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CubedOobleck
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Anyone who used Ash will have noticed that all his skills are a bit iffy, not necessarily weak but ineffective especially towards stealth.
 
SHURIKENS
I personally would have prefered a different approach that still required you to aim and attempt headshots, which you can no longer do with the current homing. But I really can't complain much as the skill is great, the high AP damage is nicely balanced by the limit of 2 targets. The homing works most of the time, the main problem is when a shuriken locks onto an enemy that is taking cover, which is why I suggest the shuriken should have 'priorities' and enemies in cover should be last on the list. If the connection to the host is bad homing just won't work.
 
SMOKESCREEN
This skill is well balanced, if you compare it to Loki's Invisibility it lasts less, but also costs less and stuns. I feel however that they are still too similar.
What I suggest is that Smokescreen should last longer, but you are only invisible if you actually stand in the smoke (the smoke would be large-ish). This would make it subtly different from loki's ability: i.e. more adequate for dispatching slow enemies or protecting an area, but not so much for taking down moving targets or flee.
It would also be interesting if allies in the smoke became invisible too, making this ability more team versed, which is always a good thing in coop games.
 
TELEPORT
The main issue here is that, while it does exactly what you'd expect, it doesn't do it well. You even teleport in front of your enemy while the logical thing would be behind. I think this skill should at least stun your target and/or perform a stealth takedown. Moreover the landing animation can literally mean your death in a dangerous situation because basically it stuns you right in front of your enemy.
 
BLADESTORM
This is the only ultimate that has a limited number of targets, which means it has a limit to the damage it will deal. This makes it different from other ultimates and variation is always good, but to compensate it should be able to attack the same enemy more than once (with less damage perhaps) if it hasn't finished it's attacks and there aren't other targets in range. The skill should also last a lot less.
Another unique feature of this ultimate is that it requires a target to initiate which of course makes it less viable as a life saver but allows you to ulti-snipe packs of enemies.
As DE probably knows by now, BladeStorm is quite iffy, sometimes it works sometimes it stops halfway when it clearly had more enemies to hit. It also looks very chunky with that FOV effect.
 
MOD POLARITY
Besides the 4 skills slots Ash has 2 damage slots and the only 3 mods with damage polarity are Continuity, Focus and the extremely rare Rage. Continuity and Focus are both kind of meh on ash, smokescreen is really short so it doesn't last much longer, while shuriken and bladestorm already 1hk enemies on the vast majority of levels. I think one of the damage polarity should be replaced with another type.
 


Banshee feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46387-banshee-feedback/?p=469683
Frost feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/42221-frost-feedback/

Loki feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64930-loki-feedback/

Nyx feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/37656-nyx-feedback/
Rhino feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/19790-rhino-feedback/?p=176272
Saryn feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63519-saryn-feedback/
Trinity feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/24289-trinity-feedback/?p=217976

Vauban feedback - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68822-vauban-feedback/

Stats overview - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/43702-stats-overview/

Edited by CubedOobleck
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Shurikin DOES hit multiple enemies if you aim it right.

but its still unreliable and only of use in close range combat or in corridors .

smoke screen would be completly useless if you couldn't move out of the smoke and stay invisible.

teleport is ok but i feel the little twirl at the end should allow for a follow up attack because what usually happens is that you teleport then stand there for a second getting shot and only then you can move and need to charge an attack or whatever.

this is suicide in most cases.

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Anyone who used Ash will have noticed that all his abilities are a bit iffy, not necessarily weak but hard to use or pointless

BLADESTORM

This is the only ultimate that has a limited number of targets (12 maxed out), which means it has a limit to the damage it will deal. This makes it different from other ultimates and variation is always good, but to compensate it should be able to attack the same enemy more than once if it hasn't finished it's attacks and there aren't other targets in range.

i agree with this..

first time i think bladestorm is kind of Omnislash (Cloud skill from FF7) .. i find it .. not realy 'good and powerful' as others ultimate

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i agree with this..

first time i think bladestorm is kind of Omnislash (Cloud skill from FF7) .. i find it .. not realy 'good and powerful' as others ultimate

Bladestrom damage is unmitigated by armor like other AOE ultimates and render Ash completely invulnerable from damage during the duration. Quite useful since it doesn't need power damage mod to support it's damage.

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Smoke Screen: I would agree with the other critiques that smoke screen should keep you invisible while you are moving out of the cloud, lest its usefulness be greatly compromised and the amount of options available after using it greatly reduced. More versatility and options = better. I think it is an interesting thought as to the stealthing allies too, but I could see them amping the power cost for something like that and I'd rather it kept it's cost and stayed how it is. Smoke screen is one of ash's few skills that I say is pretty much fine. I like the way it works, and while it is fairly useless at rank 0, it gets decent time on it. You mention that the time is less than the Loki Invis, which is a good mechanic because it costs less energy to use. Loki's invis is longer, but it costs more.

Shuriken: I don't know what the damage maxes out on shuriken in the new card setup/patch, but I rarely find myself using it except for to consume energy and net a shred of bonus xp. With my current setup (still need to max it out with the new system, going the slow route with cards since using fusion cores is goofily priced and will be revised again in a coming hot fix) I find I actually deal more damage using my ulti than 4 shurikens. The trajectory is a bit weird sometimes for long distances, and I really can't justify using them often in comparison with just shooting or slashing. I like some of the suggestions you mentioned, and would be enthused to see either of the puncturing or multiple shuriken varieties tested.

Teleport- Teleport to me is kinda meh. Yes, it is a gap closure, but it lacks the versitility of some of the other movement related powers. I can only teleport to an enemy- repositioning in bad location is gone unless I jump to a lonesome foe away from the crowd, repositioning to sneak around a group to get advantageous position is impossible for the aforementioned reason, and I can't use it to quickly move through distances in a manner similar to any of the dash skills. It is similar to loki swap with less versatility. I would at least like to be able to teleport to an ally, if not at the cursor so that I can keep up with the faster frames albeit at a power cost.

Bladestorm- While most of us were thinking hell yeah, omnislash (whether the cloud or juggernaut rendition dependant on ff7/dota experience) it leaves a bit to be desired. I find often times when I use this skill I suddenly magically aoe taunt the whole enemy roster. If I am essentially teleport slashing behind enemies, they shouldn't see me- it should resemble the scene in the x=men movie where nightcrawler was a baddie and bamfing around the room taking out all the secret service agents. As someone who has a lot of firearms training, I could say that it would be a royal $#*(@ trying to predict and react fast enough to aim, let alone shoot, someone who is teleporting around the room slicing people to bits. Frequently the skill bugs any time there are varying elevations such as on ramps or stairs, or in the presence of flying enemies. The last point is hardly crucial as it is more of a nit picking for pre-release polishing. The max hit cap in comparision with some of the heavier aoe ults is a bit annoying, and some tweaking would be nice in one way or another to keep the skill desirable as we scale through the game and into late game with the new system.

TLDR: Shuriken could use a rework/redesign.

Smokescreen should stay- it is good where it is at and isn't unbalanced.

Teleport could use some tweaking for added versatility. Either allow teleporting to allies or crosshair.

Bladestorm could use some graphical tweaks and polishing as well as a bit of adjustment to make it feel right. Users often take a lot of damage when using, and the max targets limits the ultimates situational uses far more than most aoe ults out there.

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I agree with Shuriken, it needs something too make it not so finicky. One idea that I thought of is that it could home in a little bit so you don't miss so often at long ranges. Ash IS a ninja, so adding some curve too his throw would make sense. I miss the old damage, 500 with 1k headshots. Now I only hit like 700 or so in the head and I think that's a crit too.

Smoke screen is fine. Restricting it would ruin it.

Telport I have removed from my warframe entirly. It's not that great, and the flip at the end is annoying since it doesn't follow up into anything other than getting shot.

As for Bladestorm yeah it's a bit odd sometimes, I have used it in a massive group of enemies, killed two then stopped. it wasn't even the weird elevation thing it just stopped.

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As for Bladestorm yeah it's a bit odd sometimes, I have used it in a massive group of enemies, killed two then stopped. it wasn't even the weird elevation thing it just stopped.

Yeah, Bladestorm is... temperamental... like that.

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Shuriken - Animation Change hurls a Giant plasma suriken instead of the little glowing orb with a wider hitbox

Smoke Screen - add in a shadowy or smokey outline for the frames and weapons so that the players can see their frame and judge melee distance better.

when used next to an allie they are granted temporary invisiblity while they remain in the smoke bomb

Teleport - if used while Invisible you will automaticly do a stealth kill on an enemy and increase the duration of your invisiblity by x amount of seconds.

when visible and teleport to an enemy you do an attack (like an instant Heavy charge attack or a special Strike)

When you teleport to an Allie you drop a small smoke bomb granting invisiblity for a short Duration

the ability to teleport to terrain not just to enemies and allies (gives potential for finding good sniper spots in a big map more versatility to close gaps ect)

Blade Storm - Change the Animation's to have a black Smoke effect "Ash teleports near an enemy then hitting X enemies depending on your weapon ash teleports up to 12 times " (leaving behind a black shadow afterwards)

add in multiple hits on targets, if there are less than 12 enemies then you will teleport between them both for a reduced amount of jumps depending on how many enemies are around hitting a single target no more then 4 times (also applies for single targets) each consecutive hit reducing damage by 25% of the last strike

have the effects of bladestorm changed by your melee weapon and its mods applies Elemental/Armor Pen damage but is not effected by increased Melee Damage

Heavy weapon wider slashing arch Hitting up to 5 enemies but for a reduced damage (hit between 800-1000 on each enemie), single/duel swords hits 1-2 targets for a medium amount of damage (between 1500-2000) , Daggers/Fang only hits a single target per teleport dealing increased damage striking Vital Points on his Enemy (hit 2000+) will require multiple new animations but im sure DE_Geoff will enjoy the challenge =)

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Shuriken- Quicken the animation and buff damage+add single target stun.

Smoke Screen- Make Ash invulnerable like loki stealth and quicken the animation of throwing the bomb so you can act faster. The AoE stun of close range targets is fine and should be left alone it is what makes it semi useful at the moment.

Teleport- Change it to a target teleport anywhere your cursor is aimed at.

Blade Storm- Not make us fall through the earth and buff AoE damage.

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Tossing my suggestions in here because I really, really want to like Ash but find Excalibur better in *almost* every way.

Shuriken - This ability has lost all novelty now that we have the Bolto, Akbolto, Rifle Bolto (forgot it's name offhand) and Paris that all do the "nail enemy to walls" trick. It doesn't do enough damage and can only kill a single target making it not worth the energy expenditure when you could just save up for a well timed Blade Storm. There are a few different directions this could be taken:

First, no matter what tweaks are made the ability is ridiculously hard to aim. I can't quite put my finger on it, but you can put your crosshair on an enemy, hit this ability, and it will miss sometimes. This needs to be fixed.

Possible Improvements

A Ranged "Slash Dash" - Have the single shuriken peirce and impale a number of enemies in a line like a ranged version of the slash dash. If the shuriken can't do enough damage to kill an enemy in the line it stops there and applied a certain amount of damage. At least this way you can impale a number of enemies at once making the ability more novel than the weapons that have the same perk.

Multiple Shuriken - Have ash launch multiple shuriken at once in a semi-AOE fasion. Number of shuriken and the size of the AOE launch is decided by ability level.

Smoke Screen - Good for a quick escape from a hairy situation, but nothing else. It doesn't last long enough to be an offensive ability against more than one opponent and the stun is worthless because you're invisible and it doesn't last long either.

Possible Improvements

Longer stun - Have the stun last three to four times longer. I mean, your enemies are now stuck in a cloud of thick smoke. Anything that breathes should be coughing and having trouble breathing. Corpus walkers would be knocked backed briefly but not stunned. If you go this route leave the invisibility time alone. This way it can be used either offensively or as an escape.

Longer invisibility - Make the smoke cloud larger and have Ash be invisible as long as the player remains in the smoke cloud. Have the smoke cloud last three to four times longer. Keep the stun the same, little more than a knockback. Potentially include highlighting any enemies caught in the cloud.

Teleport - This could be so cool, but it is ultimately infuriating. I only just started experimenting with this ability but when I first used it I discovered to my annoyance that I appeared in front of my enemy and was instantly melee'd. After the ability is finished I also discovered that you cannot move for the first half a second once you leave potentially leaving you to take a lot of damage particularly from higher level enemies that have high ROF weapons. I only use this ability now if I am 100% sure that my opponent is firing at someone else in my group or if the enemy is trash and I can be guarenteed to not take much damage.

Potential Improvements

Behind the Back - Have ash teleport behind an enemy and have that enemy lose sight of Ash for a moment. This will make it so that I don't get annihilated by the enemy I'm teleporting to but leaves me at the mercy of the other enemies in the area that are still targeting me.

Seamless Exit - Improve the ability so there is no lag time between when I exit teleport and when my controls are available so I can, for instance, teleport and immediately melee my target.

Teleport Slash - Increase cost to 50 energy and make Teleport into "Teleport Slash" - a single target ability that performs that same function as Blade Storm but to only one target. Range would still be decided by the level of the ability. Damage increases with level. After performing the slash Ash would return to the point where he teleported just like blade storm. For greater synergy with Ash's ultimate ability see below:

Blade Storm - A very cool ability. There isn't anything like clearing out a wave in a defense mission and the teleporting to safety behind cover once you've cut everyone in half. I have a different option though for the ultimate considering my suggestion for Teleport:

Possible Improvements

Visuals are everything - Blade Storm is cool, but it's sort of lack luster visually. Many times Ash will teleport five to ten feet to the side of an enemy, do a cutting animation and still kill the target. Sort of weird looking. There has got to be a way to better visually represent what is happening.

Alternate Ultimate Idea - Make Ash's ultimate into the ultimate smoke ability. Fill a very large area with smoke and give ash invisibility inside of the cloud and increased melee damage and speed. This would seperate Ash's ultimate from all of the other ultimates: It would rely on the player's ability rather than a fire and forget ultimate that kills everything in a certain area.

Anyway those are my ideas. Again, I really want to like Ash and I continually bring him to level the warframe up but I feel that other frames do Ash's job better and the pretense of "stealth gameplay" with Ash is a joke.

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I like the idea of his ultimate becoming a very large, 'beefed up' smokebomb. I would subscribe to that. I already did that sort of thing with my ranked up smokebomb before 2.0mods. Ran from target to target slicing them up before they could see me.

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I find my Ash better than my Volt. But I wholeheartedly agree that it's skills need improvement.

The shuriken could be launched in groups, or be at least bigger and faster.

The Smoke Bomb can be an AOE stealth that hides Ash and his friends inside. Good for team play and giving him mobile invisibility makes the skill a rip-off of Loki's.

The Teleport should at least teleport behind or in the air so we could connect attacks immediately with it.

The Blade Storm... *sigh*... very lack luster and under powered since it's slow and has a limited target count. Why not make the animation faster, instantly slashing those 12 targets in a second. And give some fancy animations like the enemies standing still for a second before getting sliced. (You are already dead. You have just not caught up to it...)

IT'S PRETTY STUPID THAT I USE MY BLADE STORM THEN A VOLT OVERLOADS THE PLACE AND KILLS EVERYONE BEFORE I GET TO KILL THEM. D:<

Edited by ReaverShale
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i've had Ash's Bladestorm smack 7 outta 10 targets in a room.

other times i've had it reaching over that 12 hit cap. was 13/14 a few times.

and other times. Bladestorm will just smack the nearest 5 targets and leaving the other 3 THAT ARE CLEARLY within range unscathed.

but yeah. it's nice for the clutch clear and invuln. but overall i find myself spamming SmokeScreen, and even that needs a buff. the invis on it doesnt last long enough for anything. and the stun helps a ton when you're trying to revive a dead ally that somehow got caught in a corpus crossfire or infested feedfest.

but yeah. +1 to the OP. most of the stuff you brought up are the ones my buddies and i and complaining about too.

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I do agree with Teleport,But the rest of Ash's skills doens't need improvments.you guys forget,you came up to a mission with weapons,Aaaand it's clearly proved that you didn't tried out maxed mods on ash.just try and you'l see why its that way.

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I do agree with Teleport,But the rest of Ash's skills doens't need improvments.you guys forget,you came up to a mission with weapons,Aaaand it's clearly proved that you didn't tried out maxed mods on ash.just try and you'l see why its that way.

So your answer to all the criticism and suggestions thoughtfully posted in this thread is to tell us "spend 20-30 hours and tens of thousands of credits to max out the powers and you won't complain anymore"?

Why do I need to max Ash's powers for abilities like Shuriken, Smokebomb, and Bladestorm to be effective when I can just as easily play Excalibur whose abilities are all useful (sans power jump) from the get go without any investment of mod farming or cash? I don't hold to the notion that a warframe has to suck for the first couple dozen hours of use in order to be effective.

You've also ignored largely good criticism of abilities besides teleport without any real counter arguements. Why does shuriken good enough, iny our opinion, to not need any changes? What about smokebomb? And you're ok with Blade Storm acting strangely and looking weird?

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I play Ash as my only warframe and I agree with teleport, dont have it equipped and it was pretty useless when I did try using it.

The shuriken ability is a bit too unpredictable at range, or hell, even close up. I have tried to throw it point blank before and had it pass just to the right of an enemy. When it does hit it does do some decent damage, but hitting is too much of a problem. I would rather see it be bigger than it currently is, or fire off more than one so I can throw it into an oncoming crowd of infested chargers to slim their ranks down.

His smokescreen is good at very quickly getting out of a group of melee enemies, and it has saved my butt a few times doing that. I can see how the invisiblity fits in with smokebombs, its short lived but just barely long enough to get away...then again with cyberninjas you do expect a bit more from it.

As for Ash's bladestorm. It is a very powerful ability...when you can fire it off near a large enough group, but its a bit inconsistant. The reason I say that is sometimes it fires off right away, other times it just wont fire off at all until you mash 4 around 10 to 15 times. And the amount of enemies it can hit varies too much, from only 2 or 3 out of a group of 20 to a few times around 17 total. And the range the enemies have to be at is also inconsistant. Sometimes I can cover an entire room, other times only a short stretch of hallway.

Also I would like to suggest one more thing: maybe have its effect change slightly depending on the weapon you have equipped. Such as the gram able to hit more than one enemy per swing, or the fangs able to have a higher target count.

As for the suggested changes to bladestorm I really like the idea that it should hit enemies more than once if it has hits left over after clearing out a crowd....this would make it useful against Grineer Commanders and heavy gunners. I also think they should either increase the range or up the number of hits and make the number of hits more reliable. It has saved mine, and my teams, &amp;#&#33; more than one time as an "Oh #$" button, and other times not so much.

Honestly one of the biggest changes I would like to see quickly to bladestorm though is a cosmetic change: I have only used sword weapons so I cant speak for the other types like bo or zorans, but he has used the same animations. They looked fine while using the Skana Prime, but stabbing with a Gram, which has a blunt tip?

Edited by Tsukinoki
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Sorry the say this but, the Ash Smoke Screen idea is soooo bad.. Why would you want to be invisible in a little spot? and btw, Smoke Screen just need a duration buff and everyones happy, Loki's invisibility does 150% + melee damage while Ash's invisibility does only 50% + melee dmg, If u keep the dmaage but increase it's duration it would all be good and still balanced.

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