DSpite Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) So then we agree that the new mobs will be a player frustration unless something fundamental changes about telegraphing. Yes I agree. I don't have any issues with super powerful enemies in high end level missions or Nightmare Modes, but there has to be allowance to players to have a reactive way to deal with them. A fully aware party that is also talking on voice chat to coordinate should be able to deal with (almost) any level of threat, up to the point where one player makes an error, and they get a wipe. For my 2c worth, if DE simply went datamining and said "well, on this Defence Mission here, everyone sits on these pillars and Penta's the Pod below for 45 minutes straight", then they should tweak that level to allow mobs to climb up there, or have mobs that can knock you off and on your @$$ by aiming at you up there, or make some enemies that have a reflective shield that can reflect nades/missiles right back magnetically, but say, can be punched straight through by energy weapons such as a Flux Rifle, so as to mix up the gameplay. Small tweaks to mobs here and there every so often to make them adapt to the most spammed method of attack would go a long way to keep players on their toes, make people use a larger spread of guns - maybe even coordinate on some maps as what to bring - and keep the fights interesting. Edited June 19, 2014 by DSpite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocent_Flower Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 SOLD! Put him as a Boss somewhere! Earth maybe? Better yet: make him a common grineer heavy enemy. Like the bombadier but melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Small tweaks to mobs here and there every so often to make them adapt to the most spammed method of attack would go a long way to keep players on their toes, make people use a larger spread of guns - maybe even coordinate on some maps as what to bring - and keep the fights interesting. Yep. Since we already have some clear winners (high RoF weapons, high dmg AoE weapons) a simple start would be building enemies with fair but potent defenses against those two types of damage. EX: an enemy whose armor instantly hardens in the body part they are shot in, so repeated hits to the same an area cause far less damage. EX: an enemy with an elastic exoskeleton that takes a mere fraction of AoE damage unless it's hit dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nkomo-Sama Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Better yet: make him a common grineer heavy enemy. Like the bombadier but melee. ^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltik0ne Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Yep. Since we already have some clear winners (high RoF weapons, high dmg AoE weapons) a simple start would be building enemies with fair but potent defenses against those two types of damage. EX: an enemy whose armor instantly hardens in the body part they are shot in, so repeated hits to the same an area cause far less damage. EX: an enemy with an elastic exoskeleton that takes a mere fraction of AoE damage unless it's hit dead on. How about: Make an enemy totally immune to a damage type at random ? No ? I find the way DE took that from this thread to be rather strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I'd like to point out that there are many mechanics in this game that still work weird anyway. For example, I can't seem to be able to destroy either Arc Traps or reactor rods during a sabotage with a Penta, and yet I can kill one of those Frost bubble dudes by detonating a Penta outside the shield, or we can kill enemies on the other side of blast doors with a blast weapon, or a Stomp. Pretty sure the rest of you here could point out a whole stack of other things that should be on the "needs looking at right now" list but are not. I mean, it's not that big a deal really, but if obvious things that make players go "WTF?" go untouched, I'm not expecting large changes to the AI to suddenly materialize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashiroSora Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Yep. Since we already have some clear winners (high RoF weapons, high dmg AoE weapons) a simple start would be building enemies with fair but potent defenses against those two types of damage. EX: an enemy whose armor instantly hardens in the body part they are shot in, so repeated hits to the same an area cause far less damage. EX: an enemy with an elastic exoskeleton that takes a mere fraction of AoE damage unless it's hit dead on. Hmm these sound interesting, do you mind if i use this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 EX: an enemy whose armor instantly hardens in the body part they are shot in, so repeated hits to the same an area cause far less damage. And we'll name him Armstrong. Nanomachines, son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashiroSora Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 And we'll name him Armstrong. Nanomachines, son. Was thinking of using it for my Gamma model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennandri Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 You know, I was really excited to play Warframe when I first started downloading it. I checked youtube for possible trailers it might have, and sure enough there were a few to watch. One thing that caught my attention and made me feel like Warframe was going to me more genuine was the Open Beta Trailer. The moment Lech Kril showed up, my first feeling was that this wasn't just a boss; I thought it was going to be just a regular, heavy type enemy that would've required skill and tactics, and in teams: coordination, to defeat. Jump kicks to stagger, quick dodges to avoid the swings of his hammer, and the use of powers to finally bring him down. The way it ended up being was disappointing: He was just a simple boss on a far off celestial body, and not even a very hard one at that. Right now, it takes little to no effort to kill, and not to say our enemies need more AI, they just need some form of additional abilities and survivability. Heck, the Lech Kril I thought was just an enemy wasn't necessarily smart, but the trailer expressed it took all four members of the team to coordinate and take him down. And all he did was swing his hammer. You captured my sentiments exactly. Tenno are portrayed not just as warriors with extraordinary power, but the skill, tactics, teamwork and discipline to know when and where to use their powers. The trailer highlighted that key difference...which is nearly absent from the game. I do honestly feel like a handful of tweaks can help start bringing that feeling to Warframe itself, not just its promotional materials. That open beta trailer was what got me absolutely stoked for playing Warframe. Now I've got nearly 1000 hours logged, and I have so many thoughts about the game, how it's wonderful, how it needs improvement, but I always have trouble putting my thoughts into words. I feel as though the game has gotten so far away from the expectations I had when I first watched that trailer. After so many updates and so much new content added, I feel as though the game's complexity has started to betray it. We have so many guns, weapons, warframes, powers, and mods that the elegant simplicity I imagined the game would embody is gone now. I know it's still technically in beta, but I'm afraid that the devs will feel they've invested too much time and energy into crafting what we have now that they would never consider reverting the game back to something more simple. Right now, we have weapons that are too strong, that make the game too fast and that can only be countered by bullet sponge enemies and infinitely scaling power levels. If you ever joined a lobby with three other people, you would never get combat as slow and as deliberate as what DE showed us in that trailer. Maybe I'm just hoping for too much, but I think the entire game would benefit greatly from grounding itself a bit more, rather than simply going for more and bigger and faster. As for the enemies, They could definitely do with some more variety. I think Steelfeathers' idea of a Jat Kittag wielding grineer would be amazing. I would love to see actually tough melee enemies that could handle themselves in a fight. The Prosecutors are okay, but they just don't do the job I think they were meant for. Our enemies need to be able to do something besides charge at us or pathetically try and squeeze themselves behind cover. Just as importantly though, toning down the tenno, directing them more towards an image of teamwork, synergy, and simplicity will help this game become something even greater than what it is now. I'm sorry if this isn't entirely in line with the thread's topic, but this has been on my mind for a long time. I just wanted to share and hopefully find some like-minded people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearthwin Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This is what you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjClP5h6Po Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This is what you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjClP5h6Po No, that's what we're getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearthwin Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 No, that's what we're getting. IDK it requires dodging and some better mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 IDK it requires dodging and some better mechanics. Thing is, this is what Warframe is mechanically, a cute, clever game with limited mechanics and way too much promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevenantBacon Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) *snip* Also I wonder why we have the Jat Kittag, if not a single Grineer sports it? Maybe they'll add in that will, but for now I would like to suggest these mean brutish armored Grineer that will utilize a jet-powered hammer religiously. He would look like this sexy badass Can you say "Warhammer 40K Space Marine rip off"? Because *I* certainly can. Edited June 26, 2014 by RevenantBacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WubbaDubDub Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I am Tenno and I approve this message +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain_Dew_Camacho Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 i enjoy fighting specters. they are tough. stabbed the rhino cosmic thru the top of the head with venka, died to valkyr cuz could not damage it. the big birds were just annoying. lets get more specters in regular maps! dress them up as whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenuredMoon Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I also think, one REALLY big thing the AI needs, is to actually USE cover. Not try to hide behind a rock with 95% of their body exposed. Like.... what is the point by that level of being "uncovered"? Enemies randomly running in circles are harder to hit at that point. That, plus what you said, would be good. While I do think sometimes this is true, honestly I think the reason we feel like this is because we as tenno move as though we all need to use the toilet and theres only one stall open which is at the end of the mission, meaning by the time an enemy has taken cover for where we were two seconds ago we've now flown to the other side of the room with every enemies rear in our view because their animation for taking cover is slower then us walking right past them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikeABawsh Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I support this thread 100%. The suggested changes on giving enemies abilities to absorb our ubers, as well as make us think tactically when facing different types of enemies are not only really cool and unique, but somewhat challenging enough to warrant a feeling of accomplishment after defeating them. 10/10, would support again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magusat999 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) I like the way you think - on the Exima I'd like to submit that they do not follow this (the OP) philosophy The Exima are just highly powered, they are not "Has this ability to counter unless this situation occurs..." basically the Exima is- "Oh snap I see that funny color! Let me pull back and fire my Penta before it gets in HIS range!!!" Also I'd say most Exima are not hard to deal with except the UNFAIR ONE that CHEATS YOU OUT OF YOUR ENERGY. It is a threat, but one of those way OP threats - especially if you are an energy based squishy build (you cant have it all). Lets say your fresh off of killing Vor, and between his attacks and his guards (he does summon guards sometimes) which include heavy gunners, which tend to target your Sentinel; your Sentinel, say Carrier, gets destroyed. THEN the Exima shows up and sucks all of your energy. Your say, NYX - an energy based frame who is very squishy. You become very vulnerable and its difficult to pick up orbs that you now have to run directly over with no Carrier. By then, especially at high levels (such as Survival 30+ minutes) you can be killed every 20 feet of movement, with not enough energy to counter... and then Vor shows up again. Yes I agree the enemies could be dumber... Edited July 14, 2014 by magusat999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t3hsquirr3l Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Very interesting ideas, I'm looking back over my gaming lifetime now and seeing many instances where this principle would have been very helpful. The shield lancers are a great example indeed, since the only thing they really need to do is hold up their shield and creep around, but that shield changes how you interact with them. Or should, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart-artificial Interesting article on making AI too smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart-artificial Interesting article on making AI too smart. Very interesting thanks! Looks like the dev came to some of the same conclusions as we have in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tehnoobshow Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I always thought that smart AI was supposed to play mind games with you and bring you to tears by making you contemplate all the failure in your life. Why can't we have that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I always thought that smart AI was supposed to play mind games with you and bring you to tears by making you contemplate all the failure in your life. Why can't we have that? Mixture of smart and dumb. Balance is always good for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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