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This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things. (Banshee Feedback Post-U13.3) Edit: 13.3.1


Sixty5
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For a long time people here have been crying out for Banshee buffs, and for just as long, I have been responding to them in kind. Stating that Banshee was a high skill cap frame, and that she is great once you learn to use her.

 

Unfortunately today DE decided to show that they had listened to those cries.

 

Half of Banshee's abilities are now broken in some way, and Silence as opposed to being useless now is alright and has absolutely no mod synergy with her other abilities.

 

 

Let me explain.

 

Sonar got a bit of a stealth buff in the update as far as I can tell. Its duration seems much larger than it was before. With my standard build it now lasts 38 seconds. Great right? Wrong.

Sonar can only now be recast once it goes down. With a 30 second base duration that means that for roughly half the duration of the ability it is wasted. Everything is dead, and the enemies now attacking you cannot receive that delicious debuff. Fleeting Expertise can fix this problem somewhat, but then you are left having to spam it more, and the reduced duration really starts to hurt once you start going deep

 

Sound Quake was also "fixed". It now has a 25 energy initial casting cost, which is reduced by power efficiency, with a constant drain on energy whilst active, this however cannot be modified at all from my testing. Hitting 4 will burn your energy.

However my real problem here is that the first tick of Quake now seems to occur slightly later than it used to, meaning that no matter what you do, tick for tick, you will always use more energy than you would have previously. The extra delay also means that enemies have that much extra time to shoot at you before the stagger takes place, making your life that much harder.

All these negative changes on a power that deals 200 base DPS, and was considered one of the weakest anyway.

 

Finally there is Silence, and I'll admit, I was pleasantly surprised at the new effects, however in my testing I found that it clashes rather heavily with the mods you need to build to get the most out of her other three powers, which are still better. Stretch is a vital mod on Banshee for her 1, 2 and 4, they all love that extra range, however running that extra range with Silence means that the delicious stun it gives is more often than not over by the time you can get into line of sight, wasting the opportunity it would otherwise give. Furthermore, Silence really loves its duration now, and as seen earlier running duration on Sonar completely gimps it.

 

Now you are left with three possible builds for Banshee, the same old 1, 2, 4, a Silence focus build or a hybrid build that tries to do everything. Again from testing, I have found that none of these builds work anywhere near as well as the pre-13.3 1, 2, 4 build that I'd been running since U8 in one form or another.

 

However there is hope, if the problems with her 2 and 4 are bugs, and are promptly fixed, Banshee can be great again. If not then congratulations DE, you have successfully nerfed one of the "weaker" frames in the game.

 

67739.gif

 

 

And this is why I prefer Nerfs to "Buffs"

 

Edit for changes from 13.3.1.

Ok so I've tested some stuff again.

 

Quake is now much better, the energy drain scales off of efficiency and therefore does not burn though your energy as fast.

It also seems like it ticks faster as well, so a potential DPS buff there.

 

Sonar is still broken whilst on host

 

So until DE actually make duration worth running again on Banshee this is pretty much what an optimal build looks like on her

vEeEVN2.jpg

 

Blind rage and streamline can be substituted for any two other (non duration) flavour mods you wish to use, Everything else is pretty much mandatory.

 

 

Edited by Sixty5
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I find it hilarious that Silence is actually more useful for direct combat now rather than stealth. Can't complain though, I call the new tactic of charging the enemy and mowing them down "stun and gun". I didn't notice the Sonar "nerf" though, I guess I gotta learn to spam that one more. It would be swell if they made Sonar follow you around as well so that way it continuously effects enemies on approach, but reverting it back to it's spammable state would suffice. :/

 

As for Sound Quake, it could definitely afford to be a bit more energy efficient, but I still call it an improvement overall. I'm just happy that I can finally say that all four of Banshee's abilities are mostly viable now.

 

Oh, and +1 for those suggested fixes.

Edited by Paradoxbomb
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I didn't even know about Sonar's issue. My heart hurts.

Let me put it into perspective. I cast Sonar at the start of a wave in T3 defense. The first bunch of enemies go down in ~10 seconds. The next bunch are still alive nearly 30 seconds later by the time I can cast Sonar again.

 

One enemy left alive and hiding? If I want to use Sonar to find it I can't recast it until enemies are right on top of the pod.

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I find it hilarious that Silence is actually more useful for direct combat now rather than stealth. Can't complain though, I call the new tactic of charging the enemy and mowing them down "stun and gun". I didn't notice the Sonar "nerf" though, I guess I gotta learn to spam that one more. It would be swell if they made Sonar follow you around as well, but reverting it back to it's spammable state would suffice. :/

 

As for Sound Quake, it could definitely afford to be a bit more energy efficient, but I still call it an improvement overall. I'm just happy that I can finally say that all four of Banshee's abilities are mostly viable now.

 

Oh, and +1 for those suggested fixes.

For the current cost of Quake I might as well spin around and mash Sonicboom. It's much less likely to get me killed now too.

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They need to make Sonar move with Banshee affecting enemies that enter the range just like Silence is working now.

I'd rather them just make it so that Sonar can be recast whenever you want. Tagging whole spawns with it and then retreating back to safety is a rather effective tactic.

 

 

Also, Relevant:

08fNdz4.png

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While I understand you are disappointed, I think this topic is a bit premature. You even said you aren't sure if sonar is working as intended.  I haven't played Banshee in some time, were you able to spam Sonar before?  Since no mention of it in the proposed changes I would think that it is just a bug or a mistake if its not working like before. Perhaps they were looking at making it move along with you like Silence and it wasn't reverted correctly. I would suggest posting in warframe feedback for Banshee looking clarification or notification from DE or making a support ticket and see if they can get you clarification.

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Thank you sixty5.

 

DE really should revert to let banshee cast her 3 before the timer wears off.  

 

This is a ludicrous nerf, and where I used to play her once every 30 games I think I will just lay her to rest beside my WORTHLESS super-forma'd acrid.

 

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE...I can now use none of her skills and just run around with a skill-less hero.  Heck maybe I will forma her.

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While I understand you are disappointed, I think this topic is a bit premature. You even said you aren't sure if sonar is working as intended.  I haven't played Banshee in some time, were you able to spam Sonar before?  Since no mention of it in the proposed changes I would think that it is just a bug or a mistake if its not working like before. Perhaps they were looking at making it move along with you like Silence and it wasn't reverted correctly. I would suggest posting in warframe feedback for Banshee looking clarification or notification from DE or making a support ticket and see if they can get you clarification.

I'd been hoping for a hotfix today to patch up those issues. 

 

The Sonar change I am guessing/hoping came with implementing the timer on it, and someone there just forgot to allow it to be recast. However as it is now running Sonar without Fleeting Expertise is stupid in any gamemode that you would actually need sonar in.

 

This topic is mostly to express my dis-satisfaction with how these changes were done, and to get the word out there. A support ticket is of little use in this sort of situation.

 

I guess I just have to wait until tomorrow for a hotfix. But that's fine since I'll be playing Skyrim until then anyway, since the frame that I enjoy playing the most is now pretty well broken 

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While I love the idea that less and less people are using Banshee, eventually making me the last of their kind, I have to point out to anyone thinking of building a Banshee that Sixty is being overly dramatic here, and slightly elitist by saying Banshee is a "high skill cap" warframe or whatever. But to be fair, I dont even know what that's supposed to mean lol

 

From reading the forums, ive come to the conclusion that players want/expect certain traits in powers and frames depending on their personal playstyle (I.E. a tank, a soloist, a casual, a support, someone who thinks the frames should be viable up to level 200 enemies when thats clearly not a situation the warframes are balanced for, etc.) 

 

I played Banshee for a few hours today and didn't notice any game-changing difference in the abilities. Why am I not in a kerfuffle like the OP? Most likely because we have different playstyles and/or play against different max enemy levels. (I exit around lv50 to 60 at most)

 

I never had the problem most seem to have had with getting killed while using SQ. My energy efficiency was terrible before anyway, now at least I can control the duration.

 

I dont use Sonar that often in solo play, my weapons are good enough that they can handle most things by shooting weak points, without the super damage boost Sonar gives. I use it more often in multiplayer as a benefit to the team, I usually go off and start whipping mobs, like unruly tigers lol. If there's a Nova around, why bother casting it.

 

I imagine all Banshees use Sonic Boom similarly.

 

I played with Silence a little, getting reaquainted with it after ignoring it for months, and I have to say I dont miss it. The stagger when you rush into a room full of enemies is cool though, you can blitz past them and slide to extraction. Still, I wont be using it, so Silence not synergizing with the other abilities doesnt bother me at all.

 

If you were to look at the mods on my warframe you wouldnt be able to tell if there's a reason for that specific config, because there isn't. Well, there's some thought put into it, but no overarching strategy, its mostly me that keeps that frame alive, not some broken combo.

 

Whatever DE does to the warframes, I'll find a way to adapt until theres absolutely no way to enjoy them anymore. Then I'll come to the boards and tell them how much they've ruined everything by listening to whiny players lol

Edited by DarkTails
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Sonar got a bit of a stealth buff in the update as far as I can tell. Its duration seems much larger than it was before. With my standard build it now lasts 38 seconds. Great right? Wrong.

Sonar can only now be recast once it goes down. With a 30 second base duration that means that for roughly half the duration of the ability it is wasted. Everything is dead, and the enemies now attacking you cannot receive that delicious debuff. Fleeting Expertise can fix this problem somewhat, but then you are left having to spam it more, and the reduced duration really starts to hurt once you start going deep

 

You admitted yourself that you can make it shorter with Fleeting Expertise. So, you can modify it as you see fit. But you have to "spam it more"? And you'd be using it less if it had a shorter base duration? Make up your mind, do you want it longer or shorter? Because you say both.

 

Finally there is Silence, and I'll admit, I was pleasantly surprised at the new effects, however in my testing I found that it clashes rather heavily with the mods you need to build to get the most out of her other three powers, which are still better. Stretch is a vital mod on Banshee for her 1, 2 and 4, they all love that extra range, however running that extra range with Silence means that the delicious stun it gives is more often than not over by the time you can get into line of sight, wasting the opportunity it would otherwise give. Furthermore, Silence really loves its duration now, and as seen earlier running duration on Sonar completely gimps it.

 

This is a silly criticism because it has nothing to do with the changes that were made to silence. The way mods "clash" with her other moves is exactly as it used to be. You admitted yourself that the actual changes made to this move are all good.

 

Sound Quake was also "fixed". It now has a 25 energy initial casting cost, which is reduced by power efficiency, with a constant drain on energy whilst active, this however cannot be modified at all from my testing. Hitting 4 will burn your energy.

However my real problem here is that the first tick of Quake now seems to occur slightly later than it used to, meaning that no matter what you do, tick for tick, you will always use more energy than you would have previously. The extra delay also means that enemies have that much extra time to shoot at you before the stagger takes place, making your life that much harder.

All these negative changes on a power that deals 200 base DPS, and was considered one of the weakest anyway.

 

I'll admit I haven't personally tried this yet, but when I used Banshee sound quake was ludicrously long. Having the freedom to use it at varying durations lets you adapt to more situations. This sounds great to me in theory, even if the exact energy to dps ratio isn't as nice as it used to be. If the delay for the first tick of damage is as long as you say though ("much extra time"), that would be annoying.

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You admitted yourself that you can make it shorter with Fleeting Expertise. So, you can modify it as you see fit. But you have to "spam it more"? And you'd be using it less if it had a shorter base duration? Make up your mind, do you want it longer or shorter? Because you say both.

 

-snip-

The reason you would spam Sonar is because it only affects targets present when it's used, so if more targets enter the room after the power has been activated, you have to recast it to get the damage boost/minimap location.

 

I haven't had a chance to log in since the changes, but if I can stop SQ at will that is great!  Far too many times I've hit 4 on accident (or my cat walked across the keyboard) and I wind up grabbing the ground, wasting energy on an empty or semi empty room.  

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Whatever DE does to the warframes, I'll find a way to adapt until theres absolutely no way to enjoy them anymore. Then I'll come to the boards and tell them how much they've ruined everything by listening to whiny players lol

 

That is not the point though. Do not forget that we are Beta testers, we are here to help the game improve and survive the competition. You have to voice your opinion when there is still time, and not after the game has been ruined by those "whiny players". 

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That last part was more of a fun poke at the OP more than anything, but of course you're right, it's beta and feedback is important. I leave feedback on Banshee here and there, I dont think anyone reads it because it isnt heavily opinionated and therefore not as interesting to read as hyperbole i guess, but it's out there.

 

I'll adapt to any changes DE makes to Banshee, assuming they're reasonable and dont completely ruin the frame. I have a vision for how Banshee "should" work, but I'm fine if I have to alter or abandon a playstyle because someone else's idea gets implemented.

 

Right now Banshee is alright, she's not crippled at least lol. That's not a ringing endorsement obviously, im always a little disappointed when a sound-based character doesn't particularly stand out.

Edited by DarkTails
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I'm most concerned with not being able to recast Sonar. Considering that new enemies will arrive halfway through its duration, this is a potential loss of dps not just for you but for your entire team. Losing the ability to 'repaint' targets is also a downer since sometimes you really don't want to have to aim for that Heavy Gunner's tiny tiny foot, and it needs to die now.

 

I'm fine with the new Silence, but I can see it being a problem with a max range build of Overextended + Stretch, because you will be stunning enemies before you even open the door. A little counter-intuitive for stealth. It does have its uses as big crowd disable, of course.

 

Agreed on Sound Quake. There's no point in running it now unless you want to try cheesing with Trinity and energy restores.

 

Also Banshee's harp shoulderpad is smaller now because it is part of an equippable region :/ This upsets me.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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Better idea: keep the static cost and let us cancel the ability. Hydroid could do that before the patch (I don't know why DE mentioned being able to cancel Undertow, since he's had that ever since he was added to the game), so it's not something that requires more coding.

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Okay, I stand corrected. I just tested Sonar in a mission and I'm able to recast it any time I want. It also 'repaints' targets like it always has. So I don't understand the complaint here. Perhaps the OP is confusing it with Silence?

 

I did, however, run into an annoying Silence bug. My Banshee was still glowing after it ended, and I couldn't recast it. All sounds were muffled as well. Rather irritating. It's great for Invasions, though.

 

On another note, does anyone feel like the Sonic Boom ragdoll physics have been improved?

 

EDIT: Alright, wtf game... I just did another mission and this time I was not able to recast Sonar, like earlier today. BUT: this time, I was host. In the mission described above where I could recast it, I was not the host. So I think this might be yet another in a slew of host-client bugs.

 

Also I got the Silence bug again except that I could recast it. I really wish they'd test this crap before releasing it. I really do.

 

ADDENDUM THE SECOND: Sonar not being recastable is almost certainly a client-host issue. I joined another game and was able to spam as many Sonars in a row as I wanted.

 

4Z1j4Y1.jpg

 

Banshee wants you to speak up.

 

My HUD says "Power in use," but that is what you get for all abilities when you press the cast button while the animation is playing. That nice stack of "50 Power"s is proof that you can cast it at any time when you are a client. It also does not have a duration timer when playing as a client. This lends further credibility to our theory of it being a client-host issue.

 

The meaning behind this? It will likely be fixed soon. Soon.

 

Soon.

 

Or Sonar not being recastable is working as intended. Which would suck.

 

Also the Silence bug is caused by casting it while in the Grineer low-tek launch pod during an Invasion.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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I had the problem with sonar once today, but on my next mission I was able to spam it again.

I think (hope) it's a bug. 

 

 

And they need to improve the energy efficiency on SQ, it's awful now. Or make it way stronger with the same energy efficiency, i dunno.

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Something else that I don't like about the new Silence: corpses become highlighted as soon as you get in their range. This has led to me shooting a lot of dead bodies that already had enough knives and arrows lodged inside them to assure me that yes, this guy is indeed no longer among the living. Not sure if this is another client-host issue since the other Banshee I found tonight didn't cast Silence.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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I really hope it's a bug with Sonar. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

snip

 

When you can recast as many times as you want, are you actually hitting targets with your Sonar? When it's not hitting targets, it can be spammed, just like Rhino Stomp.

 

EDIT: Nope, I stand corrected. I'm doing a Private solo where I'm hosting and I can't spam it even when it hasn't hit a target, yet earlier I could spam it at extraction when I wasn't host.

 

So you must be right.

Edited by Casardis
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Let me put it into perspective. I cast Sonar at the start of a wave in T3 defense. The first bunch of enemies go down in ~10 seconds. The next bunch are still alive nearly 30 seconds later by the time I can cast Sonar again.

 

One enemy left alive and hiding? If I want to use Sonar to find it I can't recast it until enemies are right on top of the pod.

 

Sonar's power is already locked behind player aim/skill....recast is such an unnecessary restriction on the ability.

 

Pls fix DE.

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