Overall Melee 2.0 Feedback

[Khunvyel]

I felt like splitting up this topic, and deliver it as overall applicable feedback for all weapons, and then post the other part with the specialized information as I was testing each and every weapon category, posting my results.

   Credit where credit is due
I love you to bits for topping your original goals for Melee 2.0 over and over again, I love you to bits for delaying and wanting to make it worthwhile and I love you to bits for allowing multi-hits on each and every weapon, even daggers. I haven't quite had the opportunity to sit down and really test if individual weapon types cap out, but after my hit counter raised from 0 to 6 with ONE swing of my Lecta... *happysiiiiiiiiigh*
Furthermore, I appreciate that you didn't make counter-attacks automatically executed to give us a choice if we want to dive in or dash out. Thank you.
I know that all the animations you created which didn't end up being shipped are not lost work, and we only have the first iteration of Melee 2.0 here and now. I am positive it will be expanded later on, if only to fill the current holes.
This is why I took so long to test things because this is a feature I am wildly interested in, so my feedback is extensive about it. I apologize that it is so late though, if I had more time, I would have delivered this on Day 2 of U13, probably. Because I care. Alright? Okay? Good, now we have that settled :D Now, before I continue, you will not read a single thing about stances in this topic. This is mainly because there are so many around already and I don't want to have just another breeding ground for repetitive discussions.

   A) Questions / Observations

[GENERAL]

• Hit counter time threshold should be frozen when executing counter attacks, because some weapons apply the damage pretty late and this could mean you losing your streak because you are trapped in the animation. Or you simply add non-weapon hits to the hit counter, like the legsweep from Glaive/Kestrel prior to striking, or the knee dive from heavy weapons. This might fix parts of the problem, yet Dual Weapons would still suffer.
• How about adding the missing stats? Ground finisher damage, stealth / counter attack damage is not visible.
• It would be great to know what the weapon ranges actually are, on average at least.
• Why do you use "Sparring" on mods for both, Gauntlets and Kickboxing weapons if they are not the same thing? This causes nothing but confusion. We already have "Gauntlets" so you just need to come up with a good name for "Hands and Feet" if you don't feel comfortable using that or "Sparring". So, Kickboxing? Martial Arts? Omnibrawl? okay, okay I stop. But at least please use "Gauntlets" if nothing else.
• You have to overhaul melee weapon descriptions to reflect the current changes. Remove all charge-attack references, for starters, but that isn't the only thing you need to look out for.

[ATTACKS]

• Stealth Finisher / Counter attack damage only benefits from: Steel Charge, Pressure Point, Killing Blow and Faction based damage mods. No bonus damage from individual IPS mods, elemental damage of any type or mix does not apply, and neither does Organ Shatter increase the supposed yellow "crit" damage. There is also no addition from the 4x multiplier for Loki and Ash while cloaked. Do you intend to fix this? Because it only takes a few mods to outdamage counterattacks and Stealth finishers, so they become less of an incentive to use, and this is a bit sad.
• Neither Stealth attacks nor Counter attacks cost stamina. Is this intended?
• If Counter attacks knock enemies down should they not outright kill them, why are stealth attacks not doing the same?
• Not every weapon's counter attack knocks an enemy down if they survive the hit, so perhaps that should be made a thing for every weapon then?

[CHANNELING]

• Why do we need to channel attacks in order to counter? Isn't it enough that we - supposedly - need to hit a timed window of opportunity?
• 100% Energy efficiency (60% from Reflex Coil + 40% from Focus Energy) still requires 1 Energy to Channel. Is this intended?
• If you channel an attack you need to hold the button for as long as it takes until the damage number shows up. If you release it prematurely, the attack will not get the damage bonus. This is especially noticable during a longer animation (Fist counter attack / Dual sword stealth attack). Even worse, during the stealth animation you are prohibited to do anything, so you cannot press the button again. Nothing happens. So either you allow us to re-channel the attack, or you keep the channeling auto-on during the animation if it was activated before.
• Could it be that channeling damage was adding +100% with 13.0.0 which was then reduced to +50% ? I could swear but I don't have any evidence to back it up.

[ENEMIES]

• You cannot counter Chargers or Ancients. Chargers stagger back without a follow-up prompt, and Ancients casually ignore you.
• Any weapon with an elemental effect upon ground slam (Amphis, any Heat sword, Dark Sword, etc.) have the issue that enemies do not get knocked down. This means, we cannot execute a ground finisher, EVER, after using a ground slam with these weapons BECAUSE: kick attack is useless against flailing enemies from electricity / fire procs ! They keep their status proc animation. 'Tis bad. So I'd say; first proc application, then override with knockdown animation.

[ANIMATION]

• Many weapons take too long to return control to your character after executing a stealth attack / counter / ground finisher. Some weapons camouflage this with a gorgeous animation, but sometimes you simply stand there for the blink of an eye, doing nothing, and this is time not well spent. Especially fast weapons like Daggers should not have this awkward pause. I hope you revisit these end-animations so we can fluidly continue slashing (or shooting) or you allow us to prematurely end these animations after the damage has been delivered, just like shooting overrides melee sheathing of quick attacks.
•   Are we going to get idle animations specific for each weapon type? Because there are a couple of shared ones which don't look all that fitting. Sure, Kogake and Ankyros/Furax can share the same, this is fine, yet it would be a lot nicer if they would be different. But, having Staves + Scythes + Polearms use the same idle animation is a bit off. Scythes don't fit that bill. Even more so with Whips + 1Hand Swords + 1hand Daggers + Machetes,... they all share the same animation. And this animation is the only one which is moving the camera around without the player's doing, which no other idle animation does.
• That said, will we get additional weapon grip idle & hold animations depending on Warframe set used (normal / agile / noble) like primary/secondary weapons have?

   B) Suggestions

 

 

[ATTACKS]

• We NEED vertical aiming for regular attacks badly. You have implemented it for wall attacks at least, but the rest of melee would benefit greatly from this as well. Simply because of staircases, crates, railings, and the added skill depth to strike at enemy heads. (( I did the latter excessively in Jedi Outcast / Academy, knowing exactly how each swing behaved. It can be done. ))
• The only single target hits are counter attacks and stealth attacks. I understand why the latter are, but not the former, especially since I've come across situations where my damage swing simply passes through a neighbouring enemy, not connecting. I hope you think about that.
• How about letting "Finishing Touch" adding damage to counter attacks and stealth attacks too? Either to make up for their current loss of damage or even if all modifiers are applied, add this extra oomph to them? There definitely is more effort required in pulling off counter / stealth attacks. It just feels bad if my dagger deals more damage on the first, noncritical swing than the entire stealth finisher does.

[CHANNELING]

• You lose channeling energy for each enemy HIT and not for each SWING you make with the weapon. I don't see a reason why you should be using up more channeled energy only if you happen to hit multiple enemies. So I'd suggest you either change channeling to subtract energy on each executed attack, regardless of hits (that would make it by default cost energy if you swing into the air, but hey, not my fault, right?) or you change channeling to an energy degeneration rate instead of fixed subtraction and you degenerate energy as long as you keep the button held. This actually sounds a lot more like Channeling than anything else, come to think about it. Increasing / decreasing of efficiency would simply lead to a faster / slower degeneration rate.
• Mod Energy Channel could add those few points of energy spent for channeling as an extra bonus damage. Might not sound like much you say? Well, 5 energy is base cost so with a max mod (200%, which is not hard to max) that is 10 damage per swing. This would mean the mod becomes more interesting if you pair this with other mods REDUCING channel efficiency. Also, it entirely depends WHERE you place those 10 damage. If they are added to the base damage and then further increased by mods...? Suddenly those meager 10 damage sound a lot more interesting if boosted by damage mods. Even if only applied as modified physical damage and not elemental one, this still sounds good already.
• A combination of both ideas would mean you could stand there and channel energy a bit until you are satisfied and then strike for lots of kerboomz. This would be useful if you do not want to spend more than you actually wanted because of the powers at your disposal which don't require a target are costly. Also, sometimes it you only might have so much energy ready to cast any of those skills, but still want to prepare to take that heavy out with one single strike because you are so badass, knowing that wouldn't take like 75 extra Energy to begin with.
• If you add a slight increase in attack speed and/or range to the channeling button, it would actually feel more like a second attack button that people so scream for. Honestly, I don't think many of us really want slower attacks delivering more damage, considering the pace of the game and the survivability. If anything, we want FASTER attacks. For going slow and heavy, there are entire weapon categories for that. Having said that, heavy weapon category needs more love. :/ but I digress.
• You could even go so far and make the channeling button an actual attack to begin with. Just automatically triggering the attack while there is energy added to the mix. And to be conform with my ideas above, holding the channel button when executing the first attack would lead to a new animation where the Warframe slowly rises the weapon into a strike-ready position, while channeling energy into it. Yummy?
• What would you think about giving different weapons a different channeling damage modifier (including others like mentioned above) and perhaps also channeling cost modifier? Would that be too gimmicky or would that be a game changer?

[ENEMIES]
Adding the ability to auto-counter attack Grineer Rollers when clicking at the right time as they jump you and impale them on the floor in return would be the most satisfying thing to do against these buggers that I could think about right now. (( That is, other than having a team of Rhinos playing soccer with a Roller as ball, just saying. Rhino? Soccer? More likely Football Rollerball ))

Edited April 28, 2014 by Khunvyel

[DeadX65]

one other thing, loki when inviz can be forced into stealth hits...which do considerably less damage than just regular melee attacks. almost anytime an enemies back is too loki, and he attacks it forces the stealth kill rather than regular melee strike, i've tried slide attacks to circumvent this...and he just stands up and does the stealth anim hit

 

when i say considerably less damage i mean considerably. 1 hit regular melee vs 4 hits stealth anim hits to kill, and the time it takes to get out of that anim is ridiculous when the target doesn't even die.

 

why am i being forced into a stealth attack that takes more time to complete and does 4x less damage just because their back is to me and they're not alerted? needs a toggle, on stealth attacks are possible, off only melee no matter alert status or facing.

 

as to finishers...those anims need to be shortened  a lot. nobody is going to take that damn long in the middle of a fight to kill someone laying on the floor. much less ignore everything still going on to take their sweet time to finish someone off.

 

you may have thought it looked cool DE, but it just doesn't work as it is. orthos was one of my most loved and hated weapons because of it's finisher, which often missed entirely but still left me stuck in an animation i never wanted to do in the first place.

Edited April 21, 2014 by DeadX65

[TheCeron]

I would like to add, and I don't know if this has been said before, that the stance polarity should be universal. I don't know what their future plans are, but right now there are only 1-2 stance mods for every weapon type. And all they really add are different move sets to their standard combo and some additional energy. 

 

While that's an overall pretty good benefit, the base energy they give is fairly low; though with the double up from matching polarities it's increased a good bit. Still, for the sake of organization and standardization I think all melee weapons and stance mods should just use the 'ward' polarity type. There's really no other mods that use this, no other mods like these, and their effect on the weapon they are slotted for is separate from the effects of other mods (Such as damage increases, aura regens, etc). 

 

I just feel it is an unnecessary limiter on the system. Where as the polarity placements of warframes fall in line with their general theme; the different polarities on stance mods just don't really make sense.

Edited April 23, 2014 by TheCeron

[Khunvyel]

Went through many of the things I criticised in my first post to test seeing if they are still applicable, and they are. Thus a bump!

 

As for polarities mentioned by TheCeron; I have to agree, this looks rather off. I'd rather have each weapon getting NO Stance polarity, meaning either stance put in is going to give us the same extra capacity. So if we want to specialize in a stance, we use a Forma.

 

As for DeadX65 and forced to stealth attacks while cloaked;

Either they have fixed it, or I'm unable to replicate this with Ash. I can happily slice and dice everyone as I well see fit, either when stealthed before entering combat or during mid combat. Of course, if I attack from the BACK I'm getting a stealth prompt, but this is only as long as I am not detected. When entering stealth mid combat, I can try as hard as I want, I am unable to get a stealth prompt from enemies.

 

So if your problem only happens with Loki when you are forced into a stealth prompt from ALL sides, then it is Warframe specific and needs to be looked at.

 

The finishers have had their time shortened tremendously with melee 2.0 in comparison to 1.0 Heavy finishers are pretty fine now. I think what you rather refer to is not the animation itself, but the time between having delivered finisher damage and getting back control of your character. Yes, this can be more speedy. Or "interruptable", as we can interrupt sheathing animation of melee weapon with premature firing.