in trying to back engineer a busted system.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Brasten

[Suprizebuttseks]

I gave up on doing what your doing. I started trying to work out the system, then as soon as I ran into decreasing and anomalously increasing fusion cores I called it quits. There's no point in trying to back engineer a busted system.

i hear you.

definitely frustrating with lack of info from devs...

for myself, i can't pass final judgement on the system yet until I can get a better understanding of it.

i guess i'll sit tight until more info comes out - for now, farm time XD

[Notso]

The fusion system is bugged still, then. I'd hoped they'd fixed it with that patch yesterday, but apparently not.

I'll hold off finalising my video until they actually fiz the damn system lol.

The thing is, it's only fusion cores which come from our 1.0 mods which cause the problem. 2.0 fusion cores and 2.0 mods don't encounter any of this random bugginess.

[Suprizebuttseks]

I stand by my firm sense that the Fusion system is busted. And until the Devs "show us the math", I will belive that is quite definitely not working as intended. You cannot balance the Credit economy around a busted system. Worse, you shouldn't be balancing your PAY economy around it either. DE, "show us the math"!

Brasten, you win =)

You are absolutely correct.

It's not a math problem, it's a BUG

The fusion system is bugged still, then. I'd hoped they'd fixed it with that patch yesterday, but apparently not.

I'll hold off finalising my video until they actually fiz the damn system lol.

The thing is, it's only fusion cores which come from our 1.0 mods which cause the problem. 2.0 fusion cores and 2.0 mods don't encounter any of this random bugginess.

this would be a good idea to do so.

along with the other evidence i have seen in other posts, i have one that is also very convincing.

it's actually more than convincing...IT'S BUGGED:

Before going into the bug, right away you can see the RARITY label of the MOD has vanished!

when replaced in the inventory, you can see the rarity again as a thumbnail when you mouse over it.

Sometimes the label will show up again and sometimes - what you see in the image.

Now I'm testing this out while a RARE 10 is selected in the background

keeping in mind that the RARE 10 is selected in the background, I select an UNCOMMON 5 Fusion Core.

this yields expected results:

i unselect this config and re-select another UNCOMMON 5 Fusion Core right next to the one I had just deselected.

(RARE 10 is still selected in the background)

this produced a whacky result:

doesn't take a math genius to figure out there is no math =P

you guys were right.

guess the right thing to do would be for Devs to fix the bug and reset us all once more (credit and Mod wise) to have a second go at the Mod system.this time with a fixed, working Fusion system...

or else, just wait for a fix and farm away!

i actually don't mind the mods i have going at the moment. i was able to achieve the rank and level they are at currently without running into this problem - i guess that's why i did not notice before.

it doesn't seem to happen if you go in consecutive order but after running into this bug, i'm not even sure if it did happen and i just did not catch it.

from my current stats and mod set up, i guess i could pick up from here and farm my "burned" credits.

i'm putting all my Fusing to a halt until i see some Patches and Fixes.

thanks for making me take a second look.

EDIT: -yikes- i just realized that with this BUGGED MOD SYSTEM, i better go back and make sure that I did not burn or fuse away any of the cards i bought out of curiousity from the Market...

i'm guessing if i did, i may or may not have received the proper upgrade points for Fusion of these Market bought cards.

I have screen shot of purchase - was going to use it for another part of the fusion guide =/

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Notso]

All 2.0 mods fuse as expected, it just seems to be fusion cores which are bugged

[Windbow]

Wow! That's a lot of good work, you guys. Well, I was hoping for some definitive info but I guess since the fusion core fusing is bugged - I'll just wait for a fix. Nice catch, though. I hope DEdevs have read this thread up to here. :)

Edited March 21, 2013 by Windbow

[IronSkin]

I have a question.

When you run out of the mods you picked up pre-update 7 (now fusion cores) do you just run out of upgrading ability?

Or is it possible to obtain new fusion cores?

Because if someone were to theoretically have gotten in the habit of selling mods they didn't need in order to keep a tidy inventory before update seven came, wouldn't they be at a great disadvantage if they found themselves with only a handful of fusion cores now that update 7 has come (that is, if obtaining new fusion cores isn't possible)?

It just strikes me as a very...unsympathetic concept.

[Notso]

I have a question.

When you run out of the mods you picked up pre-update 7 (now fusion cores) do you just run out of upgrading ability?

Or is it possible to obtain new fusion cores?

Because if someone were to theoretically have gotten in the habit of selling mods they didn't need in order to keep a tidy inventory before update seven came, wouldn't they be at a great disadvantage if they found themselves with only a handful of fusion cores now that update 7 has come (that is, if obtaining new fusion cores isn't possible)?

It just strikes me as a very...unsympathetic concept.

Two things.

1/ Fusion cores drop from mobs just like regular mods do in the new build.

2/ Using mods is actually more cost-efficient than using fusion cores, so I wouldn't get too hung up over how many fusion cores you have

[Brasten]

Actually the person who was selling off Mods in 6 and lower is likely in better shape because they have more credits to throw at the new system. I honestly thought that was going to be the final solution before fusion cores, just mass Credit everyone's old Mods and then give us store option to buy new mods for credits. The close that option in U8 after everyone had pounded the crap out of the new system and discovered its flaws, with U8 being the 'final' pass for Mods2.0.

At this point DE likely needs to do another culling (find and replace) of the Fusion Cores, something went wrong in the conversion or code handling them is needlessly complex (or both). As I keep saying I still don't trust the math across the whole system 2.0 Polarited Mods and all. I'd be much happier seeing actual numbers then a single glowing bar of ambiguous nature (at least during beta testing). It's like trying to find a leak in a tire without a sense of touch and a lot of ambient noise. We can kinda hear the leak, but can't really tell where it is or how big the puncture is.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Brasten

[Notso]

At this point DE likely needs to do another culling (find and replace) of the Fusion Cores, something went wrong in the conversion or code handling them is needlessly complex (or both). As I keep saying I still don't trust the math across the whole system 2.0 Polarited Mods and all. I'd be much happier seeing actual numbers then a single glowing bar of ambiguous nature (at least during beta testing). It's like trying to find a leak in a tire without a sense of touch and a lot of ambient noise. We can kinda hear the leak, but can't really tell where it is or how big the puncture is.

DE have actually said they are working on the credit problem. I just wish they'd had the foresight to fix it before releasing U7.

[Brasten]

It's not the credit problem I'm directly worried about. Yes it is a problem, but its the math of the Fusion process itself I don't trust. It is demonstrably bugged for Fusion Cores, which makes me suspect the whole deal.

Here are my initial thoughs when I was starting to work through the math shortly after release, my focus wasn't on credits. Keep in mind this early wrangling but I hit few things that made me just stop. An oddity with how much a Rare Fusion Core or Non-matching Card returned vs a Matching one, and being able to cause some fusion cores to bug and give MORE value then they should. Again very early thoughts, but it may be of help....

My apologizes to DE but your new Mod 2.0 system has been bugging the crap out of me. There are elements of it that just don't seem to be working or logical. In order to figure out why I have this feeling of “1 + 1 = 3” I started plugging away at your rating system and how it interacts with Rarity, Polarity, Rank, and Rating. Keep in mind my values are based on very low level mods. This a first brush and also does not take into account any bugs that may be in the system. Additional input and testing would be appreciated (unless DE just wants to save us time and posts the formulation :p ).

First a bit on terms.

Rarity has three values: Common, Uncommon, Rare

Polarity is the little symbol in the upper left. I will call them:

Horizontal line: – (double dash)

Vertical line: |-

Conner circle thing: (>

C: v/

Frame powers: ==

Rank is the “level” of the Mod.

Rating is a “behind” the scenes value used to determine Fusion increases and Cost of the Fusion.

Before we get into the math, there is a final thing to understand with Fusion. When you fuse you can use a Duplicate (exact same) mod, a Matching Polarity mod, or an Unrelated mod. Duplicate, Matching, Unrelated, these are important.

Below is a table showing the relationship between Rank and Rating amounts. This is the what I will call the Base for using Duplicate mods. The Upgrade Amount is how much Rating you must put into a mod to get it to rank (level) up. The value under that is how much rating a mod of a certain rank will give you if using it for fusion.

Rank: ____________ 0 _ 1 _ 2 _ 3 _ 4

Upgrade Amount: ___ - _ 1 _ 2 _ 4 _ 8

Rating given in Fusion: 1 _ 2 _ 4 _ 8 _ 16

Rank: _____________ 5 _ 6 __ 7 ____ 8 ____9 ____ 10

Upgrade Amount: ___ 16 _ 32 _ 64 ___128__ 256__ 512

Rating given in Fusion: 32 _ 64 _ 128 _ 256__ 512 _ 1024(assumed)

A Common 0 Mod, which is fused with a Duplicate Common 0 mod will level up to Rank 1. The one mod will give you 1 Rating, which is enough to meet the Rank up requirement.

=====

Math Time

First lets look at Duplicate, Matching, and Unrelated. These carry multiples to on much Rating you get out of a mod.

Duplicate: x1

Matching: x 0.5

Unrelated: x 0.25

Yes, if you don't use a duplicate mod you get less Rating out of a Mod. Fusion Cores are Unrelated to everything. It takes 4 Common 0 Fusion Cores to level up a Rank 0 Mod (of any rarity or polarity).

(1 * 0.25) + (1 * 0.25) + (1 * 0.25) + (1 * 0.25) = 1 Rating. Simple.

It only takes two Matching Polarity. Take those Check-mark v/ mods. If your mod is a v/ and use two other matching (but not duplicate) v/ mods of the same rank, 0 in this case, you level up.

(1 * 0.5) + (1 * 0.5) = 1. Again simple :) , brain okay.

Duplicates are basically 1 to 1, super easy. However, we also have to deal with Rarity. This is where things become a problem. Rarity use a multiplier as well, it actually uses 2 different multipliers. More on that in a moment. Here are the Rating multipliers...

Common: x1

Uncommon: x2

Rare: x3, x4 if Matching

Now, these multipliers do not apply to Duplicates. Otherwise when you used a Rare Duplicate on itself it would always get x3 its full value. At low Ranks this would insta-level a Rare 0 to Rare 2. Keep that in mind.

So math...

A Rare 0 Matching should give 1.5 = ( 1 * 0.5 * 3 ), but it does not. When you actually try it the result is really x4, 2 = ( 1 * 0.5 * 4), which Means Rank 1 and fills the bar halfway.

On a Rare Unrelated you get hit with both the lower x3 and the x0.25. A Rare 0 mod will only take another Rank 0 mod up 3/4 of its bar. 0.75 = ( 1 * 0.25 * 3).

This brings us to the second multiplier for Rarity, which is to Cost.

Common: x1

Uncommon: x2

Rare: x4

Notice something a bit off there? The base cost to fuse a mod is 200 credits, starting at Rank. So you can see very quickly how there is a disconnect between the value of Rare modes depending on how you are using them in a Fusion. Sadly this means Rare Fusion Cores are going to be the least cost effective mods to fuse.

Try using Unrelated 2.0 Mods in the Fusion, they may show some of the odd behavior of Fusion Cores.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Brasten

[reggs12]

Ugh so glad I found this. Would it be too much to ask DE to put something like this together? Especially considering how cryptic this new mod system is if you are coming from the old one.

[Windbow]

Ugh so glad I found this. Would it be too much to ask DE to put something like this together? Especially considering how cryptic this new mod system is if you are coming from the old one.

Don't fret - DEdevs have enough on their plate. The Warframe dev team seems quite small, actually. Just appreciate the community members who've contributed information threads like this one.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Windbow

[Suprizebuttseks]

At this point DE likely needs to do another culling (find and replace) of the Fusion Cores, something went wrong in the conversion or code handling them is needlessly complex (or both). As I keep saying I still don't trust the math across the whole system 2.0 Polarited Mods and all. I'd be much happier seeing actual numbers then a single glowing bar of ambiguous nature (at least during beta testing). It's like trying to find a leak in a tire without a sense of touch and a lot of ambient noise. We can kinda hear the leak, but can't really tell where it is or how big the puncture is.

+1 to this

especially the part about the tire.

lost some game time trying to find the bug because everything was working out fine.

until your post prompted me to look deeper at what other players are having problems with.

found it! but went through that whole "tire" deal you mentioned looking for it =P

hope they fix this soon.

i, for one, do not mind if they just simply fix it and i can move on from here.

any potential loss wouldn't really be big deal to me since I have accepted the Beta Agreement (even before they had to empahsize it with yesterday's patch)

but i feel the pain of other players who have been on the game longer and farmed like hell only to get nerfed by a system that should have made them stronger....

...but it's BUGGED =P

Edited March 21, 2013 by Suprizebuttseks

[Windbow]

One that note, while I didn't have a super-duper upgraded warframe with all the trimmings, I did have 2 pretty decent level30s. Today, I had used up all revives on 2 warframes. Strangely, I'm loving the new difficulty. It's like a wipe without starting from level 0 warframes. With the new environments and mods I'm just having fun with it. Almost like playing a new game. Or maybe I'm jost odd. :P

[Notso]

I love it [the new difficulty]. Although it is now a bit ridiculous that my level 15 Saryn has 600 health! Yet I still manage to die! xD

[RextintorZ]

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but when you use a duplicate on the same card as the duplicate, it gets a huge boost.

From what I've seen after testing this on five cards and duplicates, the card that is getting the boost gets one level (if the main card has not been leveled up yet). And this is a really good way to up the first levels without spending too many cores/cards.

Edited March 22, 2013 by RextintorZ

[Brasten]

Yes, that's inteneded in the design. Actually the DE_Steve pointed it out in the news post about the 2.0 Mods.

I need to go look but I think the 1:1 matching starts top drop off after a few ranks. Again I need to confirm but it seemed that around rank 2, if you were using duplicates both of that rank, you didn't get the instant rank boost. There is lots of little odd behavior in the system like that. Stuff that just doesn't seem right when you start digging at it.