Buff Dragon Nikana (Now With A Little Math And Videos)

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Before we start, why am I calling for buffs? The Dragon Nikana is my favorite weapon but it is hard to enjoy when you can switch to a superior weapon and have a much more enjoyable time. This doesn't even account for the fact that ranged weapons still blow melee out of the water, as ranged weaponry are low risk high reward and melee is high risk mediocre reward (Unless you 24/7 stealth in which case it's low risk high reward for both).

 

" I like Dragon Nikanas no matter what"

- You'll like it more if it's on par with the top melee weapons currently out, which aren't even overpowered (which also aren't even significantly better than top tier ranged weaponry). Unless you stealth but 24/7 stealth op.

 

"85 Base damage hur dur"

- Base damage isn't all that modifies your final damage. Stances/Combo damage make a huge difference, as you'll see in the video later.

 

"My Dragon Nikana can kill infested/mow down enemies great it's fine as it is"

- You know what kills them even better by a SIGNIFICANT amount? The other top tier mele weapons; Dakra Prime, Dual Ichors, which also happen to be able to copter very well, something nikanas cannot do. Did I mention the ease at which you kill these enemies are even easier with ranged weapons? As a mastery 8 weapon, it deserves better. BTW infested are the easiest to kill.

 

Go solo some T3 Exterminates melee only without using perma stealth/invulnerability with the Dragon Nikana. Then try again with the same build on Dakra Prime, Dual Ichors, then try again with ranged weaponry. Then finally try one last time with using ultimates like molecular prime. If you think the effectiveness is even remotely equal, then you're lying out your &#!.

 

Video proof of Dakra Prime damage output vs Dragon Nikana Damage output

 

Screenshots for some really crappy math

http://imgur.com/a/6OA5c

 

As seen in the pictures, with the same damage mods going against mercury grinneers (same mission), the Dragon Nikana consistently does 1588 damage, while Dakra Prime does 3358 damage consistantly. The Dragon Nikana here does less than HALF of Dakra's damage. "Blah Blah you didnt account for combos/attackspeed, you faked your study screenshots can be edited, ect" Watch the video linked above.

 

Don't go down and start posting about how my math is S#&$ty. I know it is, it's very hard to put numerical values for melee 2.0 as I would have to account for the melee animations for each swing, the entire melee combos, how much the combo damage does, and not to mention how much hidden multipliers are even existing in the stances. The screenshot damage is only there to give a general idea of the power difference. The video will provide much more information for what I'm talking about.

 

Finally, a last note for why the Dragon Nikana should be buffed. It has ZERO MOBILITY. For a rank 8 mastery weapon based around pure damage, and no mobility, its way outclassed by high mobility weapons that also does more damage. 

 

*Edit*
Here's a Dragon Nikana video with much better hitconfirms on the pokey thing. Same build as the one used in Nikana vs Dakra

Edited April 17, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Before you ask yes I just noticed in the video that I might not have hit all 3 strikes with the pokes, but as it stands it takes quite a while just to get to the pokes due to having to delay input instead of spamming. I'll try making another video with the same build but alot more poking.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Oh and I almost forgot, for those of you who don't agree even with the video/ect that the mastery 8 Dragon Nikana should not be buffed up to par with other top tier melee weapons, please do explain why you don't want it to get buffed. How can it possibly be a negative thing to buff this? Making other weapons obsolete is not a valid argument, it is a mastery 8 weapon so as it stands it should be one of the top melee weapons. The other melee weapons can also be buffed up to par, and even then ranged weapons are still much better so buffing weapons up to Dakra/Ichor tier will not be OP or game breaking in anyway. It will only make the game more fun to melee.

[Casardis]

About the damage: personally I would say that regular damage on it should stay the same.

 

However, if we follow the idea that it's a weapon only given and used by the masters in terms of lore, and a mastery rank 8 requirement in terms of game design, I think it's a better idea to buff considerably its channel damage and channel efficiency.

 

From a lore standpoint, a master Tenno would be more inclined to have mastery over their own powers, and therefore knows how to focus into their blade in order to make each strike overwhelmingly powerful through pure energy. From gameplay standpoint, a mastery rank 8 player most likely have useful mods such as Flow and Streamline, along with good melee mods and potato-ed weapons. Both aspects go together very well.

 

If DE did that, it will be a first step towards numbers variety. So many weapons have the same kind of numbers distribution in terms of slash/puncture/impact, attack speed, crits, status. It's as if DE's afraid to go crazy with them even though it wouldn't matter much. Doing this will also allow DE to change Nikana VS Dragon Nikana, by adding more raw damage to regular Nikana for one thing, so that there's less of the direct upgrade fiasco (which I always stand by the point that it's a bad design choice).

 

And then there's also the issue with Heavy Weapons being inferior to almost all fast weapons now. I won't go too deep into that since it's for another topic.

 

Anyway, I disagree about having higher raw damage (except maybe a higher multiplier for Tranquil Cleave; I wouldn't mind that), but I would favor a slightly more creative use of damage by making channel damage and efficiency way superior on this weapon compared to all the rest. DE added the channel system and stopped short with variety with it (probably intentional so that we can test one thing at the time).

Edited April 17, 2014 by Casardis

[TheJiggliestPoo]

About the damage: personally I would say that regular damage on it should stay the same.

 

However, if we follow the idea that it's a weapon only given and used by the masters in terms of lore, and a mastery rank 8 requirement in terms of game design, I think it's a better idea to buff considerably its channel damage and channel efficiency.

 

From a lore standpoint, a master Tenno would be more inclined to have mastery over their own powers, and therefore knows how to focus into their blade in order to make each strike overwhelmingly powerful through pure energy. From gameplay standpoint, a mastery rank 8 player most likely have useful mods such as Flow and Streamline, along with good melee mods and potato-ed weapons. Both aspects go together very well.

 

If DE did that, it will be a first step towards numbers variety. So many weapons have the same kind of numbers distribution in terms of slash/puncture/impact, attack speed, crits, status. It's as if DE's afraid to go crazy with them even though it wouldn't matter much (Twin Gremlin shoots bolts and yet has all damage types equalized; it doesn't make much sense but why should it?). And then there's also the issue with Heavy Weapons being inferior to almost all fast weapons now. I won't go too deep into that since it's for another topic.

 

Anyway, I disagree about having higher raw damage, and I would favor a slightly more creative use of damage by making channel damage and efficiency way superior on this weapon compared to all the rest. DE added the channel system and stopped short with variety with it (probably intentional so that we can test one thing at the time).

 

A stance buff first would be nice. As for channeling, its currently i think a 50% increase in damage so the channeling mods are pretty bad and inefficient. So yeah I would agree on a channel buff/channel mod buff

[Casardis]

Yeah I think it's 50% across the table, so there's no weapons who would benefit more from channeling than another in the technical sense.

 

They made a big deal about channeling, and how it's "very much Warframe," but they've offered little variety on them. All the unique channeling mods are barely worth it because it kills efficiency, and melee lacks so much maneuvers, pacing and technical forms in general that you need those energy for your Warframe abilities.

[Valiant]

I think the standard Nikana needs a buff too. I haven't been overly impressed with it. 

[TheJiggliestPoo]

I think the standard Nikana needs a buff too. I haven't been overly impressed with it. 

 

The standard one definitely needs a buff as the nikana stance is pretty mediocre, so the half stats on it compared to the dragon version really hurts

[CitShell]

Crimson Dervish stance doubles damage output of longswords, so that's pretty much why Dakra outdamages Dragon Nikana. Try using Iron Phoenix and you'll see completely different numbers.

Though there's one thing to mention: price of said huge damage boost is significant loss in mobility and speed (yes, I know you can counter it with Berserk mod) and I'm not even talking about swing speed, I'm talking about how frame starts literaly crawling whenever you try to melee stuff...it's like you're swinging some heavy two-hander.

Now I have no idea if it's intended or not, but it kinda makes sense that you're trading speed for sheer damage.

About Tranquil Cleave: it's actually pretty awkward to use compared to default, stance-less combos. Yeah Tranquil combos look cool, but standart "one-two" attack pattern is way more fluid and effective. Plus it doesn't slow you down while you're swinging Nikana on move.

About Ichors: these things were always good and Melee 2.0 just made them even better, so I'm only happy about it.

P.S. Nikanas need stance similar to Crimson Dervish - slow and wide strikes with significant damage increase.

P.P.S. Using Dakra with Crimson Dervish against infested while being under effect of invisibility is soo uncomfortable.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Re6ellion

[direcyphre]

If you're comparison is ultimately centered around a particular stance effecting damage, then what you should be advocating is a boost to Tranquil Cleave's bonuses. As it is, damage for damage the Dragon Nikana outperforms Dakra Prime. Basic math tells us this, however your comparison is only taking into account Crimson Dervish as providing hidden bonuses.

 

Nevermind the fact that most people have neither of those stances to begin with.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

If you're comparison is ultimately centered around a particular stance effecting damage, then what you should be advocating is a boost to Tranquil Cleave's bonuses. As it is, damage for damage the Dragon Nikana outperforms Dakra Prime. Basic math tells us this, however your comparison is only taking into account Crimson Dervish as providing hidden bonuses.

 

Nevermind the fact that most people have neither of those stances to begin with.

 

That is what i'm advocating

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Crimson Dervish stance doubles damage output of longswords, so that's pretty much why Dakra outdamages Dragon Nikana. Try using Iron Phoenix and you'll see completely different numbers.

Though there's one thing to mention: price of said huge damage boost is significant loss in mobility and speed (yes, I know you can counter it with Berserk mod) and I'm not even talking about swing speed, I'm talking about how frame starts literaly crawling whenever you try to melee stuff...it's like you're swinging some heavy two-hander.

Now I have no idea if it's intended or not, but it kinda makes sense that you're trading speed for sheer damage.

About Tranquil Cleave: it's actually pretty awkward to use compared to default, stance-less combos. Yeah Tranquil combos look cool, but standart "one-two" attack pattern is way more fluid and effective. Plus it doesn't slow you down while you're swinging Nikana on move.

About Ichors: these things were always good and Melee 2.0 just made them even better, so I'm only happy about it.

P.S. Nikanas need stance similar to Crimson Dervish - slow and wide strikes with significant damage increase.

P.P.S. Using Dakra with Crimson Dervish against infested while being under effect of invisibility is soo uncomfortable.

I know, thats why I used crimson dervish. It also outclasses its counterpart stance. I agree with the buff suggestions, its what I'm advocating, and since the Nikana only has one stance, it is its core.

Edited April 17, 2014 by TheJiggliestPoo

[Archistopheles]

Poo... I want to thank you for this thread.

 

This has been a joy to read.

[TheJiggliestPoo]

Poo... I want to thank you for this thread.

 

This has been a joy to read.

 

:D

[VKhaun]

Finally, a last note for why the Dragon Nikana should be buffed. It has ZERO MOBILITY. For a rank 8 mastery weapon based around pure damage, and no mobility, its way outclassed by high mobility weapons that also does more damage.

 

 

based around pure damage, and no mobility

 

When did DE say that? They didn't AFAIK. I appreciate that you're trying to be constructive, but all you've done is prove your own assumptions to be incorrect.

 

If Dakra Prime is a high mobility weapon with a high DPS combo then obviously it's an aggressive one. What is a weapon that's less mobile, higher base* damage, and comes with a D polarity? - Does Dakra do more damage on Finishers? Base damage of the Dragon Nikana would make me think not but there could be modifiers behind the scenes that make Katanas do more (or less)? Does Dakra finish attacks and start blocking as quickly?

 

You're using a flawed metric by just comparing how quickly you hack down one enemy. That's not the only merit to a melee weapon, and it's not a flaw in the Dragon Nikana if that's not it's intended specialty.

Edited April 17, 2014 by VKhaun

[Dalu__Ka]

Have you even seen the slide spin damage? I think not, or you wouldn't have made this thread.

Your mobility argument is not convincing, but I guess that depends more on play style.

 

And saying you want it buffed just because it is your favorite, is kind of a weak reason. If DE balanced around this, then every weapon would be buffed, until they are either all the same, or we have a power creep extravaganza the likes no one has ever seen before.

 

Time for a 3th thread?

Edited April 17, 2014 by Tenn00b

[Casardis]

Have you even seen the slide spin damage?

 

I'm not necessarily agreeing with TC here (I even suggested an alternative). However, what's the point of focusing on spin attacks if they made a stance specifically for this unique weapon?

[ra9una]

Maybe the dragon nikana does need a buff, but the so do many other end game melee weapons.

[WARLOCKE]

bro, here is why the Dakra Prime is better than the dragon katana.

 

dakra is a pirate sword. The katana is a samurai sword.

 

Now, withthis in mind we add in some well known facts.

1)Samurai are weak. 

2)Pirates are stronk.

 

Pirates > japan.

 

So now you know.

[Darkmoone1]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with TC here (I even suggested an alternative). However, what's the point of focusing on spin attacks if they made a stance specifically for this unique weapon?

I wouldn't say focusing spin attacks, but I think what he meant was incorporating spin attacks into your playstyle. Not using them all the time, but not neglecting them.

[gamefreak9149]

Will have to watch videos later during my break before I put any real criticism or agreement about your statements. This post just helps since now I have a easy link to find the videos from.

[OblivionNecroninja]

It sounds to me like what you REALLY want is a buff for Ninkana Stances. I reccommend asking for that instead; people will probably respond better to that than to a request to buff one of the best (numerically speaking) melee weapons around.

[IAmAMan]

This is how I feel when I am playing whit the dragon nikana 









AND THIS is how I feel when I play whit any other mele

[SilentSleep]

This is how I feel when I am playing whit the dragon nikana 

AND THIS is how I feel when I play whit any other mele

Thanks for your vital contributions to this thread. :)

[Evanescent]

bro, here is why the Dakra Prime is better than the dragon katana.

 

dakra is a pirate sword. The katana is a samurai sword.

 

Now, withthis in mind we add in some well known facts.

1)Samurai are weak. 

2)Pirates are stronk.

 

Pirates > japan.

 

So now you know.

 My 2700+ dmg per swing Dragon Nikana laughs at this foolishness. Samurai>Pirate everytime!