Slide Attack Irregularities - Tests And Suggestions (Reworked)

[Khunvyel]

ATTENTION: This topic is not like it was before, I've taken the basic idea but reworked it completely, hopefully to give everyone a better understanding and to propose my thoughts in a more constructive - and readable - manner.

 

Slide attack movements are too inconsistent and different among all melee weapons, it makes connecting this attack to enemies a different beast to tame every other weapon type, up to the point where it is a pain to use. The problem with momentum is just an extra con. However, this is only one half of the problem, the other is shortcutting tremendous distances with it, and while I know many people cannot live without that, it beckons question: if we fix slide attack movement, what ELSE do we need to fix? This can be broken down into four steps:

• Assessing the problems with the attack itself
• Finding the weird gain and focus point of momentum. (which I found, as you will read)
• Questioning why using an attack as a travel method is a thing
• Balancing / fixing suggestions to slide attack movements. (this COULD be the step you want to skip to, if anything)

It seems that U13 built in the lost percentage of Fury into the weapon speed itself in terms of slide attacks. While this sounds like it evens out in the end, it doesn't. 60% of 100 is less than 30% of 130 . Overall, speed levels are too much now, more chaotic than before. Mind you, I can control them, and many others can too, but why should I continue adapting to a broken system? This is like needing to slow down your car with careful use of the handbrake because the regular foot-break is shot. Sure it works, kinda, but that is not how it is supposed to.

 

   1) Assessing the problems with the attack itself

Momentum behaves different depending on weapon type. It is not as simple as "there are various degrees of coptering". Slide attack is a valid combat move, now it only needs to be brought in line with ALL weapon types. There is a direct relation to how well a weapon's slide attack can be controlled and the control of the same areal speeding. Note I say "controlled", not "how fast can it go." This doesn't mean only heavy weapons suck. On the contrary. Those weapons which are considered superior in terms of travel, have the same innate issues when using this as an actual combat maneuver. Too fast, too uncontrolled.

So what is the actual problem with the attack? Individual and inconsistent application of momentum. Let us dissect this:
 

   2) Finding the weird gain and focus of momentum

 

It is not attack speed which is making a weapon fast with slide attacks, but where the momentum gets applied. Your 1.4 Ether Reaper is not sliding faster than your 0.8 Skana. On those which are considered "travel-weapons", the momentum is not put in a way where it slows you down, either happening before the swing starts or after it is done, which lets you reach Ludicrous Speed. Those which are considered crap, have their momentum placed inside the swing to cause an actual DECREASE in speed. But there is more to it. Different actions have different effects:

• crouch = momentum gain   (the longer you hold it, the more momentum affects your move)
• sprint = Speed multipler   (self explanatory. Faster frames slide faster)
• direction key = Sustain / decay of speed   (releasing it will let you slow down very rapidly and thus giving you less reach)

So if you just tap your crouch key, you don't get this crazy speed boost and makes either slide attack (ground/air) suddenly look rather decent. I'd be perfectly fine with them in this state. Knowing this would give people having trouble with that more control over their actions, but that is only a workaround, not an actual fix. Remember the example with car and handbrake? I don't see why finetuning your handbrake skills should be more important than fixing your REGULAR brake.

Now for the weapon types. They are sorted by general slide attack distance you get and increase from momentum. As you can also see, they are broken in three parts which means: positive / balanced / negative affect of momentum. Yes. Negative. For this test, I used only weapons with 1.0 attack speed to be comparable to each other, or applied minor levels of Fury to reach 1.0 As a testing ground, I used Corpus Planetside defense, the one with the "dam". There is a section in the back which is very long and has dark-light panels alternating, which helps tremendously in measuring distances.
 

Not everyone wants to read these tests, because you probably already know which weapons are up ahead, and which are down, but this is for those who want to read my observations about this matter:

• STAVES (Bo) - have a weird autoroll, which gets them less far if they hit the ground in between, but in terms of raw momentum, they are top. You just need to learn when to release sprint key to avoid the roll)
• DUAL SWORDS (Dual Ether) & THROWN (Glaive) - no autoroll issue means they are easier to use, and get you almost as far as staves. Both are pretty much identical in distance covered.
• SWORDS (Ether Sword) & WHIPS (Lecta) & DUAL DAGGERS (Fang) & MACHETES - Don't nail me on that, but I haven't seen much difference among the four, other than Fang not always delivering proper momentum. Close to Duals.
• DAGGERS (Ceramic Dagger) - Close to Swords/Whips/Daggers
  
      ~ ~ ~
   
• NIKANAS (Nikana) - you can see the camera "twirl" when crouch pressed, and only then. This indicates the momentum is also applied belated, within the end of the weapon swing, making it only gain a little bit of speed before the momentum slows down itself, but enough to be a bit further ahead than without crouch keeping pressed. That said though, it is a single blade weapon but is no where as fast as it's current counterparts. Is that good or bad? Damned if I know.
• POLEARMS (Orthos) - Has the same problem with autoroll like staves. You get a little bit more distance when holding crouch but it looks very much like one of the two swings is decreasing the total speed you could get. Indicator for that is the camera shaking slightly when keeping crouch pressed.
  
      ~ ~ ~
   
• HANDS+FEET (Obex) - when releasing crouch, you get a tiny bit further, and this also is proven by the GFX trailing more behind you. The momentum is still in effect when your feet are being pulled down from the somersault, effectively stopping you dead.
• GAUNTLETS (Furax) - when releasing croush you move a bit further, but momentum clearly aims upward and slightly right (landing point changes), decreasing general speed
• SCYTHE (Hate) - I used a +10% Fury to gain 1.0 attack speed to be in line with the others) You can clearly see the camera panning left to right, as momentum gets applied through the entire swing. So it speeds you up a little, but then pulls the breaks. An Ether Reaper with max Fury is almost coming to an abrupt halt at the end of the swing, so Fury is detrimental to distance covered, but beneficial to placing a hit exactly where you want.
• HEAVY WEAPONS (Galatine) - It is okay that it feels like there is extra force pulling you down. It should be a heavy weapon after all. But the swing is actually so slow, it only starts driving up when your regular movement from the slide jump is almost over already. That, and when keeping "crouch" pressed, you get to stop a little sooner. Hard to distinguish though because the general distance covered is poor, and hard to tell where momentum actually gets applied, and how much.

 

Slide+jump move is affected by the exact same way momentum behaves. Keep the crouch button pressed and you catapult ahead like a living cannon ball, often covering as much distance using a Dagger.
The point where it gets REALLY ridiculous, is bunny-hopping. You can keep the momentum you are having by bouncing right off the floor again and adding on it. Granted, this is very difficult to pull off, and there are not many maps which would support it, but it's existence is even more cringeworthy in my opinion.

 

 

   3) Questioning why using an attack as travel method is a thing

For one, people rush missions. This is not an issue with the slide attack but with mission design, which has to be tweaked to avoid this (Spy and Deception comes to mind). The other reason is a general use of mobility. Now, we have many other ways to do so in our acrobatic arsenal. Slide+crouch gets you pretty well ahead already because it is also affected by momentum and base speed, and there are always wall jumps. However, they are sometimes as wonky as can be, while air-slide attacks at least get you into the direction you want. Still, I personally think the way some weapons can get you ahead is way overtuned. Not only acrobatics and some missions need a fix, but also the huge bonuses air slide attacks get on some weapons. I don't see why they should get you further than acrobatics.

 

So anyone who says "don't nerf my copter" is missing the point a little. Bug-abusing a system to rush through missions is questionable as it is. Nobody can tell me the irregular pattern of slide attacks is to anyone's liking, other than reaping it's benefits. Car with a handbreak.

Faster travelling should not be applied to a weapon but to your Warframe. They have different stats for a reason. Want to go faster? Use a faster Frame, not a different melee weapon.

 

 

   4) Balancing / fixing suggestions to slide attack movements

 

This research clearly yields a different application of momentum per weapon. This has to be addressed to lessen the tremendous difference in effective speed.

An Orthos should not be a lot slower than a Bo. I still think this has something to do with the second attack swing that is heard. Apparently one of the two times momentum is applied, makes it slow down.
Changing the Gauntlet animation to a forward thrust would make it be beneficial for momentum, and not detrimental with the uppercut.
Applying momentum at the start of the kick from Obex/Kogake instead of the actual impact animation would let them gain speed instead of stopping short.
Hammers should get a forward thrust to use momentum like the "Thor move", Scindo and Galatine could deal with either a different animation (wider backhand to forward sweep?) or simply placing the momentum elsewhere. Honestly, I take anything, as long as it isn't as cruel as now.

 

After all that is done, general momentum needs to be looked at and decreased. I would rather see all weapons be valid at their base than this extreme difference of "I can traverse an entire planetside tile in one swing" versus "I'm actually faster when sprinting..." This would also bring ground-slide-attacks to a point where you don't have to re-learn every single weapon type anew.
At the end of the day, I'd rather see acrobatics be used as a method to get faster through the map and not weapon attacks.

   - Khunvyel, the cheerful Melee-Slider

Edited April 25, 2014 by Khunvyel

[residente]

I don't want a slide nerf on my dual Kama-copters, using them on Volt is too fun to be nerfed ಥ_ಥ

[Delirious_Panda]

I managed to hit light speed coptering as Loki with max sprint mod, volt and dual ichors. Managed to clear whole cave's in one jump faster then it could render it. I agree the coptering has got way out of control and would be much better if it went back to how it was pre update 13. It is fun mind you, but also extremely hard to control.

[00zau]

They increased the push, but they lowered all the attack speeds. Lowering the push would be a net nerf compared to pre-melee 2.0 coptering, I think.

[Llyssa]

Can you summarize that better? It just goes on and on about zorencoptering after a rather unpleasant intro paragraph.

 

I don't use zorencoptering as any means of regular travel, so I could care less, but I do use sliding a lot, and I don't want to lose the glorious slide attack.

 

I'm rather lost at your goal, and there isn't an obvious "part to skip to" where you make an actual point. I really don't want to read the wall of text about zorencoptering is okay by you.

[Khunvyel]

*rolls eyes at Llyssa*

 

No it does not go on about zorencoptering. Actually it tackles more on the slide-attack point, how U13 made it more of a chore to land those slide attacks and how slide attacks in general are worlds apart from each other.

Neither do I want to lose the glorious slide attack, as you would also have learned when reading the topic. But there is too much discrepancy and chaos going on which only has been intensified with U13.

[Llyssa]

Er, you use the word "coptering" 5 times, across the first 2/3rds of the post. >.>

 

Paragraph after that, you ask for slide attacks to be nerfed. Not a fan of that idea. You also suggest turning it into a stab. =(

 

You also support the ludicrous concept that heavy weapons should give less distance. The logical behind why it should work in physics is that you're gaining the angular momentum of the swing in addition to your forward travel--the weight of the swing carries you forth. That being the case, heavy weapons should move you the furthest(most momentum generated), and fast, light weapons should hardly change your movement speed at all.

[fatpig84]

I have no issues landing slide attacks, even with berserker ticking on Dual Ichors.

Just use radial blind and they are stoned.

 

In fact, I like the way it can go to almost comparable to Slash dash length.

Edited April 21, 2014 by fatpig84

[Kracken]

i was the enemy of coptering and hyper jumping from the begining ... and what i see recently ? that the bugs are only escalating

[Khunvyel]

Paragraph after that, you ask for slide attacks to be nerfed. Not a fan of that idea. You also suggest turning it into a stab. =(

You also support the ludicrous concept that heavy weapons should give less distance.

Please, read again. You managed to misunderstand and even read wrong repeatedly. The time it took you to write two postings with false assertions could have been time spent to be more concentrated in reading.

 

But apparently many people are being hung up on the "he wants to nerf slide attacks" idea, so I'm going to rewrite and reorganize the topic tomorrow, so people can see where I was coming from. I admit and take half the blame of being too wordy and obfuscated clear statements. Half the blame.

[LukeAura]

It sounds like to me, because it is a little long the finer details are getting lost, you suggest a couple of things
1) Pull coptering of super copters down, slow down the high speed spin slashes so they're still the fastest copters, but not painfully so.
2)  Pull the coptering of anticopters up, by turning them from heavy stationary rotors to forward thrusts. So they're still the slowest copters, but...not painfully so.

I like it.

[Khunvyel]

In a nutshell, yes. But who would I be if I would just suggest this without having claims and reasons to back it up? :D

 

In this case, I've taken more time testing to flesh out this topic better, not just opinionated rambling. I've set out the quest to find and analyse momentum and it's effects, and have been successful at that. Posting is bigger now, but a lot better structured with clear points to tackle.

 

So everyone, please take a re-read, topic has been fully overhauled. I hope those 6 people who gave their +1 would still be okay with their upvote sitting on a different flavour of text. If not, please let me know as of why you would not upvote it now.
 

[Azamagon]

You know, on top of what you suggest (making the slide attacks a bit more equalized), I'd also like to suggest us having TWO different slideattacks. It would require a bit of work on DE's end, but I think it would end up pretty well:

 

Slide + Tap E = Shorter range, more aoe-focused slideattack

Slide + Hold E = Longer range (more coptery), more single-target focused slideattack.

 

That would mean, for example:

* Most weapons spinning attacks as they are now is what the Tap-slide could look like now, just with less uber-range sliding. Spinning attacks, uppercuts (although, maybe they could be made a bit more diagonal to cover more horizontal ground? or maybe become a doublepunch, one being more horizontal the second being the current uppercut?) and the kickbox vaultkick (which has pretty huge aoe for its ragdoll at the moment)

* The Hold-slide could be more like thrusts (for most weapons) and straight punches/kicks (Gauntlets, Kickbox weapons). That would then make them more logical of being longer range slides, due to how you perform the attack and all

 

It would more or less satisfy both camps as well: Both the Copterlovers AND those that use Slideattacks more for actual combat.

[Charismo]

Please, read again. You managed to misunderstand and even read wrong repeatedly. The time it took you to write two postings with false assertions could have been time spent to be more concentrated in reading.

 

But apparently many people are being hung up on the "he wants to nerf slide attacks" idea, so I'm going to rewrite and reorganize the topic tomorrow, so people can see where I was coming from. I admit and take half the blame of being too wordy and obfuscated clear statements. Half the blame.

 

Please don't bother with Llyssa. If you keep talking to him, he'll start sending creepy passive aggressive private messages to you. He doesn't actually read your post, so don't take what he says as an actually critique.

 

On your topic, I feel that there are too many little quirks in the game that have become 'gameplay canon.' They work if you can abuse them, but why are we having to abuse them in the first place? Seeing systems put in place that take those quirks and make them systemic and logical parts of gameplay would be great.

 

[MechaTails]

Slide attack movements are too inconsistent and different among all melee weapons, it makes connecting this attack to enemies a different beast to tame every other weapon type, up to the point where it is a pain to use.

 

Sliding with a giant hammer shouldn't be the same as sliding with a dagger. If anything the hammer's slide should take you longer to stop because you have more momentum or whatever.

 

Obex's slide feels like it has a lot of friction, it doesn't take you as far, it's great because it's a close range weapon anyway. I find it much easier to aim, and time the button press to actually attack, than say the Lecta's very fast slippery slide which I don't like. I would leave the Obex's slide alone and tone down the slippery feel of the Lecta's. In that sense, I like the "inconsistent movements" between weapons because they shouldn't all be the same.

 

What's this topic about though, the sliding or the attack that comes after the slide?, because they're not the same thing.

 

I don't think all weapons should do a similar movement for their slide attack, they should be different like how weapons have different stealth attacks. Obex's rising kick with knockdown is great for it. Lecta's is okay, but it'd be nice if it did something more whip related, like maybe you slide right past the enemies but you trip up and topple all enemies in your way.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DarkTails

[Khunvyel]

I do not ask for slide attacks of all weapons being the same in distance covered.

I ask for something that isn't as irritating in difference between "I would be faster when sprinting instead" and "I can traverse half the tile". I simply want to get rid of the obvious movement glitches, which automatically will downsize the difference with different weapons to slide around. Not equal out, but narrow the gap.

And this is what I meant with my statement about "different beasts to tame." It is one thing to have a different slide attack animation and learning how to use it including it's speed-up time and timing. It is another if this new animation either flings you through half of the map or magnetizes you to the ground.

 

 

Slide + Tap E = Shorter range, more aoe-focused slideattack

Slide + Hold E = Longer range (more coptery), more single-target focused slideattack.

I do not support this suggestion at all.

Slide attack already requires 4 (5) button presses, even if two of them can be made a toggle. Not everyone plays with toggles. I also do not ask to please both camps. The application of Momentum is broken and can more or less be considered a bug. One that is often used, but still a bug. Even the animation spazzes out on fast weapons in midair, doing the "air-walk." Since U13, there is no limitation any more as to how many targets can be hit by a melee weapon, and even weapons with a more "narrow" hitting arc during slide attack like Ankyros and Obex, still cover a decent area of hitting things.

 

A game doesn't get better the more buttons you need to mash.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Khunvyel

[MechaTails]

I do not support this suggestion at all.

Slide attack already requires 4 (5) button presses, even if two of them can be made a toggle. Not everyone plays with toggles. I also do not ask to please both camps. The application of Momentum is broken and can more or less be considered a bug. One that is often used, but still a bug. Even the animation spazzes out on fast weapons in midair, doing the "air-walk." Since U13, there is no limitation any more as to how many targets can be hit by a melee weapon, and even weapons with a more "narrow" hitting arc during slide attack like Ankyros and Obex, still cover a decent area of hitting things.

 

A game doesn't get better the more buttons you need to mash.

 

What button mashing? What extra buttons? All he said is if you tap E while sliding you do one attack, holding it a little longer causes the other attack instead. Nothing changes, there are no extra buttons and no mashing (whatever that means since everyone seems to have different opinions on what mashing means around here lol)

 

I sort of see what the problem is with the different momentums though, I'm noticing some weapon slide attacks accelerate for no good reason.

Edited April 28, 2014 by DarkTails

[Khunvyel]

Oh duh, that was a big error on my side, that's what I get from writing tiredly. I'm sorry Azamagon, consider the part where I was addressing your suggestion for naught. See, my melee button is strapped to my mouse's thumb-grid, and I'm playing on E-S-D-F instead of W-A-S-D and for some reason I managed to think about not the forward key, but the USE key being pressed as " E " instead.

 

So, using a hold / tap for a different slide attack would indeed pose interesting possibilities for sure, but given the nature of slide attacks as they are, the problem with distance and momentum has to be solved at first, before we can think about any other movement additions.

 

What I still disagree with is catering to both camps, posed with the questions above as to why a combat move should yield you more distance than an acrobatic maneuver in the first place. The distance covered from short walljumps is massive enough, including the distance from crouch-jumps. While affected by momentum, even here I'd like to see some minor tweaks, but in general it scales ONLY with the speed of the Warframe. Slide attacks scale with BOTH. Warframe AND weapon speed.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Khunvyel

[Khunvyel]

I just remembered how I wanted to go back to this topic after watching Devstream 29 on friday and quote some of the things from there which really rubbed me the wrong way in terms of coptering, etc. So, now I get around to do it;

 

Again, I am NOT the guy who demands coptering being nerfed into the ground. No. BUT.

I question the buggyness of it, and I question the validity of it, as well as the harsh differences per weapon for doing so.

 

I kind of understand how people, like [DE]Glen, could think about it is an integral and iconic part of the game right now, but at the same time I need to wonder... would it be so hard to adapt, even if we already have alternatives built into the game? Think of it;

I dare anyone in the game instead of coptering, go and try to do the quick-wall-leap to get where you want, and also to do the slide-jump. ESPECIALLY the slide-jump, because that gets you pretty far ahead.

So I'm honestly a bit disappointed that [DE]Glen didn't think about using the two alternatives to get around after unequipping the melee weapon. It is sad that these things are actually being pushed out of people's minds already.

 

Granted, the quick-wall-leap is as irregular and unpredictable as coptering with the "highest mobility" weapons. Unreliable, buggy, and prone to faceplant into the next wall. But BOTH are affected by momentum the same way, so again, looking there and apply tweaks it more consistent, then check on the weapons and see what can be done there.

 

I'm pretty sure my tests in the starting post are going to be valid and I don't need to verify them again until a major parcour / movement change has been made.