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Melee 2.0 And Stances: What It Should Have Been


DiabolusUrsus
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First, I would like to establish a few things. 

 

1. This is not a thread for complaining about stance drop rates and accessibility. That's another issue entirely, and I don't want to hear about it here.

 

2. I have not tested every stance on every grip, so if any stance out there that I do not specifically mention fits what I'm describing, great. Kudos. Not every stance does, however, so my criticism should still stand. 

 

3. I don't want to hear criticisms of Melee 2.0 in general, either. I'm not trying to deconstruct the system; I'm trying to point out what needs to be nudged into place to make it function as an integrated part of Warframe. 

 

I have used three stances: Sundering Weave, Iron Phoenix, and Tranquil Cleave.

 

The first thing I noticed is that none of the combos introduced by these stances are actually worth anything, provided your weapon is modded optimally for the enemies you are fighting. They are all aimed at hitting one enemy with the full combo, when the enemy is dead by the time the first or second strike lands. The problem with this is that because the combos are meant for hitting one enemy, they are poorly adapted to hitting other enemies. This makes the basic looping attack of Machetes, Longswords, and Katanas more properly adapted to Warframe's gameplay flow. Boring by comparison, but more properly adapted. 

So, here's what I would have done differently. 

 

1. Stances do not introduce a basic EEE combo. There is no reason to use any of the ones I've tried out, and they interrupt the looping attacks that are well-suited to attacking groups of enemies. Removing EEE combos allows for EEEEEEEEEEE-ad infinitum, so that stances do not actually destroy the flow of combat. Don't have the maneuvering room to pull off a combo? EEE still works for you. 
 

Instead, stances function as animation shifts these change the typical swing orientation and pacing of the weapon so that it covers areas otherwise difficult to strike using the basic stance, and alter's the weapons damage properties to a slight degree. For example, Iron Phoenix would change a longsword's basic V-shaped swing pattern into a sequence of vertical or steep diagonal cuts that do not cover as wide of an area, but deal increased damage to targets directly in front of the player. Crimson Dervish, on the other hand, would shift the longsword's swings into wider horizontal strokes capable of hitting more enemies but dealing slightly less damage. 

 

This would be complimented by the new executed combos (e.g. EE pause EEEE.): 

 

2. Executed combos can fill a variety of roles. They can extend the range of a weapon's attacks, offer defense-oriented states during attacks, and perhaps most importantly, boost the combo-counter's hit-count. Let's go through a few examples.

Iron Phoenix's "Taking Flight" now increases its attack range by 1.5x, and its final knockback strike sends enemies in a 90 degree arc in front of the player flying backwards (no additional damage, just CC.) It's now worth pulling off, even if the first enemy you hit dies after the first stroke. 

Sundering Weave's EEEEE Hold E now causes the player to deflect attacks from all directions during the quick, inaccurate dash forward. Now it's useful even when it doesn't hit anything 90% of the time, due to the fact that enemies rarely idle at the end of its dash range, and the machete's abysmal lack of range.

 

Tranquil Cleave's "Breathless Lunge" (more on this later.) now locks on to the first enemy it hits, and drastically reduces the katana's damage per strike, meaning that every attack stands a decent chance of connecting, with damage returning to normal for the final stroke. This means the combo is useful for boosting the weapon's combo counter, and subsequent damage output. This makes up for the increased amount of time it takes to finish off a single enemy, and the vulnerability of the player while executing the combo. 

A particularly good example of what I'm talking about here is Dante's "Million Stab" move from Devil May Cry 4, shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTx2HjC8K3w

I know that Warframe isn't Devil May Cry, but it serves to illustrate a point. "Million Stab" is literally incapable of killing an enemy. You can hit an enemy with Million Stab for thirty minutes if you're good enough at looping other nonlethal combos, but the damage from the combo is not applied until the final "Stinger" stroke shown at the end. This is how multi-hit combos aimed at increasing the hit counter should function, making the time spent on executing them worth it. 

 

3. Get rid of the superfluous flips. Tranquil Cleave is particularly guilty of this. You guys know time is of the essence during Warframe gameplay. You cut down "Taking Flight's" triple slash to a single one for that reason. Flips, jumps, rolls, cartwheels and the like have no place in combos outside of moving the player into a better position to strike the next enemy. When we're using melee combos, we're looking at the cool slashing effects, not the character flipping. We get enough of that just moving around in the game, and it interrupts otherwise effective attacks in an obnoxious manner. Go ahead and keep some combos with flips and rolls, but make them serve the purpose of helping players weave through crowds of enemies while still attacking, similar to what you can accomplish with well-timed slide attacks. 

 

4. Make stances alter slide, wall, finisher, riposte and jump attack animations as well. Not significantly change their function, but alter them. Perhaps make slide and wall attacks easier to land, or add hits to weapons with very small jump AOE.  Change the longsword riposte-stab to a simple slash, or the katana's double-slash into an execution decapitation. Slight addition of function where there is none, and aesthetic customization where there is. 

 

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to make melee combat look fancy and amazing. The problem is that the fancy and amazing attacks have been implemented in a way that makes them impractical to use, too difficult to pull off, and overall a poor investment of time during gameplay. The fanciest combo in the world is no fun when it doesn't hit anything. 

 

Which brings me to my feedback specifically for the Nikana. It is an amazing weapon that plays into the dreams of a katana-junkie like me. It's basic horizontal slashing looks really drab, but it's supremely effective for cutting through blobs of enemies with ease. Still, it's not much like using a katana, which is what I really hoped adding Tranquil Cleave would change. 

I practice Kendo. I've been going at it for almost five years. I've spent a decent amount of time observing Kenjutsu, which is the more traditional modern adaptation of samurai techniques, as well. I would like to start off by saying that from what I have seen of both Kendo and Kenjutsu, there is not one independently used horizontal strike. Thrusts are even rarer. The most basic attack in Kendo is a vertical strike to the head. Strikes to the wrists are vertical. Even the cut to the torso is closer to vertical in that it comes down at a 45-degree angle. That is what it feels like to swing a katana. it is a cutting weapon, so please consider making its moveset reflect such. 

 

In sum, combos are a welcome addition to melee gameplay. However, you need to keep in mind that players are rarely tasked with attacking singular enemies, and are instead required to attack whole groups. As such, it is necessary to gear combos towards maintaining a fluid flow of melee combat that allows players to quickly switch between targets or hit greater numbers of enemies at a time. Single-target melee combos need specific benefits to make them worthwhile. Different stances should cater to different aesthetic styles. Stances should make melee weapons feel more efficient, in addition to more fancy. The mechanics I have suggested can most likely be easily adapted to the existing animations that shipped with Melee 2.0. Some slight adjustments need to be made to the timing of melee combo execution so that different combos can be more easily strung together, but I am overall optimistic about your ability to swiftly and significantly improve the existing system into something worth grinding mods for. 

 

That said, blocking, hit-limit restrictions, and other improvements were all executed extremely well. The hit-counter cooldown period might need a slight extension, but Melee 2.0 has otherwise been an extremely solid contribution to melee gameplay in Warframe. I hope the time I have taken to give this feedback serves you well. I will likely add more feedback to this as I acquire and experiment with more stances. 

PS: Reach needs a serious buff. It's hardly noticeable on most weapons. Change it into a flat bonus in weapon length that varies from weapon to weapon (no longsword-length daggers) that is represented by an extended weapon swing trail. This in and of itself will likely go a long way towards making combos easier to use against groups of enemies. 

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I'd also like a quickswap to a a pistol mid-combo to assist in crowd control, and perhaps transitional animations to attacking other nearby enemies (think the Prince's flips between enemies in Sands of Time).

 

Having quick access to a firearm would be a substantial improvement to dedicated melee mode, though that raises some issues with how powerful some of the secondaries are. Still, it could mesh really well with the flow of combat, and look really cool, so I'm totally in support of that. The "transitional animations" between enemies are exactly what I'm talking about when I mention the "superfluous flips" and rolls I've seen in some of the combos. They serve literally no purpose, and I think they should serve the purpose you mentioned in its entirety. We need to attack groups of enemies, so help us do that, DE.

 

I agree with every point of yours. Honestly, I've been trying to sell every stance mod I've acquired instead of actually using them.

 

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reading through my massive blob of text. Melee is one of my favorite aspects of Warframe, and I care quite a bit about improving it. (Still, I'm trying not to come off as too passionate or excitable.) I was speaking to one of my friends, and he helped me stumble onto something that sums up what I'm trying to say really nicely:

Warframe is a button-masher. It's a frenzy of shooting as quickly as possible, or mashing E to attack as many enemies in melee as quickly as you can (periodically holding E, in Melee 1.0.) Combos are a welcome addition, but they shouldn't attempt to change the button-mashing nature of melee. They should make the button-mashing more pleasant to look at and easier to use. The few places where there is a break in the mashing, the pause and hold combos, need some very specific and readily quantifiable benefits to breaking form. (Hit-counter bonuses and effective CC.) 

 

Edit: Thanks to all three of you. :D

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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Having quick access to a firearm would be a substantial improvement to dedicated melee mode, though that raises some issues with how powerful some of the secondaries are. Still, it could mesh really well with the flow of combat, and look really cool, so I'm totally in support of that. The "transitional animations" between enemies are exactly what I'm talking about when I mention the "superfluous flips" and rolls I've seen in some of the combos. They serve literally no purpose, and I think they should serve the purpose you mentioned in its entirety. We need to attack groups of enemies, so help us do that, DE.

 

 

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to reading through my massive blob of text. Melee is one of my favorite aspects of Warframe, and I care quite a bit about improving it. (Still, I'm trying not to come off as too passionate or excitable.) I was speaking to one of my friends, and he helped me stumble onto something that sums up what I'm trying to say really nicely:

Warframe is a button-masher. It's a frenzy of shooting as quickly as possible, or mashing E to attack as many enemies in melee as quickly as you can (periodically holding E, in Melee 1.0.) Combos are a welcome addition, but they shouldn't attempt to change the button-mashing nature of melee. They should make the button-mashing more pleasant to look at and easier to use. The few places where there is a break in the mashing, the pause and hold combos, need some very specific and readily quantifiable benefits to breaking form. (Hit-counter bonuses and effective CC.) 

 

Edit: Thanks to all three of you. :D

 

DE should really try out metal gear rising there aren't many combos but it's @(*()$ fun and it also makes sense there

Edited by Jun-EGT-
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Or, while we're talking about melee systems from other games, there's the Batman: Arkham Whatever series.  I feel like using the "superfluous cartwheels" as gap-closers to carry you straight to another target, maybe even extending the animation so you can guarantee a hit as long as the next victim is within a reasonable distance, would fit Warframe's gameplay model a lot better than what we have now.  There'd have to be some kind of damage reduction or accuracy mitigator while you're stuck in a transit animation, though, which is what we've been asking for out of rolls and wall-runs for a long time now anyway.  As it stands, the combos don't work on bosses, barely work on heavies, and are actively counterproductive against swarms - and most of the time, you'll be dealing with at least two of those three at once.  Under this system I feel obligated to take a polearm or other multitarget weapon just so I can clear out the inevitable mobs of Lancers and MOAs - if some stances worked better against tight clusters and others let you stun and wear down a whole room by jumping all over the place, like the OP suggested, I'd be much happier.

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DE should really try out metal gear rising there aren't many combos but it's @(*()$ fun and it also makes sense there

 

I checked out a few videos of it, and it indeed looks pretty damn cool. Some of the animations might fit into multihit combos, but they seem a little too stationary for attacking 10+ enemies at once. 

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So here's a bit of an update.

I have now acquired and tested out Reaping Spiral, and Swirling Tiger.

 

I have to say that these stances are much more polished than any of the stances I tested before, even though they each only add two combo strings. 

First, both Reclamation and Raking Flesh have near perfect loop transitions. There aren't huge, awkward pauses between attack sequences like on "Wings and Beak" and Windless Cut. This makes slashing through groups of enemies while continuing to move much more of a reasonable endeavor. Reaping Spiral is exactly the kind of fluidity I'm talking about, and something that should make its way onto each and every melee stance. It's okay to have slightly longer times between swings, (Stances that emphasize more powerful, decisive cuts should execute slower, but loop smoothly.) but there shouldn't be a noticeable interrupt between sequences.

 

Second, the flip in the Abyssal Automaton combo on Reaping Spiral is the kind of flip that should be acceptable. It's nice and fancy looking, but it has an attack attached to it. It serves a purpose, beyond simply looking cool. Breathless Lunge's flip doesn't seem to do anything. Turns and flips should only appear as part of attack swings. Iron Phoenix's Taking Flight is another example of an acceptably implemented flip. 

 

Now, on to the not-so-great stuff. 

 

While I approve of the smoothness with which Reclamation loops, it loops a little too readily. To the point that properly pausing to execute Abyssal Automaton is a little too difficult for the pacing of Warframe's combat. The combo transitions too quickly from "small enough pause that the normal EEEE combo continues" to "big enough pause that the combo starts over." 

 

Abyssal Automaton itself is also hardly worth the effort of execution. The overhead flip swing is great for hitting Ospreys, but the normal Reclamation Sequence does just as good of a job. The scythe throw looks awesome, but it either doesn't hit anything or never gets off more than one or two hits before returning. I tried out Reaping Spiral up to level 22-24 enemies, and enemies were still usually dying before my Reaper Prime ever went airborne. This is an example of the need for a Million Stab-style temporary combo damage reduction. The overhead swing and spinning scythe should not be able to kill an enemy until the last hit of the throw, and landing the overhead swing should lock on to the enemy with the scythe. You guys mentioned the scythe throw as something meant to CC and build up the hit counter on one of the livestreams, so make it actually perform that function. 

 

Swirling Tiger is by far the most well-adapted stance I have tried thus-far, but for something obviously intended for attacking crowds, I feel as though the player should be extending their arms a bit further to widen their swings. Aside from that small and preferential quibble, there's not much I can criticize beyond the "only adds two combos" bit. Good job!

 

Setting stances aside for a moment, one change that I think would substantially benefit melee combat is speeding up how fast a Warframe can move while attacking in melee. I don't mean adding back that infamous forced lunge step upon swinging a sword, I mean allowing players to attack and sprint at the same time. (Perhaps only add half the normal speed bonus from sprinting to the Warframe's walk speed while attacking.) The attack range on most melee weapons makes enemies running away from you a constant irritation when you don't quite have the stamina to use a slide attack. 

Now, on to my personal aesthetic complaints.

 

Please, please, please allow us to disable elemental visual effects on our melee weapons. I'm sick of not being able to see my weapon clearly through the glare of corrosive lighting arcs, and the gas decal just looks out of place on swords. Particles clipping through the Nikana and Dragon Nikana scabbards also look terrible. You guys put a lot of work into your weapon models, so let us look at them without sacrificing initial viability, please. Furthermore, please, please, please give us a Nikana skin for the Dragon Nikana, or at least add the Nikana's color customization pattern to the Dragon Nikana's hilt and blade. It's really ugly to see what looks like a solid hunk of plastic vaguely shaped like a katana. 

I'm looking forward to finding more stances to try out. Cheers, and thanks to anyone taking the time to actually read this feedback. 

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+1 here, agree with you especially your remarks regarding the feel and practicality of combos.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond! If you or anyone else has stances I haven't tried out yet, please weigh in! I don't want to resort to bumping, but I'm dismayed at how quickly this gets buried under "nerf this, buff that" threads. I can only acquire stances so quickly! Thanks for helping keep this afloat. 

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Swirling Tiger is by far the most well-adapted stance I have tried thus-far, but for something obviously intended for attacking crowds, I feel as though the player should be extending their arms a bit further to widen their swings. Aside from that small and preferential quibble, there's not much I can criticize beyond the "only adds two combos" bit. Good job!

 

I am so happy that I got tiger so early literaly my 2nd stance it has revived the heatswords for me

I love the blender of the" EE pause E" by cutting of the combo early I am rewarded with more slashes an amazing blender of bits and peices of the enemies

If I go alittle further "EE pause EEEE" I am given a spin dash that can be used to catch up with enemys who where running away and a FIRE EXPLOSION with the heatswords that gives a 50% proc chance or something feels like 80% i might be lucky

 

The rest of the stances I have tried fail to give me the freedom I feel like I get from this combo but I have fallen in love with it SO HARD I bought the dangly bits and dual heatsword forest skin <3 OH MY WORD I hope the other combos are made this lovely

Edited by MoyuTheMedic
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Going to have to add my appreciation for the Swirling Tiger stance as well. Was the second stance I got that I could actually use (have about 4 stances for weapons I don't actually have >.<) And I must say i don't think I'll be using anything but dual sword types for a while, Tiger is stupidly satisfying, I love  how I can aim the charge near the end of the longer combo to jump to another group of enemies.

 

The other stance I've gotten to try out is the Rending Crane for axes. It's decent, the ability to mix a ground slam aoe knockdown combo into the attack rotation is nice but at least with my Scindo I'm pretty sure Crane's combos are actually slower and smaller AoE than the default Scindo attacks so I'm kind of "meh" on that one.

 

Also am I the only one who feels it's kind of stupid how both single sword stances are rare mods? Newbies should have a decent chance of getting a stance for their skanas imo. 

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Going to have to add my appreciation for the Swirling Tiger stance as well. Was the second stance I got that I could actually use (have about 4 stances for weapons I don't actually have >.<) And I must say i don't think I'll be using anything but dual sword types for a while, Tiger is stupidly satisfying, I love  how I can aim the charge near the end of the longer combo to jump to another group of enemies.

 

The other stance I've gotten to try out is the Rending Crane for axes. It's decent, the ability to mix a ground slam aoe knockdown combo into the attack rotation is nice but at least with my Scindo I'm pretty sure Crane's combos are actually slower and smaller AoE than the default Scindo attacks so I'm kind of "meh" on that one.

 

Also am I the only one who feels it's kind of stupid how both single sword stances are rare mods? Newbies should have a decent chance of getting a stance for their skanas imo. 

 

the iron phoenix isnt even that good it should be given out in the tutorial lol

It is just soooo basic and just a side grade to spaming normal E without a stance and now the skana is the stronger out of the 3 beginner weapons

Edited by MoyuTheMedic
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since you all have fun with swirling tiger, just keep it no matter what, the crossing snakes are just plainly boring and somehow it feels like it hits less and overall the animation is somewhat awkward, basically because it doesn't feel "snakish" at all, the stance doesn't match saryn at all

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Just picked up Coiling Viper Burning Wasp (derp) for whips, gonna have to wait on the Scoliac to build. Looking forward to trying that out.

Swirling Tiger is definitely my favorite stance to use at the moment. It fits the flow of combat perfectly. Sure, not all stances should match its aesthetic style, but all stances should match its effectiveness. For example, Iron Phoenix should have slower, more decisive strikes, but make use of at least one or two combos that offer looping multi-hit counter-boosts. I'd really like for "Taking Flight" to be manually extendable, where the spinning overhead slash continues for as long as the player continues pressing E, maybe up to 5 times. This would make Iron Phoenix more geared towards building up damage multipliers for taking out higher-leveled mobs. 

Continued use of the stances, however, has given me a few additional inspirations. First, stances should affect the combo-counter cooldown time. Stances that feature more counter-stacking combos should have shorter cooldowns (roughly how long it takes for the combo to decay currently,) and stances that do not feature counter-stacking combos should have longer cooldowns to allow players to move between crowds. Lastly, single-target combos should give players immunity to CC effects for their duration. If part of the risk is vulnerability inherent to counter-stacking a single enemy in the midst of a crowd, you should reliably reap the benefits of your investment, even if a Grineer Heavy or Shield Lancer happens by. 

 

Lastly, I have to say I am growing sadder with the Nikana moveset by the day. I love the weapon. It's beautiful. But the reach of its attacks does not fit the length of the blade, and its attacks aren't smooth enough to execute. It needs a major facelift. This could go one of two ways: Faster, more fluid attacks with wider reach a la Vergil's Iai-inspired strikes, or more measured, decisive cuts a la actual Kenjutsu. Personally, I'm favoring going with the second option for Tranquil Cleave, and adding another katana stance that implements the first. Higher concentrated damage output on one stance, and adaptive crowd control on the other. I feel like most stances should alternate these basic functions on all grip types. 

 

Narrower stances focus on stacking combo hits, where they take a little while to get going but start mowing through even heavier mobs after accumulating a snowball effect, and wider stances are more immediately useful against fodder mobs. 

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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My greatest problem with the new system is how shallow and forced the combos are. I mean they are essentially pressing the same button - most of the time.

 

It wouldn't have hurt even if we take console players into consideration to make combos like:

 

Combo Über dog-funky slash storm: Melee, Melee, Left+Melee, Right+Melee or something.

That way much more control and way more diverse combos could have been achieved.

 

Again, the current mechanic for button press registration is weird. To a certain extent you can press a few buttons faster than the animation and it does more than one slash but won't do all your commands, only 2-3 of them. Either do it all (which would be bad when you want to stop), or force the players to actually time the button presses and register them properly. Like pressing them just a tad before the last attack-animation ends would be perfect.

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Really good feedback, you basically hit on all of my own concerns and pretty much make all the suggestions I was going to make, so very much agreed.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't be too much work for DE to somewhat separate the 'special moves' and the looping attacks to allow players more freedom in adapting their combos to suit the situation. Perhaps bring back the charge attack input?

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My greatest problem with the new system is how shallow and forced the combos are. I mean they are essentially pressing the same button - most of the time.

 

It wouldn't have hurt even if we take console players into consideration to make combos like:

 

Combo Über dog-funky slash storm: Melee, Melee, Left+Melee, Right+Melee or something.

That way much more control and way more diverse combos could have been achieved.

 

Again, the current mechanic for button press registration is weird. To a certain extent you can press a few buttons faster than the animation and it does more than one slash but won't do all your commands, only 2-3 of them. Either do it all (which would be bad when you want to stop), or force the players to actually time the button presses and register them properly. Like pressing them just a tad before the last attack-animation ends would be perfect.

 

I have to agree on pretty much all counts, here. I was surprised that they didn't go with a basic variation of light and heavy strikes (E for light, Left Click for heavy.) and alternate between them for the necessary interrupts. (e.g. EE LeftClick EEEE rather than EE Pause EEEE) That system seems much less prone to suffering from input lag or host-client issues. At least one of my friends can't pull off most of his combos because of the framerates he gets most of the time. A non-pause-oriented system would alleviate that issue somewhat.

 

+1000 to polishing up the input responsiveness a bit. That said, I want to once again caution against getting too involved in combos. The way Warframe is set up lends itself to nothing but EEEEEEEEE, not skillfully executed and concentrated attacks. This is mostly on account of how the enemy AI behaves. A grineer lancer is more likely to try to open up distance if not already trying to elbow the player than continue to attack in melee. This makes sense because it has a gun. Most games with extensive combos - Devil May Cry, God of War, etc. - primarily feature enemies that readily engage in melee. Warframe combos need to be focused on helping the player keep up with enemies that are moving around and finish them quickly.

 

Really good feedback, you basically hit on all of my own concerns and pretty much make all the suggestions I was going to make, so very much agreed.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't be too much work for DE to somewhat separate the 'special moves' and the looping attacks to allow players more freedom in adapting their combos to suit the situation. Perhaps bring back the charge attack input?

 

When melee 2.0 first started out, I expected it to essentially be charge attacks with varying animations to make them less boring. I think the ideal system I have in my head would be best described as was above, with the exception being that holding down E or the LMB would delay the next strike a bit. It might afford slightly increased damage per strike, but for the most part it would allow players to begin attacking but hold off just long enough that they can continue to close with an enemy and attack when they can connect. Looping attacks on E. Slower, more powerful looping attacks on LMB. Alternate between the two for specific combos.

Still, unless DE is really open to some drastic feedback, I suppose we'll have to make do with Channeling and E strikes. I saw a suggestion for slaving the R button to an alternate attack, which would work rather nicely. What I'd REALLY like to see, however, is channeling moved to a toggle through R, and have block be given the properties it was initially advertised with. A true timed block for accessing the blocking bonuses afforded by channeling (Resistance to pretty much all CC and the opportunity for a parry.)

For example - holding block negates incoming enemy fire as it does now, and gives an inherent +50% chance to resist knockdown effects. Auxiliary debuffs like on the Ancient Disruptor's energy drain or staggering elbows are resisted entirely. Blocking for 0.5 seconds or less before being hit with an attack raises the knockdown resist chance to 100%. The enemy has a chance of being opened for a riposte. Successfully parrying an enemy attack resets the parry timer to 0.3 seconds. This is important because it allows players to avoid being trolled by a second, third, or even fourth shield lancer attacking in succession, or those instances where there are two Heavy Gunners next to each other.

 

As it is now, Channel-blocking completely negates radial blasts and shield bashes, which is great, but the unresponsiveness of blocking and channeling at the same time makes forgoing all other activity in order to block a necessity. That's kind of tedious and disengaging after a while. The most annoying attacks are actually fairly telegraphed. I know 0.5 seconds is very forgiving as far as timed blocking goes, but Warframe is hardly a game that focuses on skillful parrying, and the nature of its network connections discourages any "hardcore" skill-based inputs. It's an arcade-style game, so keep it that way.

The last thing that needs to happen is rolling of any sort needs some invulnerability frames added to it. Moddable invulnerability frames, even. And I mean all rolling, not just Shift rolls. Even those annoying "I'm falling from slightly higher than usual, so I'm gonna roll even though I'm in a suit of power armor and don't suffer fall damage" rolls. This makes how difficult it is to stay on your feet less irritating, and even benefits gunplay a bit. The biggest thing I can see this alleviating is the ridiculous AOE on Napalm and Bombard projectiles that extends far past the particle effects shown and ignores solid objects.

PS: Why is Reflection still not a melee mod? I can understand Reflex Guard, but Parry was moved to a more sensible place. Why not Reflection as well?

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snip

 

yeah blocking has a very long animation that takes soooo long to activate and slashes negate it i would like to see blocking negate attacks and have a snapier animation speed with a lag preventing you from attacking right out of a block allowing us to set up our own tricks giving us more freedom

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To be honest it feels like they thought "Well...we could rework the whole system and actually give players some cool, fluent ninja-style fighting....oooor we could save lots of moneyz and time and just add mods, that will rename the very same move their already had before the update into "Uberdeath Storm Annihilation" - if its a slide attack and "Deathstar Crushdown Carnage" if its a jump attack...will sure keep the 12yo entertained and we still can use the one uselessly complicated and stiff new combo that will make up for a trailer"

 

Most combos dont give you anything. In Devil May Cry or Darksiders such combos gave you bonus damage or massive staggery and opponents came sometimes in small groups or even solo, challenging your skills beyond "press button, wait until everything is dead" aka Synapse. Here they are just useless, time consuming, distracting and overall not needed in any way.

 

Sure, we want cool ninja moves, but we dont want cool but useless ninja moves. I dont see any reason to use melee at all anymore. First off i used to run around with Galatine, which became weaker than most other weapons. Secondly - energy eating weapons? Really? Thats like a gun that shoots yourself before firing at an enemy. And all the new mods increase the energy consumption even more. You can loose more energy per hit than some abilities use. Thats insane, utterly insane.

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To be honest it feels like they thought "Well...we could rework the whole system and actually give players some cool, fluent ninja-style fighting....oooor we could save lots of moneyz and time and just add mods, that will rename the very same move their already had before the update into "Uberdeath Storm Annihilation" - if its a slide attack and "Deathstar Crushdown Carnage" if its a jump attack...will sure keep the 12yo entertained and we still can use the one uselessly complicated and stiff new combo that will make up for a trailer"

 

Most combos dont give you anything. In Devil May Cry or Darksiders such combos gave you bonus damage or massive staggery and opponents came sometimes in small groups or even solo, challenging your skills beyond "press button, wait until everything is dead" aka Synapse. Here they are just useless, time consuming, distracting and overall not needed in any way.

 

Sure, we want cool ninja moves, but we dont want cool but useless ninja moves. I dont see any reason to use melee at all anymore. First off i used to run around with Galatine, which became weaker than most other weapons. Secondly - energy eating weapons? Really? Thats like a gun that shoots yourself before firing at an enemy. And all the new mods increase the energy consumption even more. You can loose more energy per hit than some abilities use. Thats insane, utterly insane.

 

I'm guessing that you don't, at least, disagree with anything I've said? I'd definitely like to see altered animations for slide and jump attacks packaged with stances.

 

Agreed. I think they'd do well as providing a damage buff through building the hit-counter and its multiplier, though.

 

Absolutely. I do still have a use for melee, though, as it is largely more defensive than gunplay is at this point, what with blocking and such. I think Channeling was executed reasonably well, too, though it definitely has some room for improvement. Most of the mods that decrease channeling efficiency are actually not necessarily meant to be used with channeling. Crits, status procs, and stamina regen are perfectly applicable to normal melee. It stands to reason that when using those mods, you would use channeling primarily for its knockdown resisting properties when blocking.

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Yeah, weapons that just go straight forward are harder on the player because it leaves several enemies not touched. Fractured Wind with the Furax is really hard to put to use on basic frames, one need to build to cover the fact that you are leaving a lot of people not being touched. Other weapons like the Scindo, Scythes, and whips that have wide switch are way easier on everything.

 

This probably means that certain weapons are better for certain missions.

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This probably means that certain weapons are better for certain missions.

I'd agree more with this if there were more missions oriented towards single targets, and if a number of overhauled bosses weren't practically immune to melee. Narrow stances don't even have higher damage going for them as a benefit.

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I'd agree more with this if there were more missions oriented towards single targets, and if a number of overhauled bosses weren't practically immune to melee. Narrow stances don't even have higher damage going for them as a benefit.

 

Well, some of these weapons were made during a time where this game was less Dynasty Warriors and there werent tsunamis of enemies. Maybe in the future they can start adding solo-type missions where there are less enemies and these are put to use.

 

And with the Furax i did build it for crit damage so i could take people down faster. I dont know the stats of other similar weapons but maybe weapons are more single target can get adjusted to be more crit oriented to cover some of the disadvantages.

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