Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]

[MechaKnight]

 Saryn is press4towin in all of the 'normal' game. You can walk around and do nothing but press 4 with Fleeting build. Its easy and boring (and it probably upsets others as much as a spammy Nova if not more)

But we don't see Saryn spam to win builds. We see endless Nova spam builds. Since you're yet another user who's compared Saryn to Nova, I'll have you read what was already stated about Nova as to why she's infinitely useful than Saryn, and is imbalanced as she is compared to most other warframes.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-2#entry2607021

 

There's my post. A sizeable one it is. Once you read it you'll have a good idea as to why Nova is known to do immense damage and crowd control with minimum effort compared to every other warframe in the game. For more info on how Saryn works, check my opening post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/#entry2601886

It also contains links to other threads about Saryn and her shortcomings. Check those out too.

 

 

 

Miasma is not weaker than stomp damage-wise; idk how people arrived at the conclusion.  With a 57%/75% strength/efficiency build Stomp costs 25 energy and does 2512 damage immediately around Rhino and 1256 in the rest of the radius.  With the same build Miasma costs 25 energy and does 4036 damage in the full radius.  Stomp is a better crowd control skill as it immobilizes enemies for 8 seconds and knocks them down afterward for an additional second or two of disable; Miasma only staggers enemies for 4 seconds.  However, Miasma can be spammed while Stomp cannot be recast until all afflicted targets are killed or have recovered.  Lastly, Stomp has much more range than Miasma, bringing it ahead decisively for crowd control but it is not a better nuke in any way.  Stomp is a CC ability that does decent damage at close range while Miasma is a damage ability that has an additional stagger effect.  Stomp's Blast damage is also ineffective vs Ferrite while Miasma is super effective vs Ferrite and has a small chance to proc against Alloy as well.

 

Remember that with Stretch, Rhino Stomp has 31.25 radius compared to Saryn at 21.75. Rhino has significantly more damage and crowd control purely by how many enemies he can affect in a given radius. Rhino can also proc blast on some enemies at the start of the effect, but it's definitely not a common proc. So Rhino is very good against corpus and robotics.

 

The comparison between Stomp and Miasma is pretty well done, but it's ultimately the range that's the biggest issue. And the proc chance of Miasma is very low, almost none.

 

We're mostly in agreement. I just think Miasma needs either a range increase, stun increase, or a proc increase. I'm mostly in favor of a stun increase, or proc increase so she can be more supportive considering her lack of stun.

 

 

 

 

Already possible.  In fact, if you use Venom once and Chaos the enemies can infinitely pop the spores on each other until there is only one left standing.

 

You'd have to have a Nyx on your team however. It's never a good thing to say an ability needs special conditions besides your one warframe to work effectively. Venom is okay, but needs a better spread mechanic. I'm in favor of this: if the enemy dies and no spores are popped, let that enemy act as a single popped spore. Otherwise, Venom has unusual requirements of mods and weapons focused to activate the skill, like high rate of fire, large pellet count (shotguns), and punch-through mods/weapons. Due to this warframe's lack of crowd-control, it seems to need a member with more dispensable crowd control abilities. I'm not saying that's unique to this single warframe, but that essentially means Saryn needs to be carried since she can't CC around herself so well.

 

And that reminds me... Nova and Nyx? Incredible considering what I described about Nova. The floor of enemies literally kill themselves in about a second of time. Meanwhile Venom starts with a 15 second duration, and is shortened to a 6 second duration if using the Fleeting build for her odd Miasma behavior. While Nova has 60 seconds of duration NOT dependent on power duration of enemies with 50% movement speed, 50% attack speed, and 200% weak to any form of damage thrown at them, be it their own damage or your damage.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[RealPandemonium]

But we don't see Saryn spam to win builds. We see endless Nova spam builds. Since you're yet another user who's compared Saryn to Nova, I'll have you read what was already stated about Nova as to why she's infinitely useful than Saryn, and is imbalanced as she is compared to most other warframes.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-2#entry2607021

 

There's my post. A sizeable one it is. Once you read it you'll have a good idea as to why Nova is known to do immense damage and crowd control with minimum effort compared to every other warframe in the game.

 

 

 

 

Remember that with Stretch, Rhino Stomp has 31.25 radius compared to Saryn at 21.75. Rhino has significantly more damage and crowd control purely by how many enemies he can affect in a given radius. Rhino can also proc blast on some enemies at the start of the effect, but it's definitely not a common proc. So Rhino is very good against corpus and robotics.

 

The comparison between Stomp and Miasma is pretty well done, but it's ultimately the range that's the biggest issue. And the proc chance of Miasma is very low, almost none.

 

We're mostly in agreement. I just think Miasma needs either a range increase, or a proc increase. I'm mostly in favor of the proc increase, so she can be more supportive considering her lack of stun.

 

 

 

 

You'd have to have a Nyx on your team however. It's never a good thing to say an ability needs special conditions besides your one warframe to work effectively. Venom is okay, but needs a better spread mechanic. I'm in favor of this: if the enemy dies and no spores are popped, let tht enemy act as a single popped spore. Otherwise, Venom has unusual requirements of mods and weapons focused to activate the skill, like high rate of fire, large pellet count (shotguns), and punch-through mods/weapons. Due to this warframe's lack of crowd-control, it seems to need a member with more dispensable crowd control abilities. I'm not saying that's unique to this single warframe, but that essentially means Saryn needs to be carried since she can't CC around herself so well.

 

And that reminds me... Nova and Nyx? Incredible considering what I described about Nova. The floor of enemies literally kill themselves in about a second of time.

I only brought up then Nova/Nyx synergy to demonstrate that spores can be popped by allies (or friendly fire-afflicted enemies in this case.)   As for the "you don't see Saryn nuke builds much" statement, that's mostly because people don't know about the build and I don't think things would be much better if you did see more Saryn Miasma spammers since it's effectively the same thing as MPrime spam without the added frills (still wipes everything in the regular game.)  I, personally, would like to see radial nukes abolished from the game and replaced with more interesting abilities. Fourth abilities like Tornado and Tentacle Swarm are a step in the right direction and I would not mind if radial ultimates with drawbacks like Blade Storm and Sound Quake remained since those abilities have downsides and decision-making incorporated in them. 

[Vargras]

What's a Saryn?

[MechaKnight]

I only brought up then Nova/Nyx synergy to demonstrate that spores can be popped by allies (or friendly fire-afflicted enemies in this case.)   As for the "you don't see Saryn nuke builds much" statement, that's mostly because people don't know about the build and I don't think things would be much better if you did see more Saryn Miasma spammers since it's effectively the same thing as MPrime spam without the added frills (still wipes everything in the regular game.)  I, personally, would like to see radial nukes abolished from the game and replaced with more interesting abilities. Fourth abilities like Tornado and Tentacle Swarm are a step in the right direction and I would not mind if radial ultimates with drawbacks like Blade Storm and Sound Quake remained since those abilities have downsides and decision-making incorporated in them. 

Well said. Radial nukes are cheap to use, but also quick to make. Radials are just standard fare in every game. Although since World on Fire, Tornado, and Tentacle Swarm, we have also seen placed effects are possible.

 

Yes, Blade Storm and Sound Quake are radials that are not overpowered. Those 2 warframes, Ash and Banshee, are also constantly being discussed for balance. A similarity between Saryn and Banshee: both are U7 warframes, and are usually discussed for buffing/reworking.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Well said. Radial nukes are cheap to use, but also quick to make. Radials are just standard fare in every game. Although since World on Fire, Tornado, and Tentacle Swarm, we have also seen placed effects are possible.

 

Yes, Blade Storm and Sound Quake are radials that are not overpowered. Those 2 warframes, Ash and Banshee, are also constantly being discussed for balance. A similarity between Saryn and Banshee: both are U7 warframes, and are usually discussed for buffing/reworking.

Everything that isn't exploitable (or is less exploitable a la Banshee) or doesn't have BOOM EXPLOSIONS is considered underpowered.  This is because veteran players don't play the solar map and consider infinite void content the only part of the game that matters when that is a trivial concern at best right now.  Meanwhile new players hear that only the popular frames are good and don't have the expertise to realize that that idea is full of S#&$.  People also are bad at the game and feel entitled to winning and so want to play frames that don't penalize them for playing sloppily so Nova, Trinity, Rhino, Loki, etc are super popular. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[MechaKnight]

Everything that isn't exploitable (or is less exploitable a la Banshee) or doesn't have BOOM EXPLOSIONS is considered underpowered.  This is because veteran players don't play the solar map and consider infinite void content the only part of the game that matters when that is a trivial concern at best right now.  Meanwhile new players hear that only the popular frames are good and don't have the expertise to realize that that idea is full of S#&$.  People also are bad at the game and feel entitled to winning and so want to play frames that don't penalize them for playing sloppily so Nova, Trinity, Rhino, Loki, etc are super popular. 

100% agreed. When I started playing I was told the only 'frames worth playing were Rhino and Nova, and I was taken full express to get those 'frames first. And nobody cared about the others at all. And this trend carried for months. So I decided to resurrect a rare warframe.

 

While this thread is here to address one lacking warframe, I consider many to be comparatively lacking compared to those warframes you mentioned.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Monolake]

But we don't see Saryn spam to win builds. We see endless Nova spam builds. Since you're yet another user who's compared Saryn to Nova, I'll have you read what was already stated about Nova as to why she's infinitely useful than Saryn, and is imbalanced as she is compared to most other warframes.

 

...

She is not popular and not as devastating, but she can be as big party pooper as Nova, instantly killing everyhting in the room. When I played Miasma spam even Novas had not much left to kill and other people on the team were like 'wtf are we even doing here'.  I don't like the huge radius nukes as a game mechanics - it is boring to play and anti-fun for teammates. Buffing Miasma in the current state would only make the problem worse.

  Radial AOE abilities should be given less damage and more utiliy (cc/debuff)  and high damage should be targeted - this would remove the problem of press4toWin  depriving teammates of any combat fun.  

[MechaKnight]

So rethinking Saryn's skills by priority of rebalance, I have this new list:

 

Contagion: See my original post. It's so terribly done, a complete rework is in order. The majority of players posting here agree.

 

Miasma: It needs an increase in proc chance, and range. The inverse-duration component is odd, but I have a proposed solution: We should increase the proc chance significantly, so players can choose the duration they want based on the purpose of their build. A long duration will have more ticks for a better proc chance, making her a debuffer. A short duration will make her a damage-dealer, but at the cost of not being able to debuff. The original damage calculation can be kept so everyone can still use the Fleeting build, but with additional proc chance, a duration build is also useful, and different. But the range on this skill is still pitiful at only 15 meters.

 

Venom: Is overall decent, but players have trouble with the spore mechanic. The DE Prime Time 27 livestream showed this inefficiency in action. I propose the enemy act as a popped spore on death regardless of whether or not you popped a spore. Or you can increase the duration of the original skill to 25 seconds and keep the power duration component in the skill, or remove it.

 

Molt: It needs an increase in health, threat generation, and range.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

She is not popular and not as devastating, but she can be as big party pooper as Nova, instantly killing everyhting in the room. When I played Miasma spam even Novas had not much left to kill and other people on the team were like 'wtf are we even doing here'.  I don't like the huge radius nukes as a game mechanics - it is boring to play and anti-fun for teammates. Buffing Miasma in the current state would only make the problem worse.

  Radial AOE abilities should be given less damage and more utiliy (cc/debuff)  and high damage should be targeted - this would remove the problem of press4toWin  depriving teammates of any combat fun.  

In full agreement. However, this thread is written currently to talk about the current game release. Miasma has very short range and short stun, so I'm not wrong in saying it should be buffed compared to radial abilities like Rhino's Stomp or Nova's Molecular Prime due to their range, utility, and damage. But if Miasma's not getting buffed, those outliers are getting nerfed.

 

Yes, I'm in favor of more utility. Giving Saryn's Miasma more proc chance and range would help this solution, changing it from a nuke to a team-service debuffer. It also needs more range, given that Stomp and M. Prime have 25 meters base, and Ember's Accelerant has a 20 meter power range at base, while only costing 50 energy. Accelerant is fine, but I know Miasma definitely needs a range boost.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MechaKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Yes, I'm in favor of more utility. Giving Saryn's Miasma more proc chance and range would help this solution, changing it from a nuke to a team-service debuffer.

Might be good if it had utility vs non-Grineer as well, but that wouldn't be necessary.

[Monolake]

Btw I tried some Venom popping and I dont feel like Shred on a weapon affects it, seems rather random and they dont pop even if I clearly shoot them

[MechaKnight]

Btw I tried some Venom popping and I dont feel like Shred on a weapon affects it, seems rather random and they dont pop even if I clearly shoot them

It's a strangely difficult ability to activate. I would assume punch-through helps, but it's generally a struggle to activate before you empty an entire clip into the enemy. All that's left then is whether or not it's still alive--assuming you're using a rifle, anyway. And if you're using a Miasma-max build, then you only have 6 seconds.

Edited May 4, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

I wondered how bad Miasma's range really is, so I went the full gamut to see how it compares to other Crowd Control (abbreviated CC) and Area-of-Denial (AoD) abilities. On every warframe, and a sentinel. Range and duration boosts from mods are not considered for this data. Here are my results...

 

Format:

Name: Of 'frame or sentinel. Possible comment if there's one to be made.

Abilities: Not all of their abilities, only the ones used for crowd control. Will be mentioned in Name/Range/cost format. All ranges assumed to be meters (m).

 

Ash: Stealth warframes don't generally have great CC because they can go unseen, but let's check his abilities anyway.

Abilities: Blade Storm/20/100.

 

Banshee: Has 2 CC abilities. One has 15m, but only costs 25 energy.

Abilities: Sonic Boom/15/25, Sound Quake/20/100.

 

Ember: Has one conventional CC, and one mobile attack with some CC. Fire Blast has no stun, but it's a form of persistent area-of-denial so I'll tack it at the end.

Abilities: Accelerant/20/50, World on Fire/15m while moving for 10 seconds/100, Fire Blast/15m on impact, 4m for 20 seconds/75

 

Excaliber: He has very good CC in his ability. For hard challenges, it's what he's known for-AKA, Excaliblind.

Abilities: Radial Blind/25/50

 

Frost: Has 2 abilities that are considered CC due to the 100% proc chance on freezing the target solid. Also if you count Snow Globe's slowing effect as area-of-denial/CC,

Abilities: Ice Wave/20 length, 3 width/50, Avalanche/15/100, Snow Globe/5m for 30 seconds/75

 

Hydroid: Extremely new, but I've been playing him for awhile. Although there's no concrete wiki numbers, I'll name his abilities and their apparent usefulness for CC and AoD

Abilities: Tempest Barrage/considerably large for a considerable amount of time/25, Tidal Surge/mobile stun for a considerable distance/50, Undertow/maybe 15 meters for 30 seconds at base/75, Tentacle Swarm/very large distance/100

 

Loki: His CC is a service debuffer that's permanent to any enemy it touches. Pretty nice. It has a bit of stun too. I don't consider Decoy(s) crowd control since they scale poorly if they're anywhere near an enemy, but his Decoy can be deployed at a distance, into tight corners.

Abilities: Radial Disarm/20m for 2 second stun and permanent weapon nerf/100

 

Mag: Quite a lot of support, we'll stick to their CC for now.

Abilities: Pull/25/25, Crush/18/100

 

Nekros: Debuffs and dispels enemies for a duration.

Abilities: Terrify/20m with 20% armor reduction for 25 seconds/50

 

Nova: Incredibly OP offense and defense for their crowd control ability

Abilities: Molecular Prime/25m initial radius + 15m per enemy, with 50% movement speed, 50% attack speed, and 200% damage taken from anything/100

 

Nyx: Has an ability which turns any enemy afflicted into a center of crowd control, and an ability that while not far-reaching for dealing damage, can have incredible crowd control for being a decoy with infinite health, with damage that scales to the enemies since they input nearly all the damage dished out. Like Molt, but better in every way.

 

Abilities: Chaos/25m for 25seconds + ~10m per enemy/75, Absorb/ ~20 meters of threat distance (potentially more) for 10s/100

 

Oberon: He has an AoD and a CC. The CC ability doesn't excel in range, but makes up for it with the generation of otherwise rare health orbs

Abilities: Hallowed Ground/17.5 length, 8.75 with/ 50, Reckoning/15m + health orbs/100

 

Rhino: Mentioned all throughout this thread for his incredible CC ability.

Abilities: Rhino Stomp/25m for 10s/100

 

Saryn: Topic of this discussion for buffing, including CC

Abilities: Miasma/15m for 4s/100

 

Trinity: A very different warframe, but maybe Link can be counted?

Abilities: Link/20m for 12s/75

 

Valkyr: Her CC is unusual. Short range, but highly dispensable due to low energy cost.

Abilities: Paralysis/10m/5 (wow that's a nice cost)

 

Vauban: Classically known as living crowd control. Hydroid comes close.

Abilities: Bastille/10m for 15s/75, Vortex/~15m for 12s/100

 

Volt: Not commonly seen, but what I remember from playing him felt nice.

Abilities: Shock/15m/25, Overload/20m for 4s/100

 

Zephyr: A highly mobile warframe, has one odd CC ability.

Abilities: Tornado/25m for 20s/100

 

Wyrm Sentinel: Yes, I just put down a sentinel on the table for crowd control comparison.

Ability: Crowd Dispersion/10m/once every 15 seconds

 

As you can see from literally every warframe in the game as of current release plus a sentinel, Saryn definitely has the worst crowd control and area-of-denial abilities of any and every warframe released thus far. Most warframe CC abilities of temporary stun nature has 20m to 25m of distance and can be potentially cheaper than 100 energy. Of the abilities that differ from this standard, they generally have lengthy run durations that act as an area-of-denial to block a path for a long time. There are also crowd control abilities that focus in a rectangular range in front of the caster, with very long reach and considerable width to boot.

 

And then there's Saryn. Only one crowd control ability with poor range and poor stun with full 100 energy cost. Awful. The only CC worse than Saryn's is Wyrm's, and the sentinel doesn't need 100 energy--it just has a cooldown of 15 seconds.

 

And this is the reason I say Miasma (and possibly Molt) should be range boosted. It could also have a very long duration of stun or presence in an area. Whatever feels balanced, because as of currently it's not good enough.

Edited May 4, 2014 by MechaKnight

[PsycloneM]

Out of curiosity, what do you think of this idea for a Contagion replacement, PsycloneM?

Around two weeks after Saryn's updates went live, I had shared my concerns about Contagion with Scott via PM. One of the general suggestions I made was very similar to yours. That is, on top of the +75% toxin damage for your melee weapon, Saryn could be imbued with toxins that cause enemies to have a short-duration attack/movement speed reduction each instance they make contact with her. So I'm all for that idea.

Miasma: It needs an increase in proc chance, and range. The inverse-duration component is odd, but I have a proposed solution: We should increase the proc chance significantly, so players can choose the duration they want based on the purpose of their build. A long duration will have more ticks for a better proc chance, making her a debuffer. A short duration will make her a damage-dealer, but at the cost of not being able to debuff. The original damage calculation can be kept so everyone can still use the Fleeting build, but with additional proc chance, a duration build is also useful, and different. But the range on this skill is still pitiful at only 15 meters.

Molt: It needs an increase in health, threat generation, and range.

Hmmm. The problem that I have with leaving the damage calculation as it is while significantly increasing the status chance is that the -25% armor reduction has diminishing returns. Even with a 50% status chance, there is a 37.5% probability that the armor debuff will proc twice with the full minimum-duration build (2 damage ticks and 1 reduced damage tick). An enemy with 1000 armor will have 750 armor after one debuff, 562 after two, 421 after three, and so on. The amount of armor reduction decreases with each subsequent proc.

It would be more beneficial to have a high-damage Miasma that lasts less than a couple of seconds, costs 25 energy, suffers no range reduction, has a high chance to reduce the target's armor by the maximum amount in one instance, and can still inflict high-damage to non-armored targets. Compare this to a lower-damage Miasma that lasts 10.28 seconds, has a 22.6% probability to proc six times (1000 armor ---> 177 armor), costs 70 energy with Streamline, has an 11.9 meter-radius with Narrow Minded and Stretch, and inflicts significantly less damage to non-armored targets.

The armor reduction in the latter case is superior, but considering all of the other costs by going with this build, I don't think it would be worth it. This is why I think the damage calculation needs to be reevaluated to ensure that the total damage is unaffected by power duration. The benefit of going minimum duration with constant total damage is still present: high-DPS, very low energy cost, and still has a good chance to apply the armor debuff once or twice assuming a 50% status chance. Against Grineer, going the maximum-duration build might be worth the range loss, higher energy cost, and lower-DPS considering Miasma will have a greater chance to reduce armor even further, while inflicting higher total damage than the minimum-duration build against armored targets.

What needs to be considered is how to prevent trivializing armor completely just by having a team of Saryns spam Miasma with an improved status chance. A maximum-duration build could also be more desirable if Miasma had an additional CC component (aside from the initial stun animation) that was affected by power duration.

Regarding Molt, I wanted to see if anything had changed. Rebecca seemed to have better luck with Molt in ODD than I have in the past. The behavior is still the same: enemies seem to be able to block damage, preventing a significant number of other enemies from being damaged in certain cases. In one scenario I had placed Molt in the air, slightly out of reach from about 10-15 chargers and runners. A leaper attacked the decoy, and managed to stay suspended in the air next to it. Out of the entire group, only the leaper took damage.

Ancients (and I assume other enemy types like Shield Lancers) can also push the damaging component of Molt away from the decoy. As an illustration, look here. Apparently one of the ancients on the left slapped the decoy, sending the "explosive" several meters away. The decoy remained in place. In the image, you can see the detonation is not centered on the decoy.

Molt is currently buggy, and could use another look.

Edited May 4, 2014 by PsycloneM

[MechaKnight]

*detailed response on Contagion, Miasma, and Molt*

Apologies, just a reference to the original poster due to the length of the post.

Yes, you have hit a massive point about that idea of Miasma rebalance: the alternative debuff path is not worth it due to decreasing returns, lack of stun improvement, and terrible damage, and people will still use the Fleeting build and drive her other 3 abilities into the ground. As for teams of Saryn, one Saryn is already shabby at crowd control as I mentioned. Bringing 4 means everyone needs to bring Wyrm or Shade with them.

One thing to note about [DE]Rebecca's play session was that it was on PS4. Other than being on an update build that has come and passed for PC users, I've no idea what factors may be taking place. Maybe it's an issue with hosts on the PC platform. For example, when I played Dark Souls and compared how it linked people for multiplayer, consoles had servers, but the PC release strangely ran purely by peer-to-peer connections. However I'm sure we're on servers since we see the population pool all at once the moment we try to enter a planet on the solar system. Extraneous words past, it may just be shabby host-to-server connections on PC compared to PS4. Hmm...

As for Molt's strange behavior of being knocked around to separate its physical element from its visual element, definitely buggy.

I left Contagion for last despite being first. Most of us agree it needs a complete rework. yes, what you posted so long ago about the slowing aura is great. I also found one similar suggestion for Contagion in Archwizard's Abilities 2.0 thread.

 

Saryn

Far as we can tell, Saryn is intended to be a melee frame. She has above-average defense like melee frames, relatively low range on her direct-damage abilities, and an ability that makes her melee attacks deal more elemental damage. Her major issue is that, since Damage 2.0, the Poison/Toxic element in itself isn’t all that effective, since it doesn’t ignore all forms of defense anymore – thus making Contagion less effective as a damage skill, and reducing her appeal in melee. She also has the terribly confusing (at least, within the context of a melee arsenal) Molt, which spawns a explosive decoy where she’s standing – thus, if cast while she’s charging at an enemy, enemies will still shoot at it through her, and any situation where you could use it for extra damage in cleaving range would require an enemy strong enough to one or two-shot it... which probably means they won't be affected much by its death. Really, since it lost its ability to attract enemies behind cover, everything else you could use Molt for (a distraction, an anti-melee/Infested bomb, etc.), you could just cut out the middle man – especially for someone like Saryn, who’s built with higher survivability, to pseudo-tank levels. If she were a real melee frame, she’d at least have a gap-closer (which would be weird for a poison elemental…) OR a durability buff… so why not kill two birds with one stone?

Archetype: Melee Caster.

Suggested changes:

- “Contagion” and “Venom” names switched – Her first skill is contagious, and her third has venomous strikes.

--> New “Contagion” spores are more responsive to melee attacks, and unpopped spores deal half damage to nearby enemies when their host dies.

--> New “Venom” buffs nearby allies to deal additional Toxin damage with all weapons (which does not combine with other elements, just adds to total weapon damage), and return Energy on melee strikes based on the player's combo modifier.

- Molt replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping spores from “Contagion”.

- Miasma's status chance per tick is increased. Damage is reduced, but Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger.

Yes, Allure is both a perfume pun (THOSE HEELS THOUGH) and a revival of Overheat. Scott has already said Overheat was not right in Ember’s hands, and I’m inclined to agree – it’s not fit for someone intended to spam Fireball from half a room away, but it’s perfect for someone who’s actually intended to melee. Plus, it opens the door to let Saryn use every Toxin-based element (she’s already got three!). Combined with “Contagion”, players are more likely to Leeroy Jenkins with her for maximum damage. Meanwhile, between Miasma (which has a stacking armor-reducing proc – THAT’s how you do an anti-armor skill, NOT Terrify) and “Venom”, Saryn’s damage utility skyrockets, and she returns to her glory days.

The big question here is mostly about "Venom", especially now that Melee 2.0 has made the cheaper, group-wide Speed much more effective for building combos and "pause"-attack stances, on top of its mobility outside of melee. The idea here is that "Venom" could be made more effective for Channeling builds, allowing you to increase the team's energy efficiency, while still providing a smaller benefit to those who brought a gun to the swordfight. The energy restoration would also blend well with the "Caster"-side of her potential builds. That said, I'm always open to suggestions for alternatives if you think it encroaches on Trinity's territory, but keep in mind what kind of utilities you'd actually bring a Saryn in for.

I kept the spoiler just to make this post smaller. Which reminds me... I need to find time and minimize some of this, it's huge. But Saryn is definitely a complicated mess of min-maxing and contradiction, like unpolished electrician work with tons of unbundled wires and wires/things connected to nothing, going nowhere. Removed the spoiler because hey, these buff concepts need to be seen. This warframe's been broken way too long.

Edited May 4, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

So I did some thinking. As much as I appreciate [DE]Rebecca's play of Saryn to cap her at rank 30 in Orokin Derelict Defense, and the fact she noticed odd quips that didn't feel right in gameplay, many of you know that Banshee, Frost, and Oberon, are on the table for discussion and buffing constantly, and Banshee and Oberon are already in consideration for buffing by DE. Strangely, these characters have a similarity in an ability each which feels right in only a few places against one faction, and not really anywhere else. I speak of the Infested, and Defense in particular.

 

So what's the problem? I think Infested Defense is a poor benchmark to test the quality of any warframe, at least by itself. Most of the time, we fight against enemies with guns. Usually, in most levels we move, and they appear out of various places in the room we just entered. And they shoot and take cover.

 

Using ODD (Orokin Derelict Defense) as a standard of testing for the above warframes, here's the synopsis.

 

Banshee: Sonic Boom and Sound Quake wreck Infested before they come close.

Frost: Snow Globe slows them highly effectively since they never think of hitting the globe as they march through.

Oberon: Hallowed Ground stacks upon itself to make sure Infested can't touch that piece of floor.

 

Granted, to say these warframes are completely valid based on these skills would be short-minded. Banshee loses her effectiveness when enemies come from all directions and have guns to shoot from afar. Frost loses his effectiveness in Snow Globe when things actually hit the globe--although his Snow Globe has seven times the health of Molt. Oberon loses his effect in Hallowed Ground to anything if you're still in the vicinity of it and enemies are shooting from everywhere. What's my point?

 

In The [DE] play video of Saryn, the only skill we saw being used a lot was Molt. The threat generation to get enemy attention is rather small, seen when she tried to put one in the air. Else, the only way to get the Infested to attack Molt is to put it close to their predetermined path. And because they're pure melee fighters, they may be the only faction that takes adequate damage from being so close to the Molt--sometimes--although as discussed earlier, Ancients can actually bug out the Molt to not work as intended, so even Molt becomes bad when Infested appear.

 

Essentially, the way to win ODD as of current release with the current enemies, you use the most spam-capable skill in your arsenal, regardless of how valid it is anywhere else against any other faction. While I'm glad DE tested Saryn against infested in ODD, Infested Defense should never be the lone standard of any warframe. Rebecca couldn't proc Venom, did not use Contagion, and Miasma's very short range as mentioned on this page, doesn't feel like a factor when enemies are being channeled down a predetermined path into a choke point. Meanwhile other factions shoot, take cover, and may even spawn other enemies from themselves.

 

Using solely ODD, Banshee, Frost, and Oberon don't need a buff/rework. They probably do.

 

In Short: I like he fact that Saryn was actually seen, but I can only hope she's being considered for rebalancing. And please, do take this warframe against other factions and game modes in testing. Miasma behaves strangely and is not good for CC, Contagion is awful, Molt is actually bugged in defense and offense, and while venom is the only half-decent skill, people say it's hard to trigger. Compare that to Nova, who doesn't need to focus on weak points. And Banshee has a similar skill, but the functionality of this skill marks many targets at once and helps you kill each one faster, which is not as limiting or precise as aiming to activate a weak point on only one enemy before it dies by poorly-aimed team fire. If you're using the Fleeting build for Miasma, you only have 6 seconds to activate Venom before the enemy dies of team fire.

Edited May 5, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Recovery8]

+1 this thread. Saryn is a doll and as much as I love using her I won't deny that a lot of the suggestions in this thread and the linked threads would make her feel better. I know she has been looked at in the past but the game is ever growing and I feel that she has basically become a relic of the old days, having an awkward play style as her powers have almost zero synergy. Popping spores is incredibly awkward and molt is -almost- useless as it is.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Recovery8

[MechaKnight]

The thread has settled. I'm sure we agree Saryn needs a buff. Let's get constructive!
 I will focus on skills the community currently focuses on when discussing Saryn, in order.

I will start with how it's currently implemented, and then discuss how it can be balanced appropriately.

This post is a work in progress. It may grow over time, and require more than one post, cross-linked to each other.

 

 

Miasma: A radial damage skill with short stun and short range, with no proc chance, that costs 100 energy.

I've had to compare every warframe (and a sentinel) in the game as of current release to give a solid look as to why Miasma needs to be better at crowd control. The current range is 15 meters, which is awful considering warframes with pure damage focus get 25 meters standard, warframes with helpful statuses (buffs and debuffs) get 20 meters, and any range less than that does wonderful things like spawn health orbs, and anything less than that delivers a super-status that slows enemy attack speed and movement speed, generates health orbs, spawns allies to fight with you, or has insanely low energy cost. Alternatively, short-range abilities have durations that are so long, they are comparable to traps. Miasma is no such trap as of currently.

 

So, let's get to the buffing.

She can get 25 meters range, and keep about 75% of her damage since her stun is a shorter. However, it would not have proc chance, or any form of benefit besides stunning enemies for a duration. It would feel like a slightly tweaked form of Stomp, focusing on damage instead of stun, but that would be too boring.

 

Next, we can move to the next league of usual warframe ability balance. The 20 meter, helpful status league.

Miasma can be given 20 meters, and a Corrosive proc. Since corrosive is one of the few warframe-delivered statuses that don't grant additional crowd control, and because warframes in this range group have 100% given helpful effects in this range group, it would make sense that there will be one instance of Corrosive damage at the start of Miasma that gives 100% proc chance. Since warframes in this league tend to have more stun than 4 seconds, the damage aspect of Miasma should be further conserved from its current iteration.

 

As of currently, this would make Miasma balanced, and useable in a similar way that current players of the game, including one [DE] staff member, like to play her. Take your pick.

 

Contagion: By the Lotus, this skill is awful. If you want to see how melee is done, check out Valkyr. Her skills interlink in such a way that if you really had infinite energy, you can transform the usual Warframe gameplay into a brawling game. She also has appropriately high armor at 600, giving an effective health value of 1560 EHP. Combined with power-maxed Warcry, she has 7,400 EHP. Or she can go invincible with Hysteria.

 

We've already mentioned Rhino plenty in this thread. If you wish to see how he compares, check my original post. More EHP, more shields, Iron Skin, and bonus speed. Compared to what Saryn has, he's more viable for melee.

 

Frost follows the same base stat scheme as Rhino, but with no built-in way to increase his speed and no Iron Skin. His high shields and EHP make him more viable in melee than Saryn, and if he casts snow globe for further protection and support before he starts his melee on one enemy, he's even more effective. Why do I go to such length to deploy a Snow Globe when initiating melee? Saryn's Contagion must be deployed before every melee spree, and other than a tiny bit of toxin damage, it doesn't protect her at all. Also, if using a Miasma-max build, you have only 8 seconds of time to hit the enemy with melee. So it's literally like casting Snow Globe before every melee session, but without any protection or slow-down support.

 

Solutions:

There are many, all throughout this thread. A great solution to Saryn's skill set is below. It's from Archwizard's Abilities 2.0 thread, linked here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-abilities-20-retune-all-the-frames-49-now-with-trinity/

 

 

 

Far as we can tell, Saryn is intended to be a melee frame. She has above-average defense like melee frames, relatively low range on her direct-damage abilities, and an ability that makes her melee attacks deal more elemental damage. Her major issue is that, since Damage 2.0, the Poison/Toxic element in itself isn’t all that effective, since it doesn’t ignore all forms of defense anymore – thus making Contagion less effective as a damage skill, and reducing her appeal in melee. She also has the terribly confusing (at least, within the context of a melee arsenal) Molt, which spawns a explosive decoy where she’s standing – thus, if cast while she’s charging at an enemy, enemies will still shoot at it through her, and any situation where you could use it for extra damage in cleaving range would require an enemy strong enough to one or two-shot it... which probably means they won't be affected much by its death. Really, since it lost its ability to attract enemies behind cover, everything else you could use Molt for (a distraction, an anti-melee/Infested bomb, etc.), you could just cut out the middle man – especially for someone like Saryn, who’s built with higher survivability, to pseudo-tank levels. If she were a real melee frame, she’d at least have a gap-closer (which would be weird for a poison elemental…) OR a durability buff… so why not kill two birds with one stone?

 

Archetype: Melee Caster.

 

Suggested changes:
- “Contagion” and “Venom” names switched – Her first skill is contagious, and her third has venomous strikes.
--> New “Contagion” spores are more responsive to melee attacks, and unpopped spores deal half damage to nearby enemies when their host dies.
--> New “Venom” buffs nearby allies to deal additional Toxin damage with all weapons (which does not combine with other elements, just adds to total weapon damage), and return Energy on melee strikes based on the player's combo modifier.
- Molt replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping spores from “Contagion”.
- Miasma's status chance per tick is increased. Damage is reduced, but Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger.

 

Yes, Allure is both a perfume pun (THOSE HEELS THOUGH) and a revival of Overheat. Scott has already said Overheat was not right in Ember’s hands, and I’m inclined to agree – it’s not fit for someone intended to spam Fireball from half a room away, but it’s perfect for someone who’s actually intended to melee. Plus, it opens the door to let Saryn use every Toxin-based element (she’s already got three!). Combined with “Contagion”, players are more likely to Leeroy Jenkins with her for maximum damage. Meanwhile, between Miasma (which has a stacking armor-reducing proc – THAT’s how you do an anti-armor skill, NOT Terrify) and “Venom”, Saryn’s damage utility skyrockets, and she returns to her glory days.

The big question here is mostly about "Venom", especially now that Melee 2.0 has made the cheaper, group-wide Speed much more effective for building combos and "pause"-attack stances, on top of its mobility outside of melee. The idea here is that "Venom" could be made more effective for Channeling builds, allowing you to increase the team's energy efficiency, while still providing a smaller benefit to those who brought a gun to the swordfight. The energy restoration would also blend well with the "Caster"-side of her potential builds. That said, I'm always open to suggestions for alternatives if you think it encroaches on Trinity's territory, but keep in mind what kind of utilities you'd actually bring a Saryn in for.

 

 

Contagion is such an odd skill, it is in conflict with her other skills. While Saryn was build with a seemingly close-range focus, these contradictions of how the abilities work and when they should be used simultaneously make her good for nothing. The above cited ability kit would balance her out to be completely balanced and fun. However this is only but one of many suggestions for reworks. Archwizard's is very good, but we can only hope the DE warframe balancing crew has the resources to devote to fleshing it out.

 

A more commonly, conventional solution was made by PsycloneM, FinnishHim, MageSkeleton, Tarille, and others, is that Contagion have a component of protection to Saryn, as well as an offensive aura.

 

Solutions for Molt and Venom pending (from myself), but this thread is full of suggestions, and I have linked some good Saryn threads alongside mine in the initial post, to get a more comprehensive view on how Saryn should be rebuilt.

Edited May 5, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Kiaru]

Saryn is a great frame. She is very versatile and can melee well, use guns well, is tanky and very durable, has nice survivability with her 2 and lots of damage via skills. Her 1 procs -50% HP a lot, so AOEing that(very fun to do, my favorite ability to use as it takes skill to use) then popping miasma usually cleans up enemies up to level 50 easily. My only suggestion would be to make her 3 give some secondary effect and perhaps AOE to teammates.

 

She's my second favorite frame and my go-to frame for most things just because of how versatile she is. I love her. Any buffs to her would be fantastic but really, she's in GREAT place. Frames with 4 useful and great abilities are very rare(her 3 being her only "weaker" one, but amazing if you're meleeing, while her 1 is useless if you're meleeing so it balances out). I think working on frames with only ONE useful ability is more important than such a strong nearly balanced frame like Saryn, though.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kiaru

[MechaKnight]

Saryn is a great frame. She is very versatile and can melee well, use guns well, is tanky and very durable, has nice survivability with her 2 and lots of damage via skills. Her 1 procs -50% HP a lot, so AOEing that(very fun to do, my favorite ability to use as it takes skill to use) then popping miasma usually cleans up enemies up to level 50 easily. My only suggestion would be to make her 3 give some secondary effect and perhaps AOE to teammates.

 

She's my second favorite frame and my go-to frame for most things just because of how versatile she is. I love her. Any buffs to her would be fantastic but really, she's in GREAT place. Frames with 4 useful and great abilities are very rare(her 3 being her only "weaker" one, but amazing if you're meleeing, while her 1 is useless if you're meleeing so it balances out). I think working on frames with only ONE useful ability is more important than such a strong nearly balanced frame like Saryn, though.

 

I've played many warframes, and they do tend to boil down to one or two skills. Saryn is messy mostly because Miasma is poorly suited for crowd control. See https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931,

and https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2632611

 

She's not well armored compared to tanky frames like Rhino, Frost, and Valkyr despite having a melee skill and not being able to be invisible. Also, the damage calculation for Miasma works against her other three skills. Although Molt can do somewhat decently for sudden escapes, it's ill suited in comparison to other warframe's methods of self-protection and crowd control--especially for a warframe with a melee ability. Contagion is definitely agreed as requiring a fix of some kind.

 

I don't debate venom much because it's okay. The only complaint is that it's not great for ill-equipped teams with a lack of strategy. And it's in direct contradiction to Contagion, which can't trigger venom at all. I do like it enough, but some people complain that it's too difficult. Venom is low priority for me, however the current trend of Fleeting Miasma builds gives her only 6 seconds to aim precisely and act fast. To use Venom well, you need to have careful choice in mods and weapons, but otherwise it's fine.

Edited May 5, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Kiaru]

Miasma makes you invincible for 1s and it's range is gigantic with only stretch, it 1 shots all mobs up to level ~35 then when combined with a bit of AOE on venom it can kill up to level ~50 with just venom + miasma combo. I don't understand why you're trying to say it's bad, have you used other ultimates? Volt's? Garbage, long animation you're vulnerable during, very delayed stun, very subpar damage. Excalibur's? Complete and utter garbage, CC's you for 3.5s, you need to be very close to mobs and in LOS to use it and you're not invincible during it. Nekros ult? Basically a "I want to die" button, such a long animation, really holds it back from being great. Miasma is great, it's quick, fast, huge damage, huge range, castable through walls and out of LOS of gunfire and makes you invincible for the entire cast animation.

 

Saryn is a fantastic frame and barely needs any adjustments, only a buff to her 3, every skill she has is good and has a use. I use all of her skills regulary except for her 3, but I keep it up fulltime when I melee. Perhaps adding damage reduction or making it AOE or something would be good for it, maybe life leech or shield steal or something, but free ~+100%with just intensify) added toxin damage at all times is still a great skill. All her skills are good. You cannot say that for most warframes in this game, I would rather they spend time on making subpar warframes up to saryn's level instead of buffing saryn even further when she's already great.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kiaru

[Recovery8]

I would have to disagree Kiaru, it's not that she is bad it is that she is an older frame that has -some- issues. Miasma is about the only ability people tend to us on her for exactly what you said but then again it's not the problem. The problem is that her three and her two are so lack luster that it is difficult to justify using them.

 

To add to the thread someone on mine brought up the idea of getting a small heal for every spore on enemies, it's something to make note of.

[Kiaru]

I would have to disagree Kiaru, it's not that she is bad it is that she is an older frame that has -some- issues. Miasma is about the only ability people tend to us on her for exactly what you said but then again it's not the problem. The problem is that her three and her two are so lack luster that it is difficult to justify using them.

 

To add to the thread someone on mine brought up the idea of getting a small heal for every spore on enemies, it's something to make note of.

Giving her self healing would be really cool and interesting, she's kinda like a DOT class and they usually have self healing from draining HP from enemies. I was confused why she had none.

[MechaKnight]

Miasma makes you invincible for 1s and it's range is gigantic with only stretch, it 1 shots all mobs up to level ~35 then when combined with a bit of AOE on venom it can kill up to level ~50 with just venom + miasma combo. I don't understand why you're trying to say it's bad, have you used other ultimates? Volt's? Garbage, long animation you're vulnerable during, very delayed stun, very subpar damage. Excalibur's? Complete and utter garbage, CC's you for 3.5s, you need to be very close to mobs and in LOS to use it and you're not invincible during it. Nekros ult? Basically a "I want to die" button, such a long animation, really holds it back from being great. Miasma is great, it's quick, fast, huge damage, huge range, castable through walls and out of LOS of gunfire and makes you invincible for the entire cast animation.

 

Saryn is a fantastic frame and barely needs any adjustments, only a buff to her 3, every skill she has is good and has a use. I use all of her skills regulary except for her 3, but I keep it up fulltime when I melee. Perhaps adding damage reduction or making it AOE or something would be good for it, maybe life leech or shield steal or something, but free ~+100%with just intensify) added toxin damage at all times is still a great skill. All her skills are good. You cannot say that for most warframes in this game, I would rather they spend time on making subpar warframes up to saryn's level instead of buffing saryn even further when she's already great.

 

Let me deliver you some canned responses. From this one thread.

 

Opening post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/#entry2601886

Rhino, Frost, Ash, and other warframes are invincible during their 4th ability as well, but I'm not saying some warframes are not invulnerable during theirs. Did you not read my thread? Same for Banshee. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2626971

 

Also, you want power on an ability? Let's talk about Nova's insane power with tons of range, support, and damage. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-2#entry2607021

 

Also, Excaliber's 4th ability lacks CC. it's in his second ability, which has decent CC. It's a strange developer decision. Cited here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

 

As for Nekros, I agree. He's restricted to an overglorified RNG roller build on Desecrate, meanwhile his other skills may need work, and Shadows of the Dead definitely needs work.

 

Also, scroll back to other posts. Like these:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2611236

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2613792

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2621873

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2622945

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2626971

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2624403

 

Many citations, at least, in only this one forum thread. And there are other threads.

 

Please read before posting. This goes for this forum thread and all others. Once you've read those and have done some more research, you'll understand.

Edited May 5, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Synville]

I just want to say...

 

Thanks MechaKnight. Simply for being to draw out the people that actually care about Saryn.

Makes me happy. As weird as that sounds.

Anyways yes.

@Recovery8

That idea sounds interesting. Really, really interesting. Then again, she'd be the only frame (aside from Valkyr's ult) capable of healing from dealing damage. Not sure if DE will even do that. ;  -;