Frost Revisited 3/3/2014

[[DE]Rebecca]

Tenno,

 

Frost and his recent changes are still being reviewed by dev, and we'd like to start up another 'mega' post for discussion based on dev's current thoughts.

 

Dev has expressed the following considerations in the continued balancing of his skills, particularly Snow Globe:

 

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

 

As your sessions with Frost go on, please weigh in this week on dev's current considerations as well as your own thoughts.

 

Please keep the discussion and conversation in line with our best posting practices and rules - constructive posts are best posts.

 

Thank you!

 

 

[notionphil]

make cold damage regenerate globe health

 

other parsimonious fixes for many of Warfame's lackluster powers

Edited March 4, 2014 by notionphil

[Valiant]

Here we go again...

 

I would say Dev's are definitely going in the right direction and the armour bonus would definitely make it more interesting. Both should be implemented for sure. It would restore some faith in the community too.

 

However, I am going to bring it up even though I don't want to - how many globes are we going to be restricted in using? I would say 3 even 4 sounds reasonable. I mention it because if not we'll get globe chaos throughout the battlefield and it'll do more harm than good so I see this feature being implemented eventually. Unless once you cast another after your final, the first one ever casted instantly disappears but either way, still a limit of 3/4 would fit nicely with it. Makes sense now that I think about it.

 

Anyways...

Edited March 3, 2014 by Naith

[Bobsplosion]

If the globe can be killed, then it shouldn't be able to be killed by a timer.

[Detheroc]

If you do that, allow us to shoot through the globe. Because if there will be tons and tons of globes that have to expire before we can shoot that area, that wont help.

[Tveoh]

still say bump the base hp up some.  but remove the timer..   armor is a nice idea too.

[Cybernetix]

Just a random thought to throw in - give frost a slowing aura like coolant leak for a few seconds every time he casts a power. If zephyr is the start of passive abilities then something like this could be cool.

 

edit: Pun not intended

Edited March 3, 2014 by Cybernetix

[JerryMouse13]

If the plan is to apply Frost's armor rating to Snow-Globe then I think that frost could probably use a small boost to his armor rating, say up to 200 or so, as well as an increase to his base health, in order to actually make building for armor more desirable on Frost.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JerryMouse13

[TheFBOMB]

Are we gonna get the fish tail fixed?

[Namacyst]

If you remove the Duration timer from Frost Globe it will invite trolling and spam. Frost Globe can be beneficial if you want to defend something but if someone wants to annoy people a Frost can basically prevent gunplay in spamming globes everywhere.

 

If you remove the timer then make it so teammates bullets can penetrate(ignore) the globe.. but this still leaves the visibility issue.

 

Applying Armor value to the Globe would offer nice synergies with other Frames (Valkyr Battle Cry) and would give Armor on Frost some use.. but i doubt that it will be enough to make the Globe more viable for endgame without having to spam it over an over to not break instantly against a horde of lvl 50+ enemies.

[Genoscythe]

Id say give it armor, make it without duration, but make only 1 snowglobe placeable at a time (placing a new one despawns the old one).

 

Freeze could use a freezing AoE, really when will first skills ever be worth something? Why not make them cooldown-based instead of giving them an energy cost?

 

maybe make power strenght affect the multiplier frosts armor bonus is applied on the globe? Because he is thought as action-defender, so why not let all his skills synergize with damage?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Genoscythe

[DaftMeat]

Adding Armor to snow globe may help a lot, but it's hard to say without actually testing it in game.

 

Now that Snow Globe has health, I was originally all for removing the duration. The downside though, is that some players will inevitably spam them all over the map, creating points where fellow squadmates cannot shoot through. There needs to be some way to limit the use of the power to avoid griefing. Maybe the duration can be made longer, but allow only 1 Snow Globe at a time?

 

If that's not the answer though, a base 30 seconds is too short for a health-based shield. Doubling that to 60 seconds base seems more appropriate.

 

*Edit: Or perhaps change player Snow Globes to the NPC Leader version, where it's mobile and centered on the player?

Edited March 3, 2014 by DaftMeat

[spacedkadet]

Those 2 changes would be great but if you remove the timer (please do) then when a new is cast the current one should die like lokis decoy. 

 With this in place then snow globe should be about right :)

[KittyDarkling]

Here we go again...

 

I would say Dev's are definitely going in the right direction and the armour bonus would definitely make it more interesting. Both should be implemented for sure. It would restore some faith in the community too.

 

However, I am going to bring it up even though I don't want to - how many globes are we going to be restricted in using? I would say 3 even 4 sounds reasonable. I mention it because if not we'll get globe chaos throughout the battlefield and it'll do more harm than good so I see this feature being implemented eventually. Unless once you cast another after your final, the first one ever casted instantly disappears but either way, still a limit of 3/4 would fit nicely with it. Makes sense now that I think about it.

 

Anyways...

 

    I'm glad this issue was jumped on quickly,  a limit of 3-4 does sound reasonable.

 

For Snow-Globe, both of those changes sound good. Due to the change however I really feel a graphical update will be needed to accurately reflects how much damage the snow globe has taken. This could be done with cracks appearing over the surface, sounds depicting it breaking, and it becoming harder to see through when it becomes damaged enough (like 20% health).

 

    While Frost's under the knife I'd say fix up his 1. It's been a while (though still post update) that I've played with it, but It still needs to be fixed up quite a bit before it deserves a slot.

 

 

 

    EDIT: Also I like the idea floating around about his 1 repairing his globe! Maybe it could work like this. "while inside your snow globe if you use you're 1 it will repair your snow globe, if you're outside your snow globe, it will function as it does now.

Edited March 3, 2014 by KittyDarkling

[Brahmastra]

Duration timer removed could work.. But then there would be globes everywhere..

 

>inb4 funpolice.

[CyberneticSaturn]

Having armor boost the damage resist is an interesting idea and removing duration is nice too.  I'd say my main concern would be how many globes can you have at once?  Right now, when things are really crazy, you can layer snowglobes so that they don't immediately pop while you're rezzing someone or are under heavy fire.  If the boost to duration ends up making it so you can only summon one globe at a time the change may end up being a net nerf.

[Ziegrif]

Removing Duration and adding the armor give frost the chance to be Offense and Defense at the same time without gimping Offense Powers by taking Duration mods.

 

But how exactly will armor affect the health of the globe? How much we talking with maximum armor? Of course making Armor useful for Frost would give some use for armor mods for other frames. Nowadays only one really benefiting from armor is Valkyr.

 

So yeah sounds good to me.

[Wallace24]

If the globe can be killed, then it shouldn't be able to be killed by a timer.

pretty much this^ that's my only thought on the matter. guess I'll have to break out frost prime for some testing these next couple days, try to get some good feedback going. for now, I'll just comment from the sideline

 

I can now say again; "FROST PRIME MASTER RACE"

not yet, but we're getting there

 

If you do that, allow us to shoot through the globe. Because if there will be tons and tons of globes that have to expire before we can shoot that area, that wont help.

that is actually a reasonable concern. I wouldn't say we should be able to damage our own snow globes. relying on enemies to take out rogue snowglobes may not be the best way to deal with it. but if only the frost can remove them, then it doesn't matter either way. my concern is snowglobe trolls, who could potentially litter a battlefield with snowglobes, making it impossible to shoot at enemies as they're running through the frosty field. without the duration, those globes could be up for a while, especially if the enemies don't shoot the globes

 

that gave me a thought, what happens to the snowglobe against infested? without a duration timer, would they stay up indefinitely? then a field of snowglobes is definitely a real possibility. and it would be extremely annoying. so my biggest concern now is infested interactions with the snow globe. the "if health, then no duration" seems to be a good solution to the current issues, but this new issue will then arise

[Egg_Chen]

Duration has to go, there should be no debate!

 

Health only globes allow us to build for power, making Frost's other powers more useful as well, and you wanted him to not be a one trick pony!

Duration helps none of his other powers in reality, let us spec him for power and efficiency.

 

Also, Armor, OK, if it is as well as removing the timer.

Edit: As others have pointed out, maybe a cap on the number though.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Egg_Chen

[XenosInfinity]

Removing the duration timer would be a big help but make it extremely easy for griefers to use the globes to block their allies' shots.

 

What about if they automatically melted if the Frost went too far away from the globe's location? Or just make them centred on the Frost and move around with their owner the way Leader globes do. I'd prefer it if they intersected with the floor, though, since that would give us more distance in the shield at the base.

[ROSING]

Make the projectile for freeze larger and/or track targets your crosshair is on, so make it a targeting ability (i.e., you must have a target to use the ability), and also give it an AoE cold proc in addition to freezing the target. It is too unforgiving for less than perfect aim, it should be one of those abilities you can use to temporarily restrain the highest threat in the group to deal with others first.

In a similar fashion to Ember's accelerant, targets frozen from Freeze or Avalanche should be more susceptible to cold damage.

Edited March 3, 2014 by ROSING

[Gigatron-Prime]

Take away the timer. Make HP and strength of the shield comparable to Rhino's Iron Skin or more.

[Grimfrost]

- I love Frost, but i dont see why one should be able to do more than one globe at the time.

- Adding armor would make much sense.

- Ally shot-trough globe would decrese "frost-hatred" in game. Of this I approve.

Edit:
- Remove timer if the above put in to use

Edited March 3, 2014 by Grimfrost

[Althix]

Rebecca here is the thing. If you want to balance snowglobe on level of 15 waves of T3D or 15 OT. Current snowglobe is fine.

 

If you wanna make it viable during entire game, and by that i mean artificial end game - bring old snowglobe back.

[Brasten]

Dev has expressed the following considerations in the continued balancing of his skills, particularly Snow Globe:

 

1) Have the Armor value apply to health of the Snow Globe

2) Remove Duration timer from Snow Globe

1) .... No. Armor remains functionally useless at the levels of play that make the current Snow Globe impractical. This holds especially true for Frosts armor. Go back and look at issues with Valkyr and her Armor, and how much it has to be buffed (both by you, and by the use mods/powers) for it be even close to functional. This is BAD for balancing out Snow Globe in lower level play. Armor will be MORE useful at lower levels than at HIGHER levels. It won't fix the PROBLEM with Snow Globw, that it is TRASH and DOES NOT scale into HIGHER level play. Virtually everything level 30 and below works... mostly.

2) Which is just spam Globe over and over again to layer down more and more HP. Which again doesn't do anything to address the problem of it just not being able to scale past whatever balance point you set on its HP.

Capping incoming damage creates a controllable top end of how much damage it can take before it breaks. This has 0 impact on low level play (unlike Armor) and only starts functioning at high levels of play. Yes a damage cap would eventually favor lots of fast shots instead of single big hits, however at later levels of play that adds another level of strategy. At the really high levels you turn the HP pool into a "number of hits before break" pool that will eventually become static as even the weakest enemy damage passes the Cap. From that point on the scaling of Snow Globe becomes predictable (but not invulnerable) and remains at the same level of usefulness.

I'll bold this part:

ARMOR = MORE EFFECTIVE HP

If you give it Armor, all you're really doing is just giving it more HP. That will not fix the problem.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Brasten