Saryn. Anyone Remember Her? [The Unnofficial Saryn Rework Thread]

[Kiaru]

Let me deliver you some canned responses. From this one thread.

 

Opening post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/#entry2601886

Rhino, Frost, Ash, and other warframes are invincible during their 4th ability as well, but I'm not saying some warframes are not invulnerable during theirs. Did you not read my thread? Same for Banshee. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2626971

 

Also, you want power on an ability? Let's talk about Nova's insane power with tons of range, support, and damage. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-2#entry2607021

 

Also, Excaliber's 4th ability lacks CC. it's in his second ability, which has decent CC. It's a strange developer decision. Cited here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

 

As for Nekros, I agree. He's restricted to an overglorified RNG roller build on Desecrate, meanwhile his other skills may need work, and Shadows of the Dead definitely needs work.

 

Also, scroll back to other posts. Like these:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2611236

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2613792

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2621873

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-3#entry2622945

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2626971

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2624403

 

Many citations, at least, in only this one forum thread. And there are other threads.

 

Please read before posting. This goes for this forum thread and all others. Once you've read those and have done some more research, you'll understand.

I don't need to read your posts to know what you're trying to buff a frame that simply needs a minor buff to her 3 and is overall perfectly fine. She isn't top tier like Nova/Rhino/trinity, but she is right below them. There are like 8 complete garbage tier frames that need looked at waaay before a frame with 3 great abilities do. Stop copy/pasting stuff.

[Tarille]

That idea sounds interesting. Really, really interesting. Then again, she'd be the only frame (aside from Valkyr's ult) capable of healing from dealing damage. Not sure if DE will even do that. ;  -;

Technically, since the addition of Life Strike, all Frames can heal by doing damage (Albeit, via melee only - But still, healing from dealing damage) - Also Trinity DOES in fact have a skill that causes people to heal from dealing damage. It might not be used ever, but it does exist.

 

On Topic:

 

I personally feel that Saryn is right on the edge of being the perfect frame, only needing minor buffs to 3 of her abilities and an overhaul of 1 of them.

 

She's currently the closest thing to the Tank-Mage archetype in Warframe. She's also very close to cementing a place in the game as a debuffer (Always a very nice thing to have on a team - Especially when you consider how many people use Corrosive Projection for late game stuff)

 

Venom really just needs some way of spreading when a target dies prematurely - I can consistently hit the spores with my Soma using Shred BUT a lot of the time (Even in T3 Void missions) the same shot that hits a spore, also kills the target (Especially due to how quickly Viral procs on the initial target with so many spores up) and stops the spore popping and removes all the spores from the target. - Slight changes to this could be as simple as allowing corpses to keep spores on them and still be poppable or just auto-detonating spores upon death.

 

Molt just needs a fix of its damage point so it's less buggy, an increase in aggro (Making it on par with Decoy would be great) and ideally having Gas damage and high proc chance would be pretty nice for covering more Debuffs as well as making it slightly more effective in its damaging role.

 

Contagion needs a rework - I've outlined ideas in this thread previously (AoE Toxin aura/Mobility move with Toxin damage/Toxin DoT that can spread each tick) - Ideally it should be an ability that meshes well with the rest of the toolset available and be a source of Toxin damage and Procs.

 

Miasma, could do with a bit more range and having higher proc chance would allow this to fit into a Debuffers toolkit - Rather than being used solely in a Fleeting Build (Much to the detriment of other skills) to perform damage - Especially as fixed damage abilities do tend to fall off at higher levels. I personally don't care much for the CC - There are other frames to use for CC such as Booben or Rhino and to an extent Nova. If Saryn wants to compete with those frames in terms of viability, copying their toolkit is not the way to do it. I'd rather bring out a niche role specifically for Saryn - One of being a debuffer.

 

Just imagine that for a moment - A team where you get CC from someone like Rhino or Booben, Support from a Trinity/Oberon/Nekros in the form of health/Energy while a Saryn completely neutralizes enemies defences via Viral procs, Corrosive procs and ticks of Toxin damage/Procs leaving an Ember/Nova/Whatever frame to bring the deeps to mop up.

 

A place where Saryn can shine, without having to copy other OP Frames abilities - It's just so close, only a few small tweaks away...

[MechaKnight]

I don't need to read your posts to know what you're trying to buff a frame that simply needs a minor buff to her 3 and is overall perfectly fine. She isn't top tier like Nova/Rhino/trinity, but she is right below them. There are like 8 complete garbage tier frames that need looked at waaay before a frame with 3 great abilities do. Stop copy/pasting stuff.

Oh, you don't like reading. Maybe forums aren't for you.

 

You didn't read to understand all the warframes I mentioned in this thread that do need buffing alongside Saryn.

 

 

Miasma makes you invincible for 1s and it's range is gigantic with only stretch,

 

Read this post https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2623931

The only warframe that needs stretch at all is Saryn, and possibly Oberon--but he does more than just damage.

 

 have you used other ultimates?

This school of thought needs to be buried. Ability #4 is not the reason you play a warframe. We have 4 abilities, not one. Anyone who's played Excaliber, Frost, Rhino, Nova, Oberon, Trinity, Nekros, Valkyr, and other warframes understand the point of having more than one skill. The fact that Saryn needs so many mods to make Miasma good, and the fact that it directly conflicts with her 3 other skills limits her like no other warframe is limited to, unless it's Nekros with an infinite Desecrate build or such.

 

 

 

Saryn is a fantastic frame and barely needs any adjustments, only a buff to her 3, every skill she has is good and has a use.

You admit you didn't read my thread, so here it is in simple terms for you to understand. I never said all of her abilities are useless, but they contradict each other in ways such that you can't seem to choose a build that is on even ground with many other warframes. The abilities also need some minor changes to get them up to par. Especially the problem with the inverse-duration calculation on Miasma. It really is choosing 1 ability against 3.

 Even you say Contagion is bad. it really is.

 

And that's ultimately the problem with why people don't read threads when they should. I've covered all of those points. You could have satisfied yourself instead of depending on someone else to feed it to you.

 

This is not the only warframe that needs buffing. However, its complexities are such that it can literally take up an entire thread due to the calculations and considerations involved.

Edited May 6, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

Technically, since the addition of Life Strike, all Frames can heal by doing damage (Albeit, via melee only - But still, healing from dealing damage) - Also Trinity DOES in fact have a skill that causes people to heal from dealing damage. It might not be used ever, but it does exist.

 

On Topic:

 

I personally feel that Saryn is right on the edge of being the perfect frame, only needing minor buffs to 3 of her abilities and an overhaul of 1 of them.

 

She's currently the closest thing to the Tank-Mage archetype in Warframe. She's also very close to cementing a place in the game as a debuffer (Always a very nice thing to have on a team - Especially when you consider how many people use Corrosive Projection for late game stuff)

 

Venom really just needs some way of spreading when a target dies prematurely - I can consistently hit the spores with my Soma using Shred BUT a lot of the time (Even in T3 Void missions) the same shot that hits a spore, also kills the target (Especially due to how quickly Viral procs on the initial target with so many spores up) and stops the spore popping and removes all the spores from the target. - Slight changes to this could be as simple as allowing corpses to keep spores on them and still be poppable or just auto-detonating spores upon death.

 

Molt just needs a fix of its damage point so it's less buggy, an increase in aggro (Making it on par with Decoy would be great) and ideally having Gas damage and high proc chance would be pretty nice for covering more Debuffs as well as making it slightly more effective in its damaging role.

 

Contagion needs a rework - I've outlined ideas in this thread previously (AoE Toxin aura/Mobility move with Toxin damage/Toxin DoT that can spread each tick) - Ideally it should be an ability that meshes well with the rest of the toolset available and be a source of Toxin damage and Procs.

 

Miasma, could do with a bit more range and having higher proc chance would allow this to fit into a Debuffers toolkit - Rather than being used solely in a Fleeting Build (Much to the detriment of other skills) to perform damage - Especially as fixed damage abilities do tend to fall off at higher levels. I personally don't care much for the CC - There are other frames to use for CC such as Booben or Rhino and to an extent Nova. If Saryn wants to compete with those frames in terms of viability, copying their toolkit is not the way to do it. I'd rather bring out a niche role specifically for Saryn - One of being a debuffer.

 

Just imagine that for a moment - A team where you get CC from someone like Rhino or Booben, Support from a Trinity/Oberon/Nekros in the form of health/Energy while a Saryn completely neutralizes enemies defences via Viral procs, Corrosive procs and ticks of Toxin damage/Procs leaving an Ember/Nova/Whatever frame to bring the deeps to mop up.

 

A place where Saryn can shine, without having to copy other OP Frames abilities - It's just so close, only a few small tweaks away...

Wonderful addition. So many people focus on damage for the 4th ability. I really want her to be a debuffer. However, she needs a form of personal protection and/or crowd control. Miasma is severely lacking there. So is Molt.

[RealPandemonium]

She's not well armored compared to tanky frames like Rhino, Frost, and Valkyr

Here are some survivability values for warframes of varying defense stat values, listed in order of most to least overall survivability (only Frost's stat helmets were taken into account and are noted in the tables) (Note: Frost without stat helmets is the same as Rhino) :

This table shows base effective HP without Steel Fiber equipped vs with max Steel Fiber equipped, assuming that both max Vitality and max Vigor are also equipped.

 

Valkyr 2580 | 4472

Saryn 1956 | 2689

 

Frost 1463 | 2032 (Aurora Helmet equipped)

Rhino 1404 | 2003

Ash 1569 | 1876

 

Zephyr 1354 | 1425

Excalibur 1046 | 1251

 

Nova 1046 | 1251

 

Volt 903 | 950

 

Banshee 903 | 950

Loki 784 | 938

 

 

This table shows survivability values assuming max Redirection, max Vitality, max Vigor, and max Steel Fiber are equipped (maximum possible defense barring Quick Thinking, Shock Absorbers, element resistance mods, etc.) in the first column. The second column shows how much continuous or burst damage the frames could receive in one shot, assuming that Guardian is off cooldown (same mod setup.)

 

Valkyr 4902 | 5332

Frost 3322 | 4612 (Aurora helmet equipped)

Rhino 3293 | 4583

 

Saryn 3549 | 4409

Zephyr 2715 | 4005

Ash 2736 | 3596

Volt 2240 | 3530

Excalibur 2111 | 2971

Banshee 1810 | 2670

Nova 1896 | 2541

Loki 1583 | 2228

 

 

This table is the same as the above table except it removes Redirection from Valkyr, removes Frost's Aurora Helmet, and removes Steel Fiber from all frames that have less than 100 armor to give more realistic values since those frames wouldn't usually equip those items even when building for durability.

Valkyr 4682 | 4892

Saryn 3549 | 4409

Rhino 3293 | 4583

Frost 3228 | 4453 (Squall Helmet Equipped)

Zephyr 2644 | 3934

 

Volt 2193 | 3483

Ash 2429 | 3289

Excalibur 1906 | 2766

Banshee 1763 | 2623

Nova 1691 | 2336

Loki 1429 | 2074

 

 

 

This table is the same as the table above it except it removes Steel Fiber from all frames (even Valkyr.)  Note that Frost's Aurora helmet is also absent.  Most frames don't have a slot to spare for Steel Fiber most of the time so this gives an even more accurate picture of effective health values (except for Valkyr, who benefits too much from Steel Fiber to go without it.)

 

Saryn      2816 | 3676

 

Rhino      2694 | 3984

 

Frost      2629 | 3854 (Squall Helmet equipped)

Zephyr     2644 | 3934

 

Volt       2193 | 3483

 

Ash        2429 | 3289

 

Valkyr     2790 | 3000

 

Excalibur  1906 | 2766

 

Banshee    1763 | 2623

 

Nova       1691 | 2336

 

Loki       1429 | 2074

Saryn is the second most durable warframe in the game overall, going by this comparison. I hope these also shed some light on relative durability across all warframes. Keep in mind that this ranking doesn't take abilities into account; frames like Rhino and Nova, for example, would be ranked higher if that were the case (the stun and invincibility on Miasma as well as the usefulness of Molt as a decoy would keep Saryn at #2, tied with Rhino, IMO.) Trinity renders this whole comparison pointless, for obvious reasons.

 

 

Volt's? Garbage, long animation you're vulnerable during, very delayed stun, very subpar damage.

Volt's 4 is excellent because he recovers before the enemies recover from their stuns (especially with Natural Talent equipped) and covers a large area in addition to having the huge damage (and stun) bonus from electronics on the first cast in each tile. The damage is poor vs Grineer but the stun is still reliable. With an efficiency build you can lay down a lot of CC for your team and some formidable damage initially, while saving energy by using Shock when you aren't surrounded.  It may have been updated since the last time you played Volt so I invite you to try the ability again.  

 

Edit: Added a fourth table.

Edited May 9, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Synville]

Wonderful addition. So many people focus on damage for the 4th ability. I really want her to be a debuffer. However, she needs a form of personal protection and/or crowd control. Miasma is severely lacking there. So is Molt.

Debuffer? Sorta like... a warlock? Sounds fitting. (You might not get that analogy... it's fine. e.e)

[MechaKnight]

*snipped survivability table*

Saryn is the second most durable warframe in the game overall, going by this comparison. I hope these also shed some light on relative durability across all warframes. Keep in mind that this ranking doesn't take abilities into account; frames like Rhino and Nova, for example, would be ranked higher if that were the case (the stun and invincibility on Miasma as well as the usefulness of Molt as a decoy would keep Saryn at #2, tied with Rhino, IMO.) Trinity renders this whole comparison pointless, for obvious reasons.

 

 

Volt's 4 is excellent because he recovers before the enemies recover from their stuns (especially with Natural Talent equipped) and covers a large area in addition to having the huge damage (and stun) bonus from electronics on the first cast in each tile. The damage is poor vs Grineer but the stun is still reliable. With an efficiency build you can lay down a lot of CC for your team and some formidable damage initially, while saving energy by using Shock when you aren't surrounded.  It may have been updated since the last time you played Volt so I invite you to try the ability again.  

 

Good info, that's the kind of help this thread needs. Saryn can be solid, especially considering her higher base health. It's a converging theme on Saryn and Valkyr that they can dip into their health pools more frequently than other warframes, but at the same time it can be a hindrance due to frequent use of Steel Fiber taking up a slot, and health points not regenerating without an aura. Valkyr has an ability with lifesteal to regain health.Although melee 2.0 introduced a mod for it, it comes at the cost of using a slot, and reducing channeling efficiency by 140%. How to complement this? Contagion can be buffed in many ways, but one of the most crucial is including increased durability for this period of predominant melee activity, and lifesteal per hit. That would fix the sensation of not being as tanky as you'd want to be for melee.

 

I did discuss Miasma needing a range boost. It does, but a form of damage mitigation and crowd control in another skill would help alleviate the focus on that one skill. That and fixing the dreaded build-breaker calculation without severely damaging the ability.

 

I will say however that I think Rhino is still superior in survivability. With the Vanguard Prime setup, he has more speed on top of his Iron Skin and shields. What's important to remember about enemies is that their X-axis aiming isn't instantaneous or else we would see immersion-breaking rotating on enemies. Speed can function as a form of protection, in particular when strafing around an enemy that's too slow to track you. Nova is extremely survivable because of this. She can slow them, then run around them without taking hits. Rhino's speed setup can act similarly.

 

 

Debuffer? Sorta like... a warlock? Sounds fitting. (You might not get that analogy... it's fine. e.e)

I've done plenty of genres. Yes, I've played with spellcasters that inflict DoTs, summon, and inflict harmful effects on enemies.

Edited May 6, 2014 by MechaKnight

[RealPandemonium]

I will say however that I think Rhino is still superior in survivability. With the Vanguard Prime setup, he has more speed on top of his Iron Skin and shields. What's important to remember about enemies is that their X-axis aiming isn't instantaneous or else we would see immersion-breaking rotating on enemies. Speed can function as a form of protection, in particular when strafing around an enemy that's too slow to track you. Nova is extremely survivable because of this. She can slow them, then run around them without taking hits. Rhino's speed setup can act similarly.

As far as speed goes all frames are pretty much the same to me unless wielding a heavy weapon due to coptering.  They should allow heavy weapons to copter to some extent.  It would be a bandaid fix but it would solve these speed disparity problems without having to reinvent the wheel with a "Speed 2.0."

[Tarille]

Was just thinking about Miasma...

 

Was also thinking about the character Dazzle from Dota 2...

 

Dazzle in Dota 2 has an ultimate that is an AoE that increases armour of allied heroes and reduces armour of enemy heroes. It used to be that it changed armour values by 1 per second and ranking it up or upgrading it with an item increased the duration of the skill and thus increased the maximum armour change.

 

Later, this was changed so that it always lasted the same amount of time regardless of rank or whether it was upgraded, but instead ranks and upgrades caused it to tick faster and thus hit the same values in a faster time.

 

Perhaps a similar thing could be used for Miasma - Instead of duration mods affecting duration as they currently do, what if Miasma had a fixed duration and the mods just affected how quickly it ticked. Allowing for something like a Fleeting Build with low duration to have few ticks but at high damage (Like currently) while lots of duration would allow for many ticks in a short amount of time, which with high status chance would mean a very good chance to do heavy debuffing.

[UncommonUnicorn]

Remember her?

I play her almost exclusively.

[AscendantWyvern]

 

 

Miasma: It could use more range, and more proc chance. Otherwise, okay.

I disagree with this if only to add to Miasma's niche of being short ranged, and deadly.

 

Increase damage and make the damage scale positively with duration mods (As opposed to the current inverse which is present...for who knows why) 

 

This will create a build synergy with the rest of her abilities (which focus on damage and duration) while keeping her within a boundary that keeps her in check.

[MechaKnight]

Was just thinking about Miasma...

 

Was also thinking about the character Dazzle from Dota 2...

 

Dazzle in Dota 2 has an ultimate that is an AoE that increases armour of allied heroes and reduces armour of enemy heroes. It used to be that it changed armour values by 1 per second and ranking it up or upgrading it with an item increased the duration of the skill and thus increased the maximum armour change.

 

Later, this was changed so that it always lasted the same amount of time regardless of rank or whether it was upgraded, but instead ranks and upgrades caused it to tick faster and thus hit the same values in a faster time.

 

Perhaps a similar thing could be used for Miasma - Instead of duration mods affecting duration as they currently do, what if Miasma had a fixed duration and the mods just affected how quickly it ticked. Allowing for something like a Fleeting Build with low duration to have few ticks but at high damage (Like currently) while lots of duration would allow for many ticks in a short amount of time, which with high status chance would mean a very good chance to do heavy debuffing.

 

Good idea on the team buff aspect, but unfortunately the proc chance may not fix the problem. See here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224577-saryn-anyone-remember-her/page-4#entry2624403

 

 

Hmmm. The problem that I have with leaving the damage calculation as it is while significantly increasing the status chance is that the -25% armor reduction has diminishing returns. Even with a 50% status chance, there is a 37.5% probability that the armor debuff will proc twice with the full minimum-duration build (2 damage ticks and 1 reduced damage tick). An enemy with 1000 armor will have 750 armor after one debuff, 562 after two, 421 after three, and so on. The amount of armor reduction decreases with each subsequent proc.

It would be more beneficial to have a high-damage Miasma that lasts less than a couple of seconds, costs 25 energy, suffers no range reduction, has a high chance to reduce the target's armor by the maximum amount in one instance, and can still inflict high-damage to non-armored targets. Compare this to a lower-damage Miasma that lasts 10.28 seconds, has a 22.6% probability to proc six times (1000 armor ---> 177 armor), costs 70 energy with Streamline, has an 11.9 meter-radius with Narrow Minded and Stretch, and inflicts significantly less damage to non-armored targets.

The armor reduction in the latter case is superior, but considering all of the other costs by going with this build, I don't think it would be worth it. This is why I think the damage calculation needs to be reevaluated to ensure that the total damage is unaffected by power duration. The benefit of going minimum duration with constant total damage is still present: high-DPS, very low energy cost, and still has a good chance to apply the armor debuff once or twice assuming a 50% status chance. Against Grineer, going the maximum-duration build might be worth the range loss, higher energy cost, and lower-DPS considering Miasma will have a greater chance to reduce armor even further, while inflicting higher total damage than the minimum-duration build against armored targets.

 

 

 

I disagree with this if only to add to Miasma's niche of being short ranged, and deadly.

 

Increase damage and make the damage scale positively with duration mods (As opposed to the current inverse which is present...for who knows why) 

 

This will create a build synergy with the rest of her abilities (which focus on damage and duration) while keeping her within a boundary that keeps her in check.

Well, the range was honestly the first idea that came to mind to help Saryn's severe lack of crowd control, which Oberon also has on a nearly even basis--hence why he's on the buff table. However, if Contagion were to have toxic emanation (many earlier posts, Archwizard's Abilities 2.0, and other threads mention this concept), she can make up for it. Also, if Molt had an increased threat generation buff and a health increase from 500 to 1200 (Iron Skin health), that would help her crowd control considerably. The only reason I suggest Molt have Iron Skin health is because she places it at her current location, and since it can't dodge (since it's not attached to her), it will blindly take all 1200 points of damage instantly. At least Rhino can move. And as of current release, he moves fast.

 

So maybe Miasma doesn't need more range, but Saryn does need a form of damage reduction and/or additional crowd control abilities.

Edited May 7, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Vargras]

I come bearing gifts! The following was a message I sent to Rebecca, about Saryn (and also the Attica).

[Synville]

^  ;     -;

 

That's all I need to say here.

[MlSTGUN]

she's still needs a buff soon

[MechaKnight]

I come bearing gifts! The following was a message I sent to Rebecca, about Saryn (and also the Attica).

Quoted for milestone achieved! We got approval. All focus on this thread is for balanced buffing from now on.

[Soulden]

Hi guys. Was reading this post after 40 some hours of playing Saryn, shes a beauty.

 

I see most want a damage, range, or both buff.

I would appreciate some utility instead.

Pretty sure others might have suggested this already, my apologies in advance.

 

Only two skills trouble me at the moment, that's Molt and Contagion.

 

Whats your opinion on adding a short duration blind to Molt explosion when it gets destroyed? 

You know, it burns!!!!!

It could provide squad support without entirely reworking the ability.

 

And how you guys feel about Contagion being a reversed version of Venom?

The spores grow on you granting your melee weapon the additional buff it does now (and puts you on melee stance), but if the enemy destroys it, it deals /toxic/gas/corrosive damage - up to DE - to nearby enemies.

After all, best time to use Contagion is withing melee range of an enemy.

 

Just got an idea for Venom, but it might get laughed at...

Why not make Venom a leaping attack that inflicts toxin damage over time on the target?

Remove the spores and spreads and there is a mobility ability. =)

 

Scratch that last idea...I just enjoy Saryn a bit too much to think from a non bias pov.

[Synville]

Hi guys. Was reading this post after 40 some hours of playing Saryn, shes a beauty.

 

I see most want a damage, range, or both buff.

I would appreciate some utility instead.

Pretty sure others might have suggested this already, my apologies in advance.

 

Only two skills trouble me at the moment, that's Molt and Contagion.

 

Whats your opinion on adding a short duration blind to Molt explosion when it gets destroyed? 

You know, it burns!!!!!

It could provide squad support without entirely reworking the ability.

 

And how you guys feel about Contagion being a reversed version of Venom?

The spores grow on you granting your melee weapon the additional buff it does now (and puts you on melee stance), but if the enemy destroys it, it deals /toxic/gas/corrosive damage - up to DE - to nearby enemies.

After all, best time to use Contagion is withing melee range of an enemy.

 

Just got an idea for Venom, but it might get laughed at...

Why not make Venom a leaping attack that inflicts toxin damage over time on the target?

Remove the spores and spreads and there is a mobility ability. =)

 

Scratch that last idea...I just enjoy Saryn a bit too much to think from a non bias pov.

Those are some fantastic ideas.

Molt having a stun would be gggggreat. Not sure if "blind" is the best way to put it. But yes.

That Contagion idea is really good too.

And Venom having the mobility is great. It's something Saryn need. :l

10/10

 

Edit: Scratch that. 11/10.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Synville

[MechaKnight]

 

Hi guys. Was reading this post after 40 some hours of playing Saryn, shes a beauty.

 

I see most want a damage, range, or both buff.

I would appreciate some utility instead.

Pretty sure others might have suggested this already, my apologies in advance.

 

Only two skills trouble me at the moment, that's Molt and Contagion.

 

Whats your opinion on adding a short duration blind to Molt explosion when it gets destroyed? 

You know, it burns!!!!!

It could provide squad support without entirely reworking the ability.

 

And how you guys feel about Contagion being a reversed version of Venom?

The spores grow on you granting your melee weapon the additional buff it does now (and puts you on melee stance), but if the enemy destroys it, it deals /toxic/gas/corrosive damage - up to DE - to nearby enemies.

After all, best time to use Contagion is withing melee range of an enemy.

 

Just got an idea for Venom, but it might get laughed at...

Why not make Venom a leaping attack that inflicts toxin damage over time on the target?

Remove the spores and spreads and there is a mobility ability. =)

 

Scratch that last idea...I just enjoy Saryn a bit too much to think from a non bias pov.

 

 

Those are some fantastic ideas.

Molt having a stun would be gggggreat. Not sure if "blind" is the best way to put it. But yes.

That Contagion idea is really good too.

And Venom having the mobility is great. It's something Saryn need. :l

10/10

 

Edit: Scratch that. 11/10.

Awesome. Thanks for the contribution!

[MechaKnight]

Prime Time 28 coming up! I've been busy with various things, but I'll rekindle this thread with a template which we can build on. The idea is to buff Saryn with balance, and make it simple for DE to read. Here's the template:

 

Ability

>The feature and its problem--abilities can have multiple features up for discussion.

>>Solutions: Various ways to fix the problem. There can be multiple solution sections under each ability feature, for various ways of addressing the problem.

 

>>>Priority: How important and immediate it should hit the development table compared to the other fixes on this warframe. Sorted from 1 (very low) to 5 (very high).

>>>>Reason: the reason for your priority level on those fixes.

 

Miscellaneous: Anything else about the Warframe that should be fixed that's not an ability. You can leave this section blank/excluded since it's not high priority.

 

I will use said template to get closer to our final draft when I find time. Feel free to use the template and help if you wish.

Edited May 15, 2014 by MechaKnight

[MechaKnight]

So DE just released the buffs listed here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/230632-warframe-ability-changes/

So far, the released changes focus on toggles (Banshee and Nyx), proc chance (Ash), and increased teamwork focus (Banshee, Trinity, and Volt).

 

I'll get make a quick draft of one example for a Saryn rebalance using the previous info and the above template. It's in no means final, but should be decent.

 

Venom

>Awkward spread mechanic: Enemies are killed very frequently before the spores pop or spread, so some players see this ability as a waste of energy.

 

>>Solutions: Give a % chance that the enemy will spread spores on death. Anywhere from small to 100% granted, it should help with general usage.

 

>>>Priority: 2-Low

 

>>>>Reason: It's a good change, but Venom works well enough despite this problem. There are more urgent things to fix.

 

Molt

>Does not perform well defensively: Molt only has 400 health compared to Iron Skin's 1200, and the Molt doesn't move. As what is supposed to be Saryn's primary form of self-protection, it's rather fragile. It also doesn't seem to hold attention well, given that the player is at the center or the decoy initially, and tends to hold enemy attention as they're fleeing. Molt has no damage reduction, cloaking, or enemy stun past its short threat generation range and low HP, so it generally comes across as insufficient for its defense role.

 

>>Solutions: Buff the HP on it to at least 1200, increase the enemy's attention to it, give Saryn a temporary defense buff, temporary cloak, or temporary enemy stun.

 

>>>Priority: 4-High

 

>>>>Reason: Regardless of what role this warframe would have on a team, it is the only warframe in the game as of now that does not posses any of these qualities in an ability: damage reduction, cloaking, shielding, healing, and enemy stun on an ability that does not cost 100 energy (is a tier 4 ability). Be it in Molt or Contagion, Saryn needs a satisfactory form of self defense.

 

Contagion

>Utterly horrible: We don't see very many players who actually like the way this skill is conceived currently. For damage, it scales in a sub-par manner compared to abilities. For utility, it is purely restricted to melee, and some players do not like how the poison element alters their carefully prepared elemental combos on their melee weapon. For defense, it doesn't give any of the aforementioned qualities above. Generally, melee warframe abilities focus on: cloaking, damage reduction, healing, damage dealing. Contagion doesn't do any of these well enough.

 

>>Solutions: Many solutions. Fixing any of the aforementioned problems can help. There are also more interesting ways to rebuild this ability, such as toxic emanation, a rework of the old Overheat, general damage reduction, counter-offensive damage dealing, energy/health generation per hit, use on other weapons besides melee, teamwork aspect that helps the team, and many, many more. I also highly recommend that one or more of the above solutions be implemented as a toggle. It's a very new concept to warframe abilities, but I like where it's going and this can really help make Saryn more fun, and decrease the usual effort required to play her. Okay, there's a lot of anger due to the way toggles sap energy at astonishing rates. Let's not implement toggles for now.

 

>>>Priority: 5-Very High

 

>>>>Reason: Definitely the worst skill in her ability kit, to which nobody has denied. Rarely spoken of, except to say it is awful. Depending on how this skill is buffed, or completely remade, or completely replaced, it can vastly improve Saryn's play experience. I highly recommend this skill be tackled first.

 

Miasma

>Inverse damage calculation completely countering her other three skills: I am very, very sure DE is working on patching this up since they've played her to see the odd situation. However, this skill is already on the precarious position of being inefficient to other skills in terms of range and enemy-stun, so the proportional damage this skill has should either be considerably high as a balance, or it should have comparably useful utility to gameplay and teamwork, or this skill should be granted greater range and stun duration as compensation.

 

>>Solutions: Remove the inverse damage calculation in favor of one more fitting. To match most other warframe abilities, I recommend removing the duration component entirely, but with consideration that the skill also be made intuitively helpful to the player and their team in an agreeable form.

 

>>>Priority: 4-High

 

>>>>Reason: It is a tier 4 ability with a cost of 100. For most warframes, it should be a skill to be used when it is desperately needed, and a skill that is very helpful. It definitely needs a change to synchronize with her other three abilities, but it can also stand to do better to cover the warframe's lack of protection, or her lack of range, or her lack of crowd-control compared to other warframes However, these problems can also be addressed in other ways, and in other abilities.

 

 

Miscellaneous

>Awkward Name compared to Contagion

>>Solutions: Swap the names between Venom and Contagion, or otherwise make them more fitting.

>>>Priority: 1-Very Low

>>>>Reason: It's an extremely minor change that doesn't effect gameplay, but in its own right some people do want this change.

 

This post will be mirrored on the opening post. Changes and additions to this draft will be made in the opening post, or in subsequent responses to this thread.

Edited May 15, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Artistical]

I am a Saryn user, and it's amazing how underused his abilities go. While I think that Molt has its uses, it falls behind even Loki's decoy. In a nutshell, Saryn just can't keep up in terms of damage. I use her because her tank is extraordinary, especially with max Vitality and Steel Fiber, but she becomes a sub-par choice for the later stages of Endless Defense or Survival. I wholeheartedly agree with MechaKnight in his drafts, especially in the priority for Contagion (an ability that I never ever use), and the damage calculation for Miasma.

[iexzel13]

i think im the only player playing Saryn...honestly, i only use molt and miasma...forma her twice...and she's my most used frame...i would be very happy seeing her Prime...but pls dont make a weird helmet...make her look like Black Lotus/Black King on Accel World (LoL)

[MechaKnight]

So during the last livestream, talk was done about toggles being put on certain warframe skills, and tweaking the efficiency of the toggles on energy consumption. Previously on the forums, it was met with mixed opinions ranging from unnecessary energy inefficiency to players becoming lazy. I have no opinion on it as of now in respect to Saryn, that wouldn't be the worst thing that's already happened to her ability set. It could be an option for Contagion so long as the skill performs better.

And the name slip from Megan during the extraneous

. At least the warframe is on their minds. Edited May 30, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Noble_Cactus]

Hmm, have you consider the possibility of Molt wiping debuffs? It's an idea that's been received with praise in the past, and it fits the skill thematically. Plus, it would give Saryn a unique for of tankiness that potentially scales infinitely (maybe it could also prevent debuffs a few seconds after the cast so she doesn't waste energy when it's beyond her control? i.e. casting Molt when on fire from a Napalm blast, only to catch fire again right afterward due to the floor being covered with fire puddles ). Or it could provide a HoT after shedding the skin, or as enemies take damage from the detonation DoT. Just some food for thought.

Looking at the proposed Molecular Prime change reminded me of a similar idea I had a while back for Miasma. Upon casting, Saryn generates a mist of corrosive acid (an actual miasma) that grows in size from its original casting point. Proc chance and damage per tick increases as enemies stand in the miasma or as the skill persists. In this regard it could also be channeled, though that could tread on World on Fire's role if the cloud follows Saryn around.