Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) This is how I think the list should be relative to level 80+ enemies (as a Rank 14 with every frame reactored + formad): Top: Banshee (modded right gives +1150% damage to whole team, added bonus it doesn't give warframe xp) Rhino (modded right gives either +114% damage or infinite stun w/ no max targets, all the while having a second shield with no duration or cooldown at minimal energy cost) Trinity (god mode: infinite energy for team + immortality for team + link breakage in many places) Nyx (only late game damage dealer, as Absorb scales passed the point weapons stop doing anything, and kills level 2861492562113857635's at roughly the same speed it kills level 20's) Nova (Primarily for the ball, but m prime is par as well) Edit for clarity: The bolds are my baselines for every type of angle a frame can take to achieve usefulness: Massive +damage for weapons 100% uptime non-conditional mass CC immortality / energy regen Damage abilities that SCALE SCALE SCALE SCALE SCALE SCALE SCALE My point is that if you take any 4 of these 5 you will have a group capable of 1 shotting things WAY into late game while being completely protected, even level 1000's post 2.0 die to +4000% damage done, and as such this is my primary judge: the ability to survive + complete late game. Situational Top: Vauban (Amazing when # of enemies is relatively low, but since all of his abilities have max targets, there are situations when a Vauban gets simply overrun without some type of energy manager a la trinity) Frost (Amazing on corpus / grineer defense missions, useless almost everywhere else without excessive teamwork, in which simply having a trinity is way better) EDIT: now bottom tier Mag (Shield Polarize can do massive damage where shields exist in lategame, useless where shields do not exist) Mid: Loki (mobility / invis / radial disarm can be made useful in endgame) Ember (accelerant + fire weapon = massive damage) Situational Mid: Nekros (Survival / farm god w/ maxed mods desecrate costs low energy with Massive range) Garbage / Useless: Volt (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Saryn (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Excalibur (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Ash (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Oberon (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Valkyr (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Frost Zephyr (Tentative) EDIT: EXPANDED TO COVER EACH ABILITY VS LEVEL 80+ Volt: 1 does <1% of HP* 2 irrelevant (may change with melee 2.0) 3 adds weapon damage and range, dwarfed by top tier abilities 4 does ~1% of HP Saryn: 1 does <1% of HP 2 irrelevant 3 adds melee weapon damage, dwarfed by top tier abilities 4 does ~1% of HP Excal: 1 does <1% of HP 2 irrelevant 3 blinds targets for a while, dwarfed by top tier abilities 4 does ~1% of HP w/ Animation Lock Ash: 1 does <1% of HP 2 invis same as loki's (mechanic-wise, different cost and duration) but worse due to innate lower speed and utility 3 irrelevant 4 Does ~1% of HP w/ Animation Lock FOREVER Oberon: 1 does <1% of HP 2 does <.1% of HP/s 3 irrelevant / dwarfed 4 does ~1% of HP Valkyr: 1 does <1% of HP 2 adds melee AS and armor while reducing enemy armor, potentially viable WITH melee 2.0, without its garbage 3 does ~1% of HP 4 Takes 4 mins of nonstop slashing to kill, aka <1% of HP per attack. *HP means total hit points; shield health and armor combined. I have every mod maxed, and have tried my best to abuse every warframe in every way conceivable, but I may have missed something, so LMK if I'm wrong here. What many people fail to understand is that abilities that don't scale are not useful in late game. At a point early on all of these abilities become utterly useless (and many more from the top tier frames themselves, at the bottom you can see many frames are only top tier due to 1 or 2 of its abilities, the others being as useless as the ones mentioned just above) Edit: 30 seems to have been too low a number to start with for people to truly comprehend what I am talking about, so I have adjusted to 80 so people can stop talking about "that 1 ability that works really well vs 1 faction's level 30's and shouldn't be labeled as useless" Also after discussion I have moved Mag to Situational TOP(okay okay already, if frost deserves situational top i guess mag polarize does too), as it can hurt things with shields into the lategame, but is still situational and straight up worse than any of my top tiers. To me a tool that is clearly not as effective as another tool is useless, because its use has become antiquated the same way scarificators are useless, or like using windows ME instead of XP / 7. Here's the list relative to abilities instead of frames: Top Tier / MOST useful relative to comparable abilities: Stomp + Iron skin + Roar, M Prime + A Drop, Sonar, Energy Vampire + Blessing, Snowglobe, Bastille / Vortex, Absorb / Chaos, Accelerant, Desecrate, Shield Polarize. ("+" denotes "in conjunction", "/" denotes "or") Useless / LESS useful relative to Top Tier: Everything else This means every other ability is dwarfed by these, again if I am wrong please LMK in the comments below. Edited February 6, 2014 by Scrybatog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Sorry, but how many frames have you played, max levelled/potated? Edited January 12, 2014 by Monolake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Excalibur's radial blind (which no one ever uses) is amazing and is not affected by level. Mag straight destroys corpus with shield polarize easily nukes high level corpus maps. Oberon got that distance revive and his ult is amazing at crowd stunning. Don't focus so much on how much damage the frames can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyunsai Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) No way in hell Mag is that low. She is on par with the best damage frames in the Void and completly surpasses by far any frame against high level Corpus. Pull is also a great CC when you're not a complete newbie. ----------------------------------- I also agree with the above poster on Excalibur, and by the fact you rely too much on damage numbers. Nyx is top tiers not because of Absorb, but because of Chaos. Edited January 12, 2014 by Hyunsai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony4580 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 ashes smoke bomb with a orthos is pretty deadly too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngerManagement Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Back in the day I had my Excalibur to take on anything, radial blind allows for alot more damage to be put out while there stunned. I'm still attached, cause he was my #1 c: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhoyzu Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 i dislike your bias against frost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nintega Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 What's the point of this thread? We shouldn't be trying to tier the frames based on thier current applications (not to mention you ignored many of the "garbage" frames utility), we should be trying to think of ways to balance the frames. DE already said somewhere that they don't plan to tier Warframes, something about making them all "awesome tier", which I assume means that every frame will be able to bring some usefulness to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidPunch Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I have to disagree with almost every one of your claims actually, it seems you based this primarily on damage and do not know how to use each frame properly or take advantage of what they are capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRad_Skirata Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 not a very good tiering system; wrong reasons or completely leaving out certain aspects of 'frames. and labeling the supposedly lower tier 'frames as garbage and useless... you must have your Narrow Minded mod equipped today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killerdude8 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I think this is a Joke topic guys. I sure had a good laugh. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Excalibur's radial blind (which no one ever uses) is amazing and is not affected by level. Mag straight destroys corpus with shield polarize easily nukes high level corpus maps. Oberon got that distance revive and his ult is amazing at crowd stunning. Don't focus so much on how much damage the frames can do. Oberons CC is lackluster compared to rhino Mag is very conditional, and detroy isn't the term id use for 30+ Radial blind is worse than rhino stomp Sorry, but how many frames have you played, max levelled/potated? All of them No way in hell Mag is that low. She is on par with the best damage frames in the Void and completly surpasses by far any frame against high level Corpus. Pull is also a great CC when you're not a complete newbie. ----------------------------------- I also agree with the above poster on Excalibur, and by the fact you rely too much on damage numbers. Nyx is top tiers not because of Absorb, but because of Chaos. Pull doesnt knock anything down anymore, and does 11 damage to level 30+ ashes smoke bomb with a orthos is pretty deadly too ... Back in the day I had my Excalibur to take on anything, radial blind allows for alot more damage to be put out while there stunned. I'm still attached, cause he was my #1 c: Thats cool, I didnt say you couldn't have fun with them, but radial blind is not viable when compared to rhino stomp i dislike your bias against frost I have no bias, just truth... What's the point of this thread? We shouldn't be trying to tier the frames based on thier current applications (not to mention you ignored many of the "garbage" frames utility), we should be trying to think of ways to balance the frames. DE already said somewhere that they don't plan to tier Warframes, something about making them all "awesome tier", which I assume means that every frame will be able to bring some usefulness to the table. My point was that I saw a lot of threads with misinformation on this topic, and since I know all the frames / abilities I thought I would give my opinion on their current state relative to end game viability. I have to disagree with almost every one of your claims actually, it seems you based this primarily on damage and do not know how to use each frame properly or take advantage of what they are capable of. Trinity is listed as top and has nothing to do with damage. Every frame listed as useless means anything they could possibly achieve is dwarfed by those in top tier. Not that they are incapable of accomplishing similar things in smaller capacities, just that for a 30 wave + ODD they would not be anywhere as useful as my top tier. not a very good tiering system; wrong reasons or completely leaving out certain aspects of 'frames. and labeling the supposedly lower tier 'frames as garbage and useless... you must have your Narrow Minded mod equipped today My tier system is based on logic and my understanding of frames usefulness for late game, instead of saying Im wrong maybe include any information at all relative to the topic at hand? I think this is a Joke topic guys. I sure had a good laugh. :D ... I'm sorry some people got their feelings hurt when their favorite flavored frame got listed in my useless tier, but I have yet to read a statement where someone added something I missed. I am talking about the 80+ which includes both level 81 enemies and level 2000 enemies (which I have encountered, both with and without damage 2.0) I have played long enough to have every single random drop weapon besides detron and hate, and have reviewed / studied every frame exclusively in the end game scene, and these are the conclusions I have made. The fact your favorite frame has 1 ability that is CONDITIONALY useful in a few situations does not top tier make, Please continue playing whats fun, but I don't see people saying "Doing ODS 50 mins+ / ODD 50 waves+ looking for Mag/Excal/Ash/Ober" because they are garbage tier relative to end game. Edit: Changed numbers to reflect my recent base number change, I understand if with level 80 as the baseline some of you retract your arguments. Edited January 12, 2014 by Scrybatog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shut Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I laughed at your suggestion that Mag was worse than Nekros. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makya Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Seeing as shield polarize scales infinitely.. Why is Mag so low when all Corpus are Shielded and most, if not all T3 are filled with shield drones which shield a multitude of units at once, which turn into bombs capable of clearing, or significantly damaging, most non heavy-units at a single use of Shield polarize. Also your listing of Ash as having nothing when he is as Loki highly mobile and invisible, two of the three reasons you say Loki is good. Edited January 12, 2014 by Makya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Seeing as shield polarize scales infinitely.. Why is Mag so low when all Corpus are Shielded and most, if not all T3 are filled with shield drones which shield a multitude of units at once, which turn into bombs capable of clearing, or significantly damaging, most non heavy-units at a single use of Shield polarize. Also your listing of Ash as having nothing when he is as Loki highly mobile and invisible, two of the three reasons you say Loki is good. Mag's shield polarize is conditional, but I will concede to it being mid tier with ember. Ash is nowhere near as fast as loki, and its invisibility doesnt last as long as loki's, and loki has disarm, ash has a non-scaling 4 that stops hurting anything after a certain point early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunaMayo Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 This is how I think the list should be relative to level 80+ enemies (as a Rank 12 with every frame reactored + formad): Top: Banshee (modded right gives +1150% damage to whole team, added bonus it doesn't give warframe xp) Rhino (modded right gives either +114% damage or infinite stun w/ no max targets, all the while having a second shield with no duration or cooldown at minimal energy cost) Trinity (god mode: infinite energy for team + immortality for team + link breakage in many places) Nyx (only late game damage dealer, as Absorb scales passed the point weapons stop doing anything, and kills level 2861492562113857635's at roughly the same speed it kills level 20's) Nova (Primarily for the ball, but m prime is par as well) Situational Top: Vauban (Amazing when # of enemies is relatively low, but since all of his abilities have max targets, there are situations when a Vauban gets simply overrun without some type of energy manager a la trinity) Frost (Amazing on corpus / grineer defense missions, useless almost everywhere else without excessive teamwork, in which simply having a trinity is way better) Mid: Loki (mobility / invis / radial disarm can be made useful in endgame) Ember (accelerant + fire weapon = massive damage) Situational Mid: Nekros (Survival / farm god w/ maxed mods desecrate costs low energy with Massive range) Garbage / Useless: Volt (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Saryn (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Excalibur (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Ash (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Mag (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Oberon (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) Valkyr (nothing does anything to 80+ that a top tier doesn't do better / less conditionally) I have every mod maxed in the game, and have tried my best to abuse every warframe in every way conceivable, but I may have missed something, so LMK if I'm wrong here. Edit: 30 seems to have been too low a number to start with for people to truly comprehend what I am talking about, so I have adjusted to 80 so people can stop talking about "that 1 ability that works really well vs 1 faction's level 30's and shouldn't be labeled as useless" Let us not forget some things you are missing here.... Top Tier Banshee - Has one completely useless power. Trinity - Relies heavily on Blessing to be useful to the team. Basically roflgodmodeframe. Nyx - Has arguably 2 powers that are not worth equipping. Frost - Without snowglobe, is nothing. Mid Nekros - Is completely pants without desecrate. Low Mag - highly underutilised, shield polarise scales indefinitely for shielded targets. Making her killer for corpus. Excal - highly underutilised, radial blind can be a better crowd control than radial disarm. And is cheaper to spam. My point is not that you are wrong. It is more that some/alot of your "Top" tier frames are cheap, one trick ponies that need some loving from the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Let us not forget some things you are missing here.... Top Tier Banshee - Has one completely useless power. Trinity - Relies heavily on Blessing to be useful to the team. Basically roflgodmodeframe. Nyx - Has arguably 2 powers that are not worth equipping. Frost - Without snowglobe, is nothing. Mid Nekros - Is completely pants without desecrate. Low Mag - highly underutilised, shield polarise scales indefinitely for shielded targets. Making her killer for corpus. Excal - highly underutilised, radial blind can be a better crowd control than radial disarm. And is cheaper to spam. My point is not that you are wrong. It is more that some/alot of your "Top" tier frames are cheap, one trick ponies that need some loving from the developers. Your not wrong either. Most of them ARE 1 trick ponies, really my post could have been "tiered abilities" as thats the only stats on warframes that really matter into late game, and would be something like this:Top Tier / MOST useful relative to comparable abilities: Stomp + Roar + Iron Skin, M Prime + A Drop, Sonar, Energy Vampire + Blessing, Snowglobe, Bastille / Vortex, Absorb / Chaos, Accelerant, Desecrate, Shield Polarize. ("+" denotes "in conjunction", "/" denotes "or") Useless / LESS useful relative to Top Tier: Everything else Also you mentioned that silence is useless and radial blind can be useful, but remember both together create completely helpless enemies, just like rhino / nyx do with 1 ability... Edited January 12, 2014 by Scrybatog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter11 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Yeah...I'm not sure how useful any of these lists are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Yeah...I'm not sure how useful any of these lists are. Not at all if one lacks the ability to think critically and logically, Since every other list I have seen does not, this is my attempt at creating one while doing so. I have every frame and am not biased, my list is based purely on math and logic, which is why I have only received one notable correction instead of a plethora of logical arguments ("quit hating on my fav frame that i have never actually attempted end game with" excluded). This, to me, proves that I am right and that my list is mathematically sound. I would appreciate staying away from off topic discussions / belittling my work here without some sort of logical argument as to why. Edited January 12, 2014 by Scrybatog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varzy Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Forgive my if I'm incorrect, but hasn't DE stated they're not that interested in balancing for lv80+? I thought lv40-49 was what they considered end-game, and they try to build frames accordingly. If only ability damage was based on enemy health %... Edited January 12, 2014 by Varzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trikan Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Don't know why people are ripping on this guy, he's pretty close to right outside of Mag not being situational top. Too many COD players focused on muh soloability I guess. Team synergy is the most important thing. Edited August 19, 2021 by Trikan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrybatog Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Forgive my if I'm incorrect, but hasn't DE stated they're not that interested in balancing for lv80+? I thought lv40-49 was what they considered end-game, and they try to build frames accordingly. If only ability damage was based on enemy health %... This isn't a "NERF" thread, its a simple statement listing the frames and their effectiveness at high stakes, I am not crying for balance, but simply stating the facts as they appear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trikan Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 As far as Banshee, wouldn't put her in the same league as the others because there isn't enough room in a group for her. It's almost always Trinity, Rhino, Nova, X, sometimes dropping Trinity for Vauban in infested missions. Bashee can't unseat those three non-variable frames and there are better frames to fill in that fourth slot. Frost for non-infested defense (or radial disarm Loki), and vauban for infested defense and survival. Nekros for survival. Banshee doesn't have a place in any of those groups so I wouldn't bring her, which is why I don't agree with her position in the top. Mag trivializes Corpus. They all die when she casts polarize. That's a fairly strong trick on top of pull spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teardanos Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Saryn doesn't even deserve to be on garbage list. Add extra context: ''Far below garbage/trash'' and add saryn there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Yeah, OP clearly has no idea how to play half of the frames. Not sure if serious or just trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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