January 3Rd: Community Hot Topics!

[[DE]Megan]

RNG

Issues with RNG in relation to several game mechanics in Warframe have created a lot of valid discussion on what things should be reviewed. With the introduction of the Harvester came excitement followed by anger about releasing the Detron in a way that was not aligned with the recognition of frustration of reliance on RNG.  The Detron in three parts on top of a spawn system that is not 100% understood sparked a lot of discussion. Most players have yet to discover how to spawn the Harvester, let alone obtain the Detron. In the past, we have given players an easier-way to obtain certain weapons. Some weapons in the market are XP locked, indicating a tiering system. Further, with implementations like the Stalker and the Harvester the goal is to clearly indicate some of the rarest items in the game. Making items more difficult to obtain will make them more meaningful to acquire. 

 

However, with all that being said, RNG is an important issue.  Veteran players might have every mod they need to create the builds they want, while new players have a difficult time getting what they want because of RNG. New player experience in relation to RNG is an issue that we are looking at. For a lot of players that have everything in the game, the Detron is the only “new” thing to go after, but many veteran players are frustrated with the RNG tied to obtaining this.

 

Rebecca has posted further about RNG here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/156019-de-its-time-to-stop-relying-on-rng-instead-of-game-design/page-6#entry1841362

 

The Harvester/Detron

We have heard many suggestions about how we should change the way the Detron is obtained. We know that the three separate Detron blueprints is a reason many players are upset.  Here are some solutions that were suggested by players:

·         Condense the Detron to 1 Blueprint, like the Stalker’s gear.  

·         Put Detron in Clan Research

·         Increase Harvester spawn rates and better Detron drop rate consistency.

·         Put the Barrel/Receiver as possible rewards for Battle Pay

 

Suggestions are being discussed based off of player feedback on this issue.

 

Cicero Crisis Event

First, a huge "thank you" to everyone for not only participating but also helping us improve the event. Several Hot Fixes were deployed, with the most recent being the Solo/Clan scoring structure. Every event seems to come with its share of issues, but with your help we can reduce the issues and continue improving. Players have told us that the top Ghost Clan score is incorrect, we are aware and we know why!

 

Solo capability, new player capability, RNG, scoring, and more were discussed from Player Feedback regarding the event. Each event gives us another stepping stone towards creating more dynamic and fun opportunities.

 

Future Codex Improvements

Feedback on the Codex has brought up some concerns that it does not provide enough information regarding drops/loot. Ideas and plans have surfaced on the Dev desk about additions to the Codex in order to provide more information on rewards. Suggestions on how to improve the Codex are greatly appreciated.

 

Orokin Derelict Survival rewards

The Orokin Derelict Survival rewards are being reviewed. It is an issue that fighting enemies that start at level 25 (some of the most difficult base mission level) only to receive 1500 credit caches/Common Cores as rewards. With the community’s help we have a lot of data and suggestions of what is suitable, and we are actively seeking some changes here. Fixes could come as early as today.

[EganMC]

I came here hoping for some sort of requirement to meet the ol' Harvester.

Now I'm convinced it's merely RNG.

Well, I hope it is.

Else I've been way too cautious.

Edited January 3, 2014 by EganMC

[Kracken]

The Harvester/Detron

We have heard many suggestions about how we should change the way the Detron is obtained. We know that the three separate Detron blueprints is a reason many players are upset.  Here are some solutions that were suggested by players:

·         Condense the Detron to 1 Blueprint, like the Stalker’s gear.  

·         Put Detron in Clan Research

·         Increase Harvester spawn rates and better Detron drop rate consistency.

·         Put the Barrel/Receiver as possible rewards for Battle Pay

 

Suggestions are being discussed based off of player feedback on this issue.

 

now i think of it - some weapons can be implemented that way too you know - mainly as battle pay (parts of the weapon)

Edited January 3, 2014 by Cracken

[se05239]

Condense the Detron to 1 Blueprint, like the Stalker’s gear.  

Yes please.

 

The Orokin Derelict Survival droptables are pure garbage. Its a big freaking punch to the face when you are playing at 30+ minutes and keep getting slapped in the face by 1k credit rewards and common cores.

I hope you end up fixing it real fast, saying "will soon fix" means nothing without action!

Edited January 3, 2014 by se05239

[CeePee]

I like the sound of condensing the Detron to a blueprint and craftable with resources.

Can't wait for the ODS reward fixes either.

[dreampuke]

Yay hot topics :D

 

Glad to get a response about RNG and the Harvester.

Edited January 3, 2014 by dreampuke

[CY13ERPUNK]

1 - when are we getting an upgraded/functional chat system? (ie custom tabs. friendslist chat, resizable window that stays open, squad chat the doesnt insta-close, etc) [EDIT: recently this has been improved, much thanks, CONTINUE TO IMPROVE, still needs more work, ie we have tabs now, that is great, but they are difficult to manage still]

2 - will mastery rank ever give slots? (ie choice of 1 weapon/frame/sentinel slot per rank)

im currently rank 14, and yes it would have saved me some plat, but i still bought the founder's pack becuz 300+ hrs ingame i felt it was more than worth the investment

3 - infested need some luv, more new/different units and hopefully the next event is infested focused (infested trailer for next cinematic pls) [EDIT: additionally WHY REMOVE THEM FROM ERIS TO ADD NOTHING BACK IN ITS PLACE?!?! currently ingame there is no boss for the Eris system, and AFAIK since it's corpus and the next new boss makeover is Hek, there is no plans soon for the Eris system to have a boss? WHY? this makes no sense]

4 - new stealth mechanics inbound anytime soon?

5 - reactions to these threads? all about movement/parkour/etc (IE Overgrowth outshining WF's parkour)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119650-parkour-has-been-ignored-for-too-long-its-the-key-element-in-making-warframe-gameplay-unique-and-fresh/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/116872-the-grand-thread-for-animation-improvements-and-fixes-with-gifs/

new adds:

6 - related to #5, there is much community distaste for the "autoroll" feature in parkour, it is quite cumbersome at times, any plans to address this?

7 - i know melee is getting the linked charge attacks and the new animations, but what about the clipping issues and phasing INTO and through the target you are swinging at? it makes regular melee attack spamming even worse in comparison to charge attacks, melee collision is IMHO one of the biggest turnoffs to melee, its very clunky

8 - Psychen's thread on level design, thoughts? comments? anything liked? disliked? plan to implement? (hint hint)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/129048-level-design-is-running-all-that-we-do/

9 - how about the option of a friendly fire mode? maybe nightmare only, regardless, completely optional and voluntary, but just to have the option nonetheless? would allow some cells/clans to make some super kickass videos of effective teamwork, and who knows what else

10 - any/all of Rasputin29's works: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/142876-a-katana-weapon-please/

11 - are we ever going to get the integrated dojo/frontend ui menu? dojo's are so hidden currently ingame that i rarely ever go into my clan's dojo unless i wanted a bp to craft something (which hasn't happened in awhile, sidenote: when are we getting more clantech?)

12 - why are enemy types so seemingly randomly distributed throughout the system, before the infestation was removed you had to go to a specific node to find lobber crawlers for instance, why? enemy factions should have more of every different type of unit in each planetary system, or make it clear why/where each unit can be found (why are corpus snipers only in europa?) [arid grineer on phobos makes sense, most other distributions do not] (EDIT: recently cicero made finding reg eviscerators and seekers easier, more of this kind of distribution will help things)

Edited January 3, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK

[Wallace24]

I think just boosting the harvester's spawn rate and the drop rates of detron blueprints is a good fix, still has some RNG, but not as bad. also knowing how to spawn it would be great. I've heard you can get multiple BP's from one fight, so that's kinda cool, but I haven't encountered it. I'd really rather not have to check all the battlepay rewards when those come up, and if they were offered as battlepay, the invasion/infestation wouldn't last long. well, if you change how we obtain it, DE, my only request is that you tell us how to get it. to quote the Joker: "Nobody panics when things go 'according to plan,' even if the plan is horrifying." we'd suffer through the RNG if we knew the steps to make the harvester spawn, I guarantee

 

ODS rewards could use an update, thanks! survival rewards in general are pretty good, but man, getting those 1500 credit caches after the 30 minute mark is just bothersome. at least common FC's are useful. personally, I wouldn't mind if you replaced all the credit caches with extra fusion cores

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

the thing is that you avoid RNG by giving the detron in harvester's drop, but the harvester appears by RNG again!

 

is like a sick loop where DE cant get out, maybe an event for detron BP (like was with frost prime?) dont know, no more RNG for gawds sake XD.

 

and please, fix the whips animations, they are...strange, a whip does not move like that....

Edited January 3, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[Histori]

RNG is a issue from 4ever and i think it will stay like that.

Bring us Tokens .

Edited January 3, 2014 by Histori

[KvotheTheArcane1]

RNG

Issues with RNG in relation to several game mechanics in Warframe have created a lot of valid discussion on what things should be reviewed. With the introduction of the Harvester came excitement followed by anger about releasing the Detron in a way that was not aligned with the recognition of frustration of reliance on RNG.  The Detron in three parts on top of a spawn system that is not 100% understood sparked a lot of discussion. Most players have yet to discover how to spawn the Harvester, let alone obtain the Detron. In the past, we have given players an easier-way to obtain certain weapons. Some weapons in the market are XP locked, indicating a tiering system. Further, with implementations like the Stalker and the Harvester the goal is to clearly indicate some of the rarest items in the game. Making items more difficult to obtain will make them more meaningful to acquire. 

 

However, with all that being said, RNG is an important issue.  Veteran players might have every mod they need to create the builds they want, while new players have a difficult time getting what they want because of RNG. New player experience in relation to RNG is an issue that we are looking at. For a lot of players that have everything in the game, the Detron is the only “new” thing to go after, but many veteran players are frustrated with the RNG tied to obtaining this.

 

It's fine to have rare items, it's fine to have a goal to work towards, BUT a major part of having that goal is being able to work towards said goal. For example, if I wanted the highest tier rewards in the G. Del., all I had to do is run a few missions at a time, and plan out how many I would run per node. And it was nice, maybe boring, (but farming is pretty much always boring), but nice because I knew and planned out how I was gonna do those 100 runs.

 

With something like the stalker, it's fine to have it drop items (which become rare because the stalker itself is rare), but what's right with the stalker vs the harvester's drops (as you have identified) is that the stalker drops the BPs, then you can make the weapon with normal/common mats. It's two instances of RNG for a stalker weapon (stalker appearing, then dropping the right BP), while the harvester requires not two, but five lucky rolls of RNG for one weapon (Appearing three times, then dropping all three parts you need). That is assuming both the stalker and harvester always drop a BP (which the harvester does not, so really it's eight RNG rolls for the detron, while the stalker (if he doesn't always drop a BP) is only three. (note, it's five and eight isntead of six and nine because if you don't have any parts, then clearly any part dropped is useful)

 

You can argue that "But the stalker has three drops too", and yes, if you want all the drops from both the stalker and harvester, then they're same. However each drop from the stalker works on its own and doesn't require the other drops to be used (and the stalker drops three weapons vs the harvester's one)

 

In conclusion: It's fine to have rare items, it's fine to have a goal to work towards, but putting up RNG wall after RNG is the wrong way to do it. Having some RNG in drops is fine, but there needs to be something that puts a limit on how bad RNG can be to you (i.e. some people have run over 50 T3 defenses with a braton prime receiver)

 

edit: As for a solution, just condense the detron down to just one BP or making it clan tech, upping the spawn rate means we'll be attacked more and more even if we don't want it to spawn.

Edited January 3, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Histori]

The Orokin Derelict Survival droptables are pure garbage. Its a big freaking punch to the face when you are playing at 30+ minutes and keep getting slapped in the face by 1k credit rewards and common cores.

 

I guess someone like it that way, that must be a reason why they never fix it before.

And yes i hope they gonna fix it.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Histori

[WERElektro]

I don't understand why everyone's so upset about how the Detron is to be acquired.

I wouldn't mind an item that's super rare at all - most weapons in warframe are rather easy to get after all. It's okay the way it is, imo. The harder to get, the more awesome to own it.

 

 

The Codex is also pretty cool -

I just wish you could update it every now and then... with new official concept arts and fanarts, maybe?

 

As for viewing enemies and weapons in the codex - Would it be possible to control the "spinning" of the model / zoom in/out with the mouse?

 

And viewing melee weapons in the codex seems bugged. The model used to go into battle stance with weapon x equipped. Now it shows the model with the weapon stored. Doesn't allow you to get a good look at the weapon.

 

 

...and what's the problem with the rng?

Most games work like that.

Edited January 3, 2014 by WEREsandrock

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I don't understand why everyone's so upset about how the Detron is to be acquired.

I wouldn't mind an item that's super rare at all - most weapons in warframe are rather easy to get after all. It's okay the way it is, imo. The harder to get, the more awesome to own it.

The problem is that the detron requires roughly eight perfect RNG rolls to be acquired.

Edited January 3, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Phoenix86]

Looking forward for Detron and ODS drop fixes

[edryuu]

....>_> whatever....RNG just get rid of it.....Orokin Derelict Survival no parts other than Boar Prime Reciever....but no Burston Prime parts again RNG just make all the parts and BP higher chance already...or else just get rid of RNG system....Harvester meh whatever...Detron weapon just do the "WHAT STALKER?" BUNDLE OR pack or whatever already....(IF expensive ridiculous plats nope never buying it i dont care anymore) better yet Alad V and Zanuka just make it like you did in Phobos....drops warframe and weapons stuff makes things easier...and 10 Ridiculous Orokin Cell to make the Detron NO!!!!

[leonvision]

i was hoping there would be more of a...conclusive answer to the detron than just "we acknowledge your concerns". anyway, i prefer the detron be condensed down to 1 BP, but make it take lots of resources (in place of the previous parts). putting it in clan tech doesnt make sense AND it takes away the purpose of the harvester right now.

 

and ill like the stress DO NOT increase the spawn rate of the harvester, this would lead to it being a nuisance when we've all farmed the detron and dont want him spawning anymore. what we need is a more obvious and deliberate trigger to spawn him, currently no-one even knows how to(was hoping you'll tell us at some point as well). 

Edited January 3, 2014 by leonvision

[Vaskadar]

1 BP condensation would be better.

[LunariaN-]

plz dont make Detron an easy game like clan tech or parts from reward or rising the spawn rate

Edited January 3, 2014 by LunariaN-

[JJStorm]

Oh Almighty God (DE), Please Condense the Detron to 1 BP :)

[sedu13]

Not to sound like a jerk, but you guys should consider discussing drops before implementing them, not after.

 

Just sayin'.

Edited January 3, 2014 by sedu13

[mohrad]

I'm actually diggin the idea of connecting Invasions with weapon part battlepays.

Like... if the node is in stall (GODDAMN KAPPA-example) for longer period of time, Corpus guys could "add" extra reward and sent a callout for Tenno's to encourage us to help them.

[Voidflow]

Thank you Megan giving a sign :)

 

It is not only a RNG. 

 

It would make more sense if Detron would be dropped by enemy who actually use it as weapon (Crewman with Detron, or maybe Alad V), then RNG would be okay even at very low probability ...

Why Zanuka or Harvester should use Detron or contain its parts?

 

RNG behind RNG is awful and spoils a lot of fun. Maybe players got used to it, that most things in Warframe can be acquired by spending enough time. 

 

Market could be a solution or "Clan Dojo Research" maybe even paired with Codex, requiring 30 scans of Crewman with Detron in order being able to research it. 

Edited January 3, 2014 by Voidflow

[Egg_Chen]

I'm glad you guys realised the credit rewards in OD are not what we want, but I'm amazed you thought bigger credit rewards was the answer.

 

I despair sometimes, I really do.

You could have replaced credit rewards with rarer mods, or other prime parts from the void to help with the droptable dilution.

Instead we get more credits... we could have sold any unwanted prime parts for credits, and actually have a better chance of getting the part we wanted.

 

Does this thought process make sense to anyone :

 

Little Timmy was upset today because he got a doll for his birthday and he didn't want one.

Next year, I'll give him 3 dolls that should make him happy.

[lucio1019]

I am proposing a loot table idea.

 

My idea is: when a mission reward is generated, not just generate only one, but three or more different onces. Player on the hand could only pick one reward. The number of rewards can be generated by loot table can be expended.

So whenever the drop table is too big, loot table can be expended to against it.

 

I like the idea of RNG but I don't like out of control RNG. So I want something can count against out-of-control RNG, not get ride of RNG totally.