Mod Fusion Gain Numbers

[Cauldrath]

I wasn't able to confirm all of these numbers, as I didn't have the exact mods, but the math seemed to work out for the ones I tested:

Assuming unranked common exp bar is 24 exp:

Common fusion mods = 12+6xLevel exp

Uncommon fusion mods = 24+12xLevel exp

Rare fusion mods = 36+18xLevel exp

Same card commons = 24+12xLevel exp

Matched polarity commons = 12+6xLevel exp

Unmatched polarity commons = 6+3xLevel exp

Same card uncommons = 48+24xLevel exp

Matched polarity uncommons = 24+12xLevel exp

Unmatched polarity uncommons = 12+6xLevel exp

Same card rares = 72+36xLevel exp

Matched polarity rares = 36+18xLevel exp

Unmatch polarity rares = 18+9xLevel exp

Fusion costs:

Commons: 200x(1+Level)

Uncommons: 400x(1+Level)

Rares: 800x(1+Level)

Sell values:

Common Fusion: 125+25xLevel (truncate to increments of 50)

Uncommon Fusion: 350+50xLevel

Rare Fusion: 700+100xLevel

Fusing onto rares gain 1/3 exp, uncommons gain 1/2 exp, each rank halves exp gain.

So, (1/2)^Level/3 for rares, (1/2)^Level/2 for uncommons, (1/2)^Level for commons. Actual numbers are obviously going to be much higher than 24 total exp in the bar, so don't truncate for that.

As of hotfix 7.4, overflow from one rank to the next has appropriate penalties applied.

Mods are applied in some arbitrary order (most likely position in memory), not the order you click on them or the order they are displayed in your inventory, and reductions are applied based on the rank of the mod when they are applied, so a mod can give rank 2 exp at a rank 1 rate as long as it was rank 1 when that mod was applied.

Things to note:

1) Rares cost 4x as many credits to fuse as commons, but give only 3x as much fusion experience.

2) Rank 10 fusion mods cost 11x as much to fuse as unranked, but give 11/6 the exp (just under twice as much) (as of 7.4, 6x as much exp)

3) High-level rares can still be more cost-effective than uncommons or commons, but only if they are giving experience that overflows from one rank to the next, because you can get more overflow from rares than from commons/uncommons. The extra overflow you get from the rare compared to using uncommons or commons is effectively 6x the fusion experience at 4x the cost.

4) Because adding a mod might add it to the application order earlier than your current mods, it may cause current mods to be applied at higher ranks than before, which reduces the effect you get from them. This is what causes adding mods to not give any additional experience or even reduce it.

5) The optimal mod application is (un)commons until almost leveling up, then your biggest rare, then (un)commons until almost leveling up, then your second-biggest rare, etc. Generally as you rank up a mod, it will be harder to get significant overflow from your rares and you should just use commons and uncommons.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Cauldrath

[Obstaculo]

thanks for the info.

[NegimaSonic]

the overflow concept is news to me, seems cool.

[electricsheep]

Thanks for taking the time to figure all of this out.

The whole concept of halving XP gain per level instead of doubling the XP requirement is bizzare. So, instead of behaving like every other item that accumulates XP in the game, it has it's own mechanic that is less clear (overflow? mods reducing total XP? what?) and harder to tweak (there goes my wishful thinking about a proper level XP curve instead of this doubling schtick)? I wonder how/why it got designed that way.

[Brasten]

If this is correct, then I can't say I'm happy with DE. Reverse illogical systems like this are bad over the long term. Partly because the more complex they are the harder they are to balance well as new content rolls out. For example, what happens if they eventually want to take a Mod up to 20 or 30 ranks... seems silly I know, but not outside the realm of future prospects.

I also ran into the 4x cost on Rares but only 3x while trying to work out prices. I honestly though it was a bug and not an intened feature. Again, not very happy. I'd rarther see a more streight forward system.

It smacks of doing "1 + 1 = 3" because they can.

*edit*

The only reason I can see doing it this way is to reduce the total "Rating/XP" value that each mod has to store, however that doesn't make much sense since the idea is that its doubling number 2, 4, 8, 16... 512, 1024 at the max. 1024 is only an 11 bit value. I just don't see a logical or practical reason to do things this way. Other then to make upper end extreme grinding and credit heavy sink.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Brasten

[Thelonious]

TL:DR: Fusion mods are a scam to empty CB testers credits stack.

I personally gave up on using my 50+ pages of fusion mods when I realized normal mods are waaaaaaay more efficient.

YOU WONT GET MY MONEEEEY!!!!

On a more serious note, they need to reduce fusion costs with fusion mods, cause right now, with most of the player base having around 100K credits, they're worthless.

Unless you farm more. Just for credits. Sad.

Or they could increase the "mod xp" gain for fusion mods. I don't understand why a single rank 10 fusion mod can't even level up a rank 0 rare mod.

I mean, rank 10 vs 0, that should pop the overflow out of the screen!

The thing is, fusion mods have no polarity at all. That already increases mod cost by 4. Added to the ridiculous price of the fusion, it's a no no for any smart player. Or poor ones, which is now 99.9% of the player base thanks to fusion mods.

Edit: Oh wait, this thread is not about fusion cores at all. Forget it. Just don't use them. Ever.

And don't use ranked up mods to level up others. It's as bad.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Thelonious

[Brasten]

*nudges thread back to top*

[TraumaHunter]

mmmm spreadsheets.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

great research

[Cauldrath]

Updated first post for hotfix 7.4 and calculated sell price for commons:

Fusion core ranks are now worth 6x as much as before. (Now the same at all ranks as matched-polarity mods)

Overflow from one rank to another has appropriate penalties applied.

[highlifeSW]

KISS, Keep it simple, stupid. The System may work but it`s way to complicated.Calculate a value to raise each Mod to the next level and give each Module a fusion Value according to level and rarity. Fusion cores dump rarity and level and jst give a plain fusion value. I want to play warframe and not Excel.

[Dreamwalk3r]

So yeah, rare cores suck (aside from rank 0 and 1).

[Thelonious]

Steve still has some rework to do on these...

I already have pages of rare 5 that add up to the dozens of pages of rank 10 we got from update 6. I'll never use them with those numbers.

Cost should just be based on Energy gain, not rarity or rank. 10 creds per energy would be a fair trade.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Thelonious

[darkprophecies]

Thanks for the info cauldrath. I have quoted your information into this little guide ive gathered and created https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/18773-tips-for-new-players/

[R4mmr0d]

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused:  I have some duplicate common 'ability/skill' mods for frames i don't have.  For example, i have four common Saryn 'venom' mods.  Should i fuse them into a single higher rank mod, or wait until i build saryn and fuse all of them into the elite i am given upon building it?  Would fusing a lvl 2 common into a lvl 0 elite be a moronic use of the potential xp?

[Demonomicon]

Can somebody explain this for me?

Im not understanding at all what this means :D.

I normally only decide what is the mod i want to level up (from the ones i like to use ofc) and i do that based on what mod is the cheapest in fusion cost to upgrade and still gives me a good increase.

 

But i dont understand this info about fusion.... is it only for cores?

 

In low level fusion cores seem to speed up the processs when you are rather poor in ammount of mods and credits, but now im working on lvl 5-8 mods and costs are starting to very high for 1 rank.

 

Btw, i figured out today (after a week of playing) that fusing same polarity is better than diferent :D.

[Vanadio]

Following the formulas in this doc there's no evidence that fusing low level mod/cores is less efficient, despite the fact it is clear fusing mods in game. Something wrong with the formulas? Please have a look at this excel, where the issue is clear (no efficiency drop when fusing low level): https://www.dropbox.com/s/y82jyjtxgk8a466/MOD_Fusion.xlsx