Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]

[MechaKnight]

The targeting on Venom's initial cast is what kills it for me.  It'd be nice if it either had AoE around the target or even better, had AoE and could target anywhere; every enemy within a small burst would be tagged with spores.

Yes, this is something that would help with general usage. Now if there was a way to pass around spores between enemies such as a duration for auto-spread, it would be nice.

[MechaKnight]

That Excalibur storm sure was something...

 

What I'm impressed with is how a nerf to Radial Blind was planned and distributed before buffing Radial Javelin, Super Jump, and Slash Dash. The best way to approach Warframe fixing is to fix the weaknesses first before lowering the strength on a single outstanding ability. This is best done in one huge patch, like how the Oberon buff update changed all four of his abilities at once. Changing abilities one-at-a-time is usually a recipe for disaster.

Edited September 12, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Melos-mevim]

I personally think that contagion should be either changed completely or replaced wit ha different ability, reason being is I see it is useless when we have channeling, why would I want to use 75 energy to buff my melee damage when I could just use 2 energy per swing (maxed reflex coil is so nice) and buff it just as much?

[MechaKnight]

I personally think that contagion should be either changed completely or replaced wit ha different ability, reason being is I see it is useless when we have channeling, why would I want to use 75 energy to buff my melee damage when I could just use 2 energy per swing (maxed reflex coil is so nice) and buff it just as much?

I reworked Contagion to work differently yet with the same value as Warcry due to melee focus and same energy point cost. It's fair and makes sense, same quality as another ability with the same purpose, but different enough to be used in conjunction with the other ability.

 

Anyone is welcome to added suggestions to what I wrote, and I'll see if I can include them.

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

[Melos-mevim]

I reworked Contagion to work differently yet with the same value as Warcry due to melee focus and same energy point cost. It's fair and makes sense, same quality as another ability with the same purpose, but different enough to be used in conjunction with the other ability.

 

Anyone is welcome to added suggestions to what I wrote, and I'll see if I can include them.

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

 

just thought of a suggestion that others can build off of (might of already been listed don't know) what if contagion made all weapons of the team "contagious" by that I mean they give everyone in the team a damage boost of sorts, shots from ranged weapons could have a small AoE as for melee no clue what it could do

 

edit now that I think about it my suggestion is actually rather poor

Edited September 12, 2014 by Melos-mevim

[MechaKnight]

just thought of a suggestion that others can build off of (might of already been listed don't know) what if contagion made all weapons of the team "contagious" by that I mean they give everyone in the team a damage boost of sorts, shots from ranged weapons could have a small AoE as for melee no clue what it could do

 

edit now that I think about it my suggestion is actually rather poor

Your suggestion has already been made before, for Contagion to affect all of Saryn's weapons and not just melee. I considered it too long ago, but realized there's a lot of potential in keeping Contagion for melee by giving a very solid defensive buff to Saryn, and an enemy debuffing effect to enemies around her, like Warcry does, but differently.

 

Remember: the master has made more mistakes than the student has tried, and I'm no master, I keep trying to spin more builds in my spare time but sometimes it doesn't add up. It's easy to write the idea down, but the hard part is putting numbers in, and considering mods.

 

Maybe I can try working on venom next. Currently it's on-target with biped-target aiming for secondary burst function, but some ideas have appeared in the past like lobbing a strange goo mass on the floor with  support effect AoE. The mass can be thrown onto the environment, or stick onto enemies and travel with them. Like the Torid launcher, but better.

[GTG3000]

Saryn really needs to have some way to recover health though, if you move her more into healthtank grounds. Otherwise she becomes a liability for the team.

[MechaKnight]

Saryn really needs to have some way to recover health though, if you move her more into healthtank grounds. Otherwise she becomes a liability for the team.

I included that portion in my Contagion overhaul, and as of now I don't know where else healing would go. Maybe minor healing on Molt could help.

[LordSebastian]

Bless you! I'm still playing Saryn(from almost Update 7), she's my one-love warframe, and in almost all things i agree with your\community ideas. Saryn needs buffs. and needs it quite hard. almost all of her abilities are quite useless compared(or just simply pointless) to other Wframes. I hope DE wont ignore this post, and will add those(or similliar to those)changes.
 

[LordSebastian]

And how about idea, to make Venom simply an AoE abillity?
I mean you're targeting area, and enemies that hitted recieving spores, that will infect other enemies only 1 time(wont pop on infected that was infected by....infected.)

sry for my eng, btw x)

[FatalJ]

To the OP (Sorry if anyone has covered this, I ain't reading 13 pages of feedback :P)

On the whole I agree with your propositions and criticisms of the frame. While there are indeed several great ideas here, there are a few points of change however I'm less keen on in amoungst the suggestions.

 

Venom (and Molt a little)

 

I most definitely agree that enemies death before you can pop the spores is a pretty big problem. I'm in full support of spores clinging to the ragdoll upon death, as that idea instantly addresses the problem. I'm also a big supporter of the idea (further down the line), of being able to apply spores to Molt. If Molt gets destroyed the spores pop and spread the virus. These are both neat and clever little solutions.

 

I can not however get behind the idea of spores automatically proccing on each damage tick, nor upon enemy death. The idea of triggering your spores is a very interesting and unique mechanic. I'm not a big fan of the Nova because she can just lob her ult across hordes mindlessly and easily throw down damage. To me this requirement feels fresh and entertaining to use, almost creating a game in of itself.

 

Of course buffing viral proc chance and/or damage is up for debate, I have no interest in going 50 waves on defense missions or whatever so I'm on the fence in that regard.

 

Additional thoughts:

For any proposed damage/proc chance increases, do bear in mind there are quite a few ticks of damage, 1 for each second in fact. Obviously every point of damage is applied multiple times, but the proc chance is actually quite high, even if you make the value really low. (I don't know the actual value, so here is a guesstimate)

 

MATHS INCOMING! (if my stats maths serves me correctly that is....)

4 spores going on a target all have a chance of applying their own proc of Viral each second. Even with only a 5% chance of a viral proc over a time period of 15 seconds. Each damage instance has a 0.95 chance of not proccing, at 4 separate instances each second you have a 0.8145 chance per second of no proc. Each second has this same chance of proccing, so you multiply by 0.8145 each time. By the end of the 15 seconds you have approximately a 3% chance of not applying a viral proc at SOME point.

 

Hell with my theoretical status chance (5%), even by tick 3 you are already at a 50% chance of proccing Viral. You also find that very minute percentage increases drastically effect this probability, just adding 2% takes this up to 60% at tick 3.

 

Molt

 

I do agree that this ability is a tad short on range (I'm in full support of a buff to this), and the defensive ability it brings is lacklustre at best. I like your idea to allow us to cast venom on it, which will explode on death (mentioned above), however I'm not really on board for anything else.

 

Once again automatic Venom spreading takes away a key feature and uniqueness of the frame, and I'm adamantly against that. A health buff is counter logical to the use of the Molted skin. You WANT the damage proc, and you don't want to have to spend another 50 energy in order to trigger it whenever you want/need it. In the same breath however the ability to be able to trigger it by casting another one is useful and clever from time to time, so I'm not keen on casting multiple instances either. The dash feels weird, are we saying if you want to use the dash for whatever reason, you have to leave a copy behind?

 

The blind isn't a bad idea, and it kind of fits, but it doesn't do anything until the Molt pops. I'd add the blind, and then add some initial survivability as well. Personally I'm a fan of the idea of leaving behind your molt clone, and you yourself becoming chameleon like and harder to see for a short time (kind of like Mirage shadow Eclipse). If that isn't enough, we could give her a damage reduction and all, although I not keen on this as she effectively has "New skin", which wouldn't make a whole load of sense. I feel the blind and chameleon abilities are enough.

 

As a side note I would also make it corrosive damage, since toxin is weaker vs. infested, which would be the main faction this ability would see the best use against.

 

Contagion

 

Honestly you are dead right, this skill just needs whole scale reworking. That said I see a lot of people considering going for the Embers old overheat ability, but I'm not convinced this is the right ability for the Saryn. People seem to want to make her a tank, but I see her more as a status proc support frame, who has decent damage, decent survivability, but relies mostly on her poison abilities to circumvent enemy armour, shields, and health to make enemies easier to kill.

 

I would personally make this ability a poisonous gas damage cloud over an area (with a chance to proc gas obviously), where any enemies within the cloud spread their status' to all others each tick. For those of you who don't know, gas causes a proc on a target that sets off a 100% chance toxin proc to all enemies near the gas proc target. This will effectively mean that 1 proc of gas will be applied to all enemies, and cause mass toxin procs across the board. Putting this ability down around a Molt (with corrosive as I suggested), will allow you to hit enemies with the health degen of Toxin/Gas and Corrosive's armour shred. Hit someone with a Venom Viral proc as well, and that is lowered health added to the mix.

 

Then of course you have all the other frames being able to throw their procs down as well, such as the Embers heat procs, Frosts frozen procs, not to mention weapons, etc, and before you know it you can shut down whole scores of enemies with 1 well placed Contagion cloud. I feel this fits both thematically as well as providing the potential for some real nice DoT and potential CC to give her a reliable defensive ability.

 

Of course this cloud could also follow the Saryn as well, for mobile proc spreading, but whatever. That's a debate for another day :)

 

Miasma

 

Yeah your changes sound reasonable here, no complaints ;)

Edited September 14, 2014 by FatalJ

[Teardanos]

As part of a community effort, feel free to cite this thread if you perceive it necessary on a Saryn discussion thread. It would be helpful to contact me and help cross-link these threads.

If you agree with buffing this Warframe after reading this thread, a silent nod of approval can be given by upvoting this starting post. Constructive discussion within the thread is also encouraged.

 

First of all thanks for doing this and all. I'm bad at expressing with many words so ill keep it simple.

 

Synergy. Synergy between skills. This is what all frames lack at certain point.

 

Venom should be what it is now, awesome and fun mechanic. Nothing beats that feeling when whole room is full with enemies with purple (or whatever) colored venom balls on them and enjoying the amount of numbers poppin on screen from tics.

 

Rest of skills should be built around this mechanic. 

 

Molt should be left as it is. Except for mechanic allowing using venom on molt, and upon explosion molt spreads them on closest enemies. 

 

Contagion mechanic should be changed. Instead of melee buff, it should be a trigger button for every spore. Using which would force every spore to explode for blast/toxic damage. Also it would spread acid damage corroding every one within small range, including ones who were affected by it. 

 

Miasma mechanic should be slightly changed and damage reduced by 60-90%. Instead of being spammable melt your face ability it needs to serve for it's only main and real purpose. The Crowd control. It should have 100% chance to stun/stagger/knock enemies. Additional effect like reduce toxic/viral/corrosive resistances for enemies would be good. Also to avoid spamming, it needs to have cooldown for about 6- 12 sec. 

 

This is mere suggestion. Just a crap suggestion out of my head without any numeric values. My point is that there should be something that can compliment and trigger that venom effect on Saryn. I have played more than 200 hours on this frame, and i know a lot about her different playstyles and nothing can be more boring than running around and spamming single miasma for 25 energy or more fun like popping single venom spores on enemies. Making that fun mechanic also rewarding? I would be glad to see that happen.

Also important aspect for her is that large base HP bar. I know that adding extra armor/hp values to frame does sound useful, but since you can't really call yourself a TANK even after complementing the values with extra hp and armor mod. You don't really have any skill behind to back that HP value. Rhino has Iron skin with large shield values. They replenish. That's why he is a tank. Saryn has to pick up hp spheres to replenish. Of course it opens up for Mod combos like Rage build, even equilibrium seems like awesome idea but focusing on that destroys offensive potential. Maybe some skills like molt should cost health instead of energy. And exploding spores would add some life regeneration effect after using certain skill? Big HP has been worrying me since ever i got this frame.

[MechaKnight]

Reply time! Thanks for your submissions.

 

And how about idea, to make Venom simply an AoE abillity?
I mean you're targeting area, and enemies that hitted recieving spores, that will infect other enemies only 1 time(wont pop on infected that was infected by....infected.)

sry for my eng, btw x)

I think I'm seeing it. It will cast one-handed like Fireball, except it will be a venom mass. When it hits anything, it will explode. Enemies hit by this explosion get spores, and eventually automatically pass these spores along with a limit to how many each enemy can spread from themselves. It's a very good idea, and can also work with no limit, but a longer timer for auto-spread.

 

 

To the OP (Sorry if anyone has covered this, I ain't reading 13 pages of feedback :P)

On the whole I agree with your propositions and criticisms of the frame. While there are indeed several great ideas here, there are a few points of change however I'm less keen on in amoungst the suggestions.

 

 

Venom (and Molt a little)

 

I most definitely agree that enemies death before you can pop the spores is a pretty big problem. I'm in full support of spores clinging to the ragdoll upon death, as that idea instantly addresses the problem. I'm also a big supporter of the idea (further down the line), of being able to apply spores to Molt. If Molt gets destroyed the spores pop and spread the virus. These are both neat and clever little solutions.

 

I can not however get behind the idea of spores automatically proccing on each damage tick, nor upon enemy death. The idea of triggering your spores is a very interesting and unique mechanic. I'm not a big fan of the Nova because she can just lob her ult across hordes mindlessly and easily throw down damage. To me this requirement feels fresh and entertaining to use, almost creating a game in of itself.

 

Of course buffing viral proc chance and/or damage is up for debate, I have no interest in going 50 waves on defense missions or whatever so I'm on the fence in that regard.

 

Additional thoughts:

For any proposed damage/proc chance increases, do bear in mind there are quite a few ticks of damage, 1 for each second in fact. Obviously every point of damage is applied multiple times, but the proc chance is actually quite high, even if you make the value really low. (I don't know the actual value, so here is a guesstimate)

 

MATHS INCOMING! (if my stats maths serves me correctly that is....)

4 spores going on a target all have a chance of applying their own proc of Viral each second. Even with only a 5% chance of a viral proc over a time period of 15 seconds. Each damage instance has a 0.95 chance of not proccing, at 4 separate instances each second you have a 0.8145 chance per second of no proc. Each second has this same chance of proccing, so you multiply by 0.8145 each time. By the end of the 15 seconds you have approximately a 3% chance of not applying a viral proc at SOME point.

 

Hell with my theoretical status chance (5%), even by tick 3 you are already at a 50% chance of proccing Viral. You also find that very minute percentage increases drastically effect this probability, just adding 2% takes this up to 60% at tick 3.

 

Molt

 

I do agree that this ability is a tad short on range (I'm in full support of a buff to this), and the defensive ability it brings is lacklustre at best. I like your idea to allow us to cast venom on it, which will explode on death (mentioned above), however I'm not really on board for anything else.

 

Once again automatic Venom spreading takes away a key feature and uniqueness of the frame, and I'm adamantly against that. A health buff is counter logical to the use of the Molted skin. You WANT the damage proc, and you don't want to have to spend another 50 energy in order to trigger it whenever you want/need it. In the same breath however the ability to be able to trigger it by casting another one is useful and clever from time to time, so I'm not keen on casting multiple instances either. The dash feels weird, are we saying if you want to use the dash for whatever reason, you have to leave a copy behind?

 

The blind isn't a bad idea, and it kind of fits, but it doesn't do anything until the Molt pops. I'd add the blind, and then add some initial survivability as well. Personally I'm a fan of the idea of leaving behind your molt clone, and you yourself becoming chameleon like and harder to see for a short time (kind of like Mirage shadow Eclipse). If that isn't enough, we could give her a damage reduction and all, although I not keen on this as she effectively has "New skin", which wouldn't make a whole load of sense. I feel the blind and chameleon abilities are enough.

 

As a side note I would also make it corrosive damage, since toxin is weaker vs. infested, which would be the main faction this ability would see the best use against.

 

Contagion

 

Honestly you are dead right, this skill just needs whole scale reworking. That said I see a lot of people considering going for the Embers old overheat ability, but I'm not convinced this is the right ability for the Saryn. People seem to want to make her a tank, but I see her more as a status proc support frame, who has decent damage, decent survivability, but relies mostly on her poison abilities to circumvent enemy armour, shields, and health to make enemies easier to kill.

 

I would personally make this ability a poisonous gas damage cloud over an area (with a chance to proc gas obviously), where any enemies within the cloud spread their status' to all others each tick. For those of you who don't know, gas causes a proc on a target that sets off a 100% chance toxin proc to all enemies near the gas proc target. This will effectively mean that 1 proc of gas will be applied to all enemies, and cause mass toxin procs across the board. Putting this ability down around a Molt (with corrosive as I suggested), will allow you to hit enemies with the health degen of Toxin/Gas and Corrosive's armour shred. Hit someone with a Venom Viral proc as well, and that is lowered health added to the mix.

 

Then of course you have all the other frames being able to throw their procs down as well, such as the Embers heat procs, Frosts frozen procs, not to mention weapons, etc, and before you know it you can shut down whole scores of enemies with 1 well placed Contagion cloud. I feel this fits both thematically as well as providing the potential for some real nice DoT and potential CC to give her a reliable defensive ability.

 

Of course this cloud could also follow the Saryn as well, for mobile proc spreading, but whatever. That's a debate for another day :)

 

Miasma

 

Yeah your changes sound reasonable here, no complaints ;)

 

Sorry I had to include an extra spoiler bracket to make it fit, but I'm sure you understand.

 

Venom

Okay, for your first section I see you want Venom to have more opportunities to spread spores, but not lose the fun of actually doing it.

 

Also, your math checks out, I did too. Assuming all four spores are contributing, that's correct. I suppose the most major problem is that the current favored build is short duration due to how important Miasma is relative to her other three abilities. If Venom spreads would become easier for the ability to be more profitable in use, players would build towards it. I'm trying to find a compromise since I also like Venom's spread mechanic, but many players think a "dumbed-down" version with less effort and gear consideration would help her overall usage. I wouldn't necessarily find it more fun but more players would find Venom helpful perhaps.

 

Molt

As for Molt, I'll be humble and admit that the "Community Suggested Solutions" portion are in fact by people other than me in the forums, mostly on this thread but many ideas also just floating around these forums. They're not mine yet they're repeated enough that I can't really credit anyone on them.

 

That aside, yes I'm in full support of Molt interacting with venom, and charging it up with Venom. It would be an option that would probably feel easier for most players to work with assuming the unpopped spores on the Molt automatically pop or get taken into a damage calculation when the Molt explodes on its own, or by enemy fire. I will also agree that yes, Molt is not only too short-ranged, but it does seem to suffer from a variation of line-of-sight. I'm not sure if the explosion's trajectory is based on spheres, rays, or projectiles we can't see, but there's definitely a possibility of a single enemy taking all the damage while nothing else does if it is too close to the Molt. It looks something like this, just think of Excalibur as the Molt.

 

Also, I see what you think about the health buff to Molt. Very interesting view, it does go both ways. While Molt would be protective in higher levels, it wouldn't deploy its damage as readily. Perhaps the defensive component I'm looking for could just be applied to Saryn temporarily, like some of the ideas in the opening post suggest. That sounds logical: Molt would be buffed offensively, and/or Saryn would be buffed defensively after Molt.

 

The multiple instances idea was pretty commonly suggested, but one user in this thread suggested a dash like Excalibur's, and I figured it was interesting enough to list. Slash Dash can already feel clunky sometimes since it's rigid, can take you farther than you want, and you still collide with enemies. Stack that with multiple copies of Molt, and you get this really strange mine-laying dash that drops Molt where you were. It's like chained explosives--but there's an interesting idea right there--chained explosives. Could Molt clones detonate each other?

 

Yes, Molt could also simply cloak the player, although Mirage's cloak is minimally effective. Many players tend to build her around max power strength due to her immensely efficient energy usage, so I'm not sure players try to sneak with Mirage when placing her in shadows as much as they are taking advantage of Eclipse's 96% damage reduction. What bothers me mosty about Eclipse isn't the ability but level design itself. Light is definitely more commod than shadow, and in the void, it's very hard to find a spot of shade. I suppose it's an interesting balance though; if you're going to give players a maximum possibility of 96% damage reduction as a damage dealer, make it considerably rare to find.

 

Contagion

I focused mostly on damage mitigation since Contagion is currently the only melee ability that does not cloak the user or reduce damage taken, so at least some would make sense. I generally focused on damage mitigation, team utility, and strength but it could work with status chance as well. Although I calculated the new toxin damage values by mod comparison with how Valkyr's Warcry and Volt's Speed contribute melee speed, even with even values attack speed is usually superior to weapon damage. Fast weapon speed allows players to copter, stun lock, proc more status, and deal more damage. Meanwhile, additional toxin of an appropriately compared magnitude would be just that: raw damage per hit, and I'm not sure if the status effect gets stronger, considering that the wiki page seems to indicate only base damage is counted, not the toxin element.

 

I'm okay with a gaseous effect like that. I even left room in my initial draft to include one if Contagion still wasn't considered strong enough. Perhaps Contagion doesn't need to be a melee-focused ability to include this feature. It can be a placed trap instead, which honestly would take the frustration out of the current Contagion which is extremely lackluster due to not having enough offensive effect as a melee ability, and not having enough defensive effect as a melee ability. I'm not sure how different we can draft the abilities for DE before they don't implement any of it for Saryn and release a new warframe instead, but it's worth a shot.

[MechaKnight]

First of all thanks for doing this and all. I'm bad at expressing with many words so ill keep it simple.

 

Synergy. Synergy between skills. This is what all frames lack at certain point.

 

Venom should be what it is now, awesome and fun mechanic. Nothing beats that feeling when whole room is full with enemies with purple (or whatever) colored venom balls on them and enjoying the amount of numbers poppin on screen from tics.

 

Rest of skills should be built around this mechanic. 

 

Molt should be left as it is. Except for mechanic allowing using venom on molt, and upon explosion molt spreads them on closest enemies. 

 

Contagion mechanic should be changed. Instead of melee buff, it should be a trigger button for every spore. Using which would force every spore to explode for blast/toxic damage. Also it would spread acid damage corroding every one within small range, including ones who were affected by it. 

 

Miasma mechanic should be slightly changed and damage reduced by 60-90%. Instead of being spammable melt your face ability it needs to serve for it's only main and real purpose. The Crowd control. It should have 100% chance to stun/stagger/knock enemies. Additional effect like reduce toxic/viral/corrosive resistances for enemies would be good. Also to avoid spamming, it needs to have cooldown for about 6- 12 sec. 

 

This is mere suggestion. Just a crap suggestion out of my head without any numeric values. My point is that there should be something that can compliment and trigger that venom effect on Saryn. I have played more than 200 hours on this frame, and i know a lot about her different playstyles and nothing can be more boring than running around and spamming single miasma for 25 energy or more fun like popping single venom spores on enemies. Making that fun mechanic also rewarding? I would be glad to see that happen.

Also important aspect for her is that large base HP bar. I know that adding extra armor/hp values to frame does sound useful, but since you can't really call yourself a TANK even after complementing the values with extra hp and armor mod. You don't really have any skill behind to back that HP value. Rhino has Iron skin with large shield values. They replenish. That's why he is a tank. Saryn has to pick up hp spheres to replenish. Of course it opens up for Mod combos like Rage build, even equilibrium seems like awesome idea but focusing on that destroys offensive potential. Maybe some skills like molt should cost health instead of energy. And exploding spores would add some life regeneration effect after using certain skill? Big HP has been worrying me since ever i got this frame.

I inserted a spoiler into your reply to save space.

 

Seeing increased interest in preserving the popping mechanic. I'll keep it in mind but I still remember earlier feedback of the difficulty of spreading. I think a status chance increase per spore is still desirable, not just because of the likelyhood to inflict status, but because of how fast it should inflict status. Players inflict status quickly with their guns now so a status chance increase is still viable for Venom as an improvement. It may even keep the same mechanics past that.

 

More feedback on Molt interacting with Venom, a very popular suggestion so far.

 

I think this idea for Contagion could be combined with FatalJ's (and other user's) idea of a mobile cloud followin Saryn, with this cloud detonating spores upon close contact. This would allow Venom to preserve its mechanic while allowing players to have an easier option to detonate them in case their aim, punchthrough, and rate-of-fire is insufficient, as a risk to being closer to enemies.

 

Miasma is always on the list, but never easy to tackle. Once I figure out a working set for Venom, Molt, and Contagion, Miasma could change significantly. Always in the back of my mind is how similar it is to the old ability, but a complete four-ability rework could make the change more likely.

 

That's a very interesting balance between Molt and Venom. I would hesitate to link them like that since Motl would be dangerous when used without Venom, but otherwise I definitely see the worth in having a healing ability on a health-focused warframe. I currently planned for it to be on Contagion, but it would probably have to be a melee ability as planned then.

[MechaKnight]

To get a step closer to fixing Saryn, I'll give a quick attempt at making a complete set of abilities that works.

 

Venom

Let's buff the status chance per spore to 10% each tick. Also, Venom will no longer be a target ability. Instead, Saryn will throw an organic mass similar to Fireball, except it is a large spore that explodes upon impact to spread normal spores to surrounding enemies. This will give a guarenteed automatic spread to nearby enemies, yet preserve the fun popping mechanic.

 

Molt

Let's change Molt to allow Venom spores to latch on. The spores will deal no damage to the Molt. Enemies will shoot at Molt and possibly spread it themselves, but just in case they don't pop any spores, the Molt will automatically spread them when it explodes as usual.

 

Contagion

We can follow my current draft to overhaul the ability.

 

As for Miasma, it's a point of debate to whether it should change or not, but I'll consider planning something for it.

[MechaKnight]

The above post looks reasonable. Here's the logic behind it:

 

The status chance per tick for venom in-game is observed to be quite low, but there's no solid info out there as of yet to the status chance per spore per tick. For now, I think it would be nice for venom to proc viral status once within 5 to 8 seconds, which is probably better than the current probability.

 

It's a very good idea for Molt to interact with Venom in some form, it would provide just enough of a boost to be a nice ability. The damage type could also change to gas as a way to expand the currently short radius Molt has.

 

The Contagion draft is meant to make Contagion viable and fun, and an ability that is contantly used.

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

Although it seems good enough, it could be improved with implementation of a toggle, and more focus on the gaseous aura around Saryn. I originally put the aura in as an afterthought, but it could be used for automatic trigger of Venom spores. The toggle and fume aura probably requires me to rewrite this draft at some point.

 

As planned above, reworking the abilities like this would allow players to make a choice: enhanced usage of Venom, Molt, and Contagion at the cost of Miasma, or the same low-duration Miasma build. Keeping with the theme of choice, Miasma could have a low chance to proc corrosive status per tick, so it wouldn't happen too often during the low-duration build that ticks 2-3 times. It may inflict status better with higher duration at a cost to its damage potential, but the purpose of this new reworked set of Saryn abilities is to be supportive by debuffing enemies multiple ways.

[GTG3000]

That's a very big wall of text you have there for contagion draft. Could you please make a TL;DR version? 

[Bearssi]

Saryn is my favorite frame. I would play her more if her first ability would stop shouting invalid target and would actually be useful on more than one target a time.

[climatiseur]

My suggestion on her 3rd ability:

 

 

Change this ability to---

Mucus:

 

Saryn emits toxic mucus from her body (frame?) which cover her entirely.

 

Effects: 

1.She gains a degree of damage resistance. And resistance to some other debuffs. My suggestion: puncture, slash, toxic, fire, and freezeing.

2. Apply toxic damage and slow to melee attackers.

3. Mucus leaves behind as a path where Saryn walked pass. Enemies who contact with the mucus path will get toxic damage and slow as well.

4. Casting Molt during the effect of Mucus will give the same defensive and toxic buffs to Molt until it is destroyed, or Mucus runs out.

 

Ability affected by duration and strength.

 

Advantages of this ability:

Saryn is slow. This help her survive better in a crowd, escape more easily and be a better in-battle fighter.

It has a better synergy with Molt, and it buffs Molt.

 

---

 

Also a suggestion for buffing Molt:

 

There can be one more Molt at the same time. ( SERIOUSLY need it)

Ranking up Molt increase the maximum number of it that can be cast at the same time. Say:  2 / 3 /4

[Bearssi]

Saryn needs a bit more attention. I am currently running -duration build for maximum Miasma damage, its sad that i have 3 other abilities that are not used at all with this build.

Tried to use Molt a few times in the current event missions and i find that i could just face tank everything anyways so Molt is waste of energy, i do not think Molts effectiveness will increase when difficulty increases.

Venom is irritating to use and does not spread ever with 1 shot weapons like Paris Prime and Latron Prime.

I hardly ever play against over 50 level enemies and all my melee weapons are max rank so i do not need more melee damage even so minuscule as what contagion gives.

Miasma is not "oh sh.."- ability its the main damage ability with this efficiency/minus duration build and the only ability in use.

Saryn is the ultimate high heels warframe. I walk on infested, i dance in grineer and corpus alike gunfire and turn my enemies into wonderful goo.

Ps. secretly wish the goo effect from Miasma would stay longer :)

Edited September 19, 2014 by Bearssi

[Acegikmo]

When you apply Venom to an enemy, hitting them with a melee weapon should blow up all of the spores to reinforce her close-range orientation.

[Teardanos]

Saryn is tanky warframe with powerful offensive abilities. Unfortunately none of abilities compliment her tanky nature.

 

 After reading most of ability suggestions and tweaks (lots of good ideas honestly) I just came to conclusion that it's for the best to just think on new abilities instead of tweaking the old. Let the DE surprise us.

 

Would be cool to have Saryn with all 4 abilities intact, without using forma on any ability slots just to make her playable miasma puking machine at lower levels and mostly useless at high levels.

 

*Edit* Thread is getting older and sinking into abyss of forgotten threads

Edited October 4, 2014 by Teardanos

[MechaKnight]

I'll put in a small suggestion, but I'll consider retouching the opening post to be less cluttered.

 

What if we consider fixing the problems surrounding spreading Venom by incorporating Venom mechanics into her other abilities?

 

Molt can allow Venom spores to be tacked onto it, and can auto-spread the spores upon explosion.

 

Contagion can have a gas cloud added to it so Saryn can either strike the enemy with her weapon or simply get close to them to make spores spread from the target enemy.

 

Miasma could interact with Venom as well, but that depends on whether it's instant or duration based depending on the rework we use.

[GTG3000]

Well, Miasma could just make the Venom spores explode on enemies. 

 

The way they explode would certainly depend on the way Miasma would work though. I could see it just detonating them for plenty of bonus damage with no spread, or making them spread with each Miasma tick target receives?

 

Also, are you thinking about her as a healthtank, or as a slightly tanky caster?

[MechaKnight]

Well, Miasma could just make the Venom spores explode on enemies. 

 

The way they explode would certainly depend on the way Miasma would work though. I could see it just detonating them for plenty of bonus damage with no spread, or making them spread with each Miasma tick target receives?

 

Also, are you thinking about her as a healthtank, or as a slightly tanky caster?

 

No spread would be fine if Miasma was remade to be an instant damage ability. Auto-spread would work better if the rework relied more on duration.

I would assume Valkyr would take the role of health tank, her small shield capacity would mean she's mostly health and armor. Of course another warframe is inbound with update 15 devs say, which can take another gameplay role we haven't seen yet.

 

Saryn is probably best suited to be a field debuffer to weaken enemies, yet her up-close tendency on most of her abilities would mean she has to be tanky to be so close at all times. Similar to how Valkyr is suited to be in crowds to melee them all one-by-one, Saryn would instead be surrounded by enemies yet weaken all enemies around her, maybe even leaving clouds and other hazards behind.

 

As of now, Saryn gameplay is hard to really describe because of the way her ability kit works. Hypothetically, Venom is a long range ability while her other three abilities are meant to be short range, so it's like playing a destructively-oriented variation of Frost. As of currently with the weakness of her kit aside from Miasma, she's just generic damage. It's disappointing, but at least with the Molt debuff strip addition, it's slightly more tolerable.

Edited October 9, 2014 by MechaKnight