New Content With A Side Of Nerf, Please

[DaWolv]

Hey Community and Devs,

 

yesterday I was talking with my Clanmates about the recently presented enemy additions and what they felt was difficult about the game still. We spitballed a bit, but what it all comes down to is this:

 

 (

)

 

Difficult enemies are difficult because they are difficult, not because they have a huge health pool and deal massive damage.

 

I tried to view the game from the perspective of two groups: New players and veterans.

The conclusion I came to will shock noone on the planet ever, but here goes:

You can be considered "new" as long as you don't have the most essential mods maxed (or almost maxed) for High level play. These include, of course, Serration, Hornet Strike, Multi-Shot-mods, Vault mods and Nightmare mods.

Most of them are very hard to acquire for players, who don't already most of them or who are not being carried by a team of high level players (either through random matchmaking or within the clan)

 

On the other end of the spectrum you have maxed out players like myself, who have no challange left in the game outside of intentionally gimping oneself or going beyond wave/minute 60 in Survival or Defense.

 

What I suggest therefor is a heavy nerf!

I think DE should consider nerfing almost all mods that directly impact the damage a weapon does, to a level, where instead of 8x you do about 3x as much damage with a weapon compared to unranked w/o mods.

Naturaly, the star chart would need to be rebalanced for this. Going by the definition of difficulty (as posted above), the difficulty on systems like Pluto should stem from the fact, that there are more diversed and tactical enemies (napalms, scorpions, disrupters, Techs, anti-moas), while on the lower level enemies are fewer and simpler (basic grunts).

A lower cap on the damage will bring the effect that high level players can still find some enjoyment out of lower tier planet systems, while low level players that are skillful and know how to play their warframe, could potentially beat a mission that would have otherwise been way too high for them.

 

Another upside of rebalancing the game and settling for a lower damage cap is PvP!

All forms of PvP in Warframe are basically just a "one-shot contest". After doing a rebalancing of the damages you can assimilate the resistances of the high end enemies on planets like Pluto to that of a maxed out Warframe (meaning a armored target should have stats akin to a maxed out Valkyr, a light assault unit akin to a maxed Nova and so forth)

That will bring PvE and PvP in line and create a viable endgame for some in the process.

(I am waiting desperately on some form of endgame, but I can't be asked to deal with the dumb PvP for now!)

 

_____________________________________________

Quick note to "Melee only"-players:

 

I think that, yes, you should be able to melee drones and other future airborne units to make the sword alone really a viable option, BUT I don't think having the option to go full melee is the same as not bringing any firearm with you just because! I for one think the melee system is fine as it is now (maybe do something about drones), but I don't condone running only a melee weapon when you cannot be sure you won't need a firearm.

____________________________________________

 

Anyway, leave comments please,

I'd love to see the feedback on this, since we are talking about nerfing things and this is the internet...

[Zareek]

I just can't agree on this "nerf" train that is steamrolling through Warframe atm. They said at the last livestream that they want us to feel powerful, they want us to kill a lot of enemies. Of course the higher level the enemies are, the more difficult it's going to be to kill them, before they hit us a few times. if they just lowered our damage overall, the game overall would be more difficult. But why go that road? Because it's the easiest?

 

There are a lot of players who enjoy going the extra mile in defense and survivals, and that is absolutely not possible unless you deal a good amount of damage. We should be able to feel a progress when we rank up and aquire new weapons and better mod. Hell, if I felt at the same level now as rank 12 as I did at rank 2, I wouldn't be playing right now.

 

Like you said so yourself, some mods are extremely hard to aquire, and if they were to nerf those, all hell would break lose.

[DaWolv]

 

There are a lot of players who enjoy going the extra mile in defense and survivals, and that is absolutely not possible unless you deal a good amount of damage. We should be able to feel a progress when we rank up and aquire new weapons and better mod. Hell, if I felt at the same level now as rank 12 as I did at rank 2, I wouldn't be playing right now.

 

I get that "high defense" argument a lot and heres my response:

For one, if I want a challanging defense, I'd rather having from Wave 1 instead of having to wait for an hour and then starting the actual game.

Secondly, as I said above, the nerf needs to come in conjunction with a rebalancing of all enemies and that includes the way they scale in endless missions.

Currently high endless missions are only possible, because the weapon damage is balanced against enemies that only uccur after at least 20 minutes of waiting.

 

You wouldn't be playing if you felt the same as with rank 2, thats a valid argument, but I'm not just trying to get them to nerf everything, I am proposing a rebalancing. Frankly, I am wondering why I'm still playing, because I didn't have any incentive to for almost 6 months now

[Zareek]

I get that "high defense" argument a lot and heres my response:

For one, if I want a challanging defense, I'd rather having from Wave 1 instead of having to wait for an hour and then starting the actual game.

Secondly, as I said above, the nerf needs to come in conjunction with a rebalancing of all enemies and that includes the way they scale in endless missions.

Currently high endless missions are only possible, because the weapon damage is balanced against enemies that only uccur after at least 20 minutes of waiting.

 

You wouldn't be playing if you felt the same as with rank 2, thats a valid argument, but I'm not just trying to get them to nerf everything, I am proposing a rebalancing. Frankly, I am wondering why I'm still playing, because I didn't have any incentive to for almost 6 months now

During the last live stream, they showed off some of the enemies they are currently developing. And they are absolutely amazing. When those get implented into the game, the overall difficulty should go up a notch. It won't just be a matter of high damage, it will be a matter of checking your surroundings while playing. It's fine and dandy to crit for 2-3k with your boltor prime, but if you are standing in a rain of toxic goo without a toxic resistance mod, well... dead dps = no dps.

 

So basically, in my expectation, when they start releasing the new content they are developing, the game will feel much different. Newer players would still be able to feel a nice and steady progress, and old players would be able to have fun with whatever the hell DE has in storage for us. But the gameplay will also be much more interesting overall. Meaning that wave 1-5 will probably still not be that impressive for a rank 16 player, but there will be a lot more different enemies attacking, which will make the game much more fun.

 

I can't imagine they would scrap all their current projects, only to rework EVERYTHING they have been implenting into the game so far. I just find it unrealistic. No offense of course, I personally appreciate when people think outside of the box.. I just don't agree with this one. (especially after watching the last livestream).

Edited June 8, 2014 by Zareek

[trst]

The problem with this is that if both damage and enemy level are both reduced then you end up in the exact same place before the nerfs.

 

If damage is scaled back to only make wave 30 defense possible instead of 60 and enemy strength is scaled in the same way then all you end up getting is a game that you spend much less time playing to achieve the same 'level' of difficulty.

 

And if damage was scaled back but enemies aren't then players who are not prepared for higher level play will have a harder and longer time until they can get there.

 

If anything what we really need is just an A.I. overhaul. A system where things are difficult based on how well you as the player can preform.

[DaWolv]

The problem with this is that if both damage and enemy level are both reduced then you end up in the exact same place before the nerfs.

 

The reason behind the nerf is not to make the current endgame more or less difficult. The intent is to make the early game more viable for the well equipped crowd. I really like the new tilesets on all the lower planets, problem is, I never have any reason to go there.

Admittedly, that is a problem with the drops and rewards as well, but not being challanged by anything just is not going to work for me forever.

 

The enemy reworks and additions that are coming will hopefully move the game in the right direction, but they will only be really challanging on the level cap, since, for lower level guys to be able to beat them on Mars and Earth, their resistances need to be scaled back accordingly, which just means they will get one-shot by maxed out players all the same.

 

After all:

This is still Beta, isn't it?

If it doesn't work, they can still go back to the current system, but I think its at least worth a try

Edited June 8, 2014 by DaWolv

[Psychen]

A mod and weapon mod balance is long overdue, and it's not hard to see that if Banshee's Sonar is very unviable until very high Def /Surv and the same happens with the magic 'headshots' or weakspots.

Secondaries with an absurd hornet strike and double multi-shot mods (with 2 firerate increases) are unmatching pretty much everything else, also worth mentioning they have mixed mini-shotguns, explosive weps, snipers, etc all in the same bundle. With 8slots,there isn't costumization because some mods clearly shallow others.

Then we have the question of unscaling weapons. Pyrana just came out and the Brakk is still 2/3 better, meanwhile some of the older weapons are left getting dust or sold after 30 because they aren't simply up the notch (unless magically a godly hammer falls on them, looking at you Boltor P.). I think they will eventually learn how to balance things amongst all we have and the difficulty it brings (or cuts out from the game).

[TheHeraldXII]

Well I agree with having a narrower range of power between the start of the game and endgame. I personally think it should be done by making about a portion of the effects of Serration/Hornet Strike factored into the level ups for that weapon so that progression through the game is based more on playing the game and less on tediously grinding for mods.

[RustyNaps]

Imo all Warframe really needs is Spiral Knights level scaling.

 

In Spiral Knights a T4 guy with all that OP T4 gear can walk into a noob T1 mission and only be as effective as the maximum upgrades a said T1 noob could acquire in a T1 dungeon.

 

So basically. A Tenno of MR16 with a Nova can walk into mercury but she will have all her things nerfed to the maximuim power a Mercury noob could have at that time. 

 

Applying this to each planet on Warframe would make balancing so much easier and would help Veterans enjoy those awesome tilesets without a forma. Though this level scaling will not apply to Survival or Endless Defense because of the fact enemy level will just keep rising.

[IfritKajiTora]

Hey Community and Devs,

 

yesterday I was talking with my Clanmates about the recently presented enemy additions and what they felt was difficult about the game still. We spitballed a bit, but what it all comes down to is this:

 

 (

)

 

Difficult enemies are difficult because they are difficult, not because they have a huge health pool and deal massive damage.

 

I tried to view the game from the perspective of two groups: New players and veterans.

The conclusion I came to will shock noone on the planet ever, but here goes:

You can be considered "new" as long as you don't have the most essential mods maxed (or almost maxed) for High level play. These include, of course, Serration, Hornet Strike, Multi-Shot-mods, Vault mods and Nightmare mods.

Most of them are very hard to acquire for players, who don't already most of them or who are not being carried by a team of high level players (either through random matchmaking or within the clan)

 

On the other end of the spectrum you have maxed out players like myself, who have no challange left in the game outside of intentionally gimping oneself or going beyond wave/minute 60 in Survival or Defense.

 

What I suggest therefor is a heavy nerf!

I think DE should consider nerfing almost all mods that directly impact the damage a weapon does, to a level, where instead of 8x you do about 3x as much damage with a weapon compared to unranked w/o mods.

Naturaly, the star chart would need to be rebalanced for this. Going by the definition of difficulty (as posted above), the difficulty on systems like Pluto should stem from the fact, that there are more diversed and tactical enemies (napalms, scorpions, disrupters, Techs, anti-moas), while on the lower level enemies are fewer and simpler (basic grunts).

A lower cap on the damage will bring the effect that high level players can still find some enjoyment out of lower tier planet systems, while low level players that are skillful and know how to play their warframe, could potentially beat a mission that would have otherwise been way too high for them.

 

Another upside of rebalancing the game and settling for a lower damage cap is PvP!

All forms of PvP in Warframe are basically just a "one-shot contest". After doing a rebalancing of the damages you can assimilate the resistances of the high end enemies on planets like Pluto to that of a maxed out Warframe (meaning a armored target should have stats akin to a maxed out Valkyr, a light assault unit akin to a maxed Nova and so forth)

That will bring PvE and PvP in line and create a viable endgame for some in the process.

(I am waiting desperately on some form of endgame, but I can't be asked to deal with the dumb PvP for now!)

 

_____________________________________________

Quick note to "Melee only"-players:

 

I think that, yes, you should be able to melee drones and other future airborne units to make the sword alone really a viable option, BUT I don't think having the option to go full melee is the same as not bringing any firearm with you just because! I for one think the melee system is fine as it is now (maybe do something about drones), but I don't condone running only a melee weapon when you cannot be sure you won't need a firearm.

____________________________________________

 

Anyway, leave comments please,

I'd love to see the feedback on this, since we are talking about nerfing things and this is the internet...

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242400-warframe-more-tactical-for-old-players-high-ranked-and-pvp-playable-v20/

You diddn't readed this. You should write your comment what you think about it what is stupid and what is good.

[DaWolv]

A mod and weapon mod balance is long overdue, and it's not hard to see that if Banshee's Sonar is very unviable until very high Def /Surv and the same happens with the magic 'headshots' or weakspots.

Secondaries with an absurd hornet strike and double multi-shot mods (with 2 firerate increases) are unmatching pretty much everything else, also worth mentioning they have mixed mini-shotguns, explosive weps, snipers, etc all in the same bundle. With 8slots,there isn't costumization because some mods clearly shallow others.

 

 

The fact that Pistols are more powerful than rifles is just as baffling to me.

How come I can get to 120% Multishot with one mod alone on pistols, while rifles only allow me 90% max for an even higher capacity cost?

How come the pistols get 220% damage increase, while rifles only get 165%?

 

That is something they should adress too.

 

@RustyNaps:

I have thought about how a scaling mechanism could work in Warframe, really what you are talking about is a percentual decrease in damage and resistances. It could work, but I think if they rebalance the game properly it wont be needed. Also it would cause a lot of confusion for newer players when they mod up their Vitality, yet they don't see the promised increase in Hitpoints, because they elect to play on the wrong planets.

 

but its going in the same direction, sure!

[DaWolv]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242400-warframe-more-tactical-for-old-players-high-ranked-and-pvp-playable-v20/

You diddn't readed this. You should write your comment what you think about it what is stupid and what is good.

________________________

 

"-Enemies will get stronger in the missions depending the highest player level in that mission:

If the mission level is 5 and he have warframe or weapon at level 30:

If one of the players is having warframe at level 30 then enemies have dmg boost buff.

If one of the players is having one weapon at level 30 then enemies have Health and shield boost buff.

Exp gained from enemies will be higher.

This will hold the hardness of the game and to survive there will be need tactic, not just rush forward and killing everything with one shot."

 

I was aware of it, I just don't think this is a good mechanic.

That way newer players will have their experience ruined by someone high level joining their session and buffing up the enemies to levels at which they can't be killed anymore by the low level player.

 

As I said above, the problem stems from the high range of damage in Warframe. Bringing the 2 ends of the spectrum closer together, I feel, will achieve more and is relatively easy, without needing to create new code for automatic scaling and dynamic rebalancing.

[IfritKajiTora]

I was aware of it, I just don't think this is a good mechanic.

That way newer players will have their experience ruined by someone high level joining their session and buffing up the enemies to levels at which they can't be killed anymore by the low level player.

 

As I said above, the problem stems from the high range of damage in Warframe. Bringing the 2 ends of the spectrum closer together, I feel, will achieve more and is relatively easy, without needing to create new code for automatic scaling and dynamic rebalancing.

LOL but I writed there, when enemies get buffs the low leveled players get too buffs. depending on how much they miss level, EXP is rised but in that same time the low leveled players that got buffs have reduction of gaining exp so actually they will get this same amount of exp like the enemies are on their level.

[SableSonata]

The biggest issue is the power gap between a weak frame and a strong frame, and how mods can turn something that's pathetic on its own into something akin to a god. 

 

Mods can bring your weapon's damage up 20+ times its base, if not more, and that's before taking crits or status effects into account. There is the start of the problem. With such a gigantic range in player power, the game is impossible to balance, because if they make enemies balanced for new players, tey're all a joke to experienced players, and if balanced for experienced players, new players won't stand a chance.

 

Reduce the power gap between new players and veterans, and the game becomes vastly easier to balance.

 

Also, get rid of enemy armour scaling (Or keep health constant and increase armour). Enemy toughness should scale linearly, not exponentially.

[DaWolv]

LOL but I writed there, when enemies get buffs the low leveled players get too buffs. depending on how much they miss level, EXP is rised but in that same time the low leveled players that got buffs have reduction of gaining exp so actually they will get this same amount of exp like the enemies are on their level.

Whats the purpose of leveling then? At that point you might as well just make everything static. (Which I would be ok with actually, but I don't think most of the player base would agree)

And again, that is overcomplicating the issue and the devs would need to write tons of new code to make this work. Also don't forget Murphy's Law!

The more things you introduce to regulate the content, the more things you add that could possibly fail

[SignOfTheTaurus]

Whats the purpose of leveling then? At that point you might as well just make everything static. (Which I would be ok with actually, but I don't think most of the player base would agree)

Because if you want to go to the higher missions lvl you need to level up. If you don't have enough level then you will have a big problem facing higher leveled enemies.

Enemies get buffs only if they are weaker compared to you. If they are stronger than you then you dont get buffs or they dont get debuffs.

Leveling up to 60 lvl in warframe there could be actually hard missions that have lvl 60 and even more.

For now its looks weird someone is having weapon that have 15lvl and he make 150 dmg per shot, and another guy have lvl 30 and make 2000k dmg with that same weapon per shot, there is only 15lvls gap beetwen them o_O, its only because he have Catalizator in the weapon it double the point for mods. In that what I writed it have more sense of leveling up to 60 lvl, he could make 2000k dmg on LVL 60 45lvls gap so it is more logic.

Edited June 8, 2014 by SignOfTheTaurus

[DaWolv]

Because if you want to go to the higher missions lvl you need to level up. If you don't have enough level then you will have a big problem facing higher leveled enemies.

Enemies get buffs only if they are weaker compared to you. If they are stronger than you then you dont get buffs or they dont get debuffs.

Leveling up to 60 lvl in warframe there could be actually hard missions that have lvl 60 and even more.

For now its looks weird someone is having weapon that have 15lvl and he make 150 dmg per shot, and another guy have lvl 30 and make 2000k dmg with that same weapon per shot, there is only 15lvls gap beetwen them o_O, its only because he have Catalizator in the weapon it double the point for mods. In that what I writed it have more sense of leveling up to 60 lvl, he could make 2000k dmg on LVL 60 45lvls gap so it is more logic.

I see what you are trying to say, but it really has more to do with the visualization of how powerful any given item is at any given time, and not with the benefits or disadvantages of narrowing the level gaps by nerfing the mods

[SignOfTheTaurus]

I see what you are trying to say, but it really has more to do with the visualization of how powerful any given item is at any given time, and not with the benefits or disadvantages of narrowing the level gaps by nerfing the mods

English isn't my first language, This is too much complicated for me to understand xD

[arisaka]

I really feel like modules should never have been the main way to make weapons and frames better, and weapon levels should be much more important. As it stands there's very little mods do besides make everything magnitudes better than their base stats and leaving balance and enemies behind in the dust.

[DaWolv]

I really feel like modules should never have been the main way to make weapons and frames better, and weapon levels should be much more important. As it stands there's very little mods do besides make everything magnitudes better than their base stats and leaving balance and enemies behind in the dust.

 

Exactly.

After each forma the frame gets massively more powerful.

The Dark Sectors don't help in that respect, because especially once you are at Forma No. 3 you can level up most Frames within 1-2 runs on Sechura. The only Frames that are painful to level are those that don't have damage abilities (like Loki and Trinity) but even those take nearly long enough to make Forma a "restarter" tool. You don't go to Mercury when you Forma, you go to Pluto...

I'd be ok with the current system if there was a way to switch to Hard Mode, where all nodes, regardless of the planet, would be like Level 45... Nightmare alone is not doing it for me right now

[wikkedgreen]

I really don't care what they do with loki as long as they get rid of the switch. just got annoyed through a whole defense mission with a loki who would not leave me alone. please fix, this is obviously either a bug or a horrible idea.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Sorry OP...but NO...if this is the way you are going then it is the easiest path to take (least path of resistance). Stop looking for the easy resolution to a problem.

[DaWolv]

Sorry OP...but NO...if this is the way you are going then it is the easiest path to take (least path of resistance). Stop looking for the easy resolution to a problem.

 

What do you propose then? Critizising my idea is one thing, but what would be the better way to solve the problem?

What do you think is problematic about what precisely?

 

I for one can't stand the boredom right now, and the main reason I'm bored is because theres no challange in the game. I don't care about loot that much. I don't care how many waves of defense I can do when 35 of them don't even require me to do more than move my trigger-finger ever 2 seconds.

 

The solution I proposed will get rid of that and not only that, but once it has all been rebalanced and DE stops putting in more powerful and ridiculous mods into the game, IT WILL STAY CHALLANGING AND BALANCED.

Designing new and harder content for instance still isn't making Jupiter and Earth any more attractive.

[ArsVampyre]

No.

 

There's been enough Nerfframe.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

What do you propose then? Critizising my idea is one thing, but what would be the better way to solve the problem?

What do you think is problematic about what precisely?

 

I for one can't stand the boredom right now, and the main reason I'm bored is because theres no challange in the game. I don't care about loot that much. I don't care how many waves of defense I can do when 35 of them don't even require me to do more than move my trigger-finger ever 2 seconds.

 

The solution I proposed will get rid of that and not only that, but once it has all been rebalanced and DE stops putting in more powerful and ridiculous mods into the game, IT WILL STAY CHALLANGING AND BALANCED.

Designing new and harder content for instance still isn't making Jupiter and Earth any more attractive.

I am stating the truth of what your idea is. It is the easy way out. You say the game is too easy, but out of the majority of "online" games you play in how many are rushing to extract when grineer/corpus enemies are lvl 25 and up bleeding other player's characters out pretty badly? Unless your always rolling with your buds with top gear or something. Or soloing missions by yourself in which case enemies spawns match. 

 

So, tell me actually how many of the actual player base is actually on the forums vets vs newplayer/mid-level? 

 

I see lots of players rushing for extract to get away from enemies more than fighting them, unless they are in their direct path, or within reasonable distance. Instead they rush towards extract bleeding out all the way in literally some to most cases. 

 

If 60-70% of players are running away from lvl 25 enemies or dying in the process...what makes you think the games not difficult? If I have over lots of hours in a game and have good stuff doesn't mean the game doesn't present a challenge. I still see people dying in levels that are presumably "easy"

 

I think the forums are one sided in this matter as the other player base isn't being considered.

 

Infested faction needs a buff add content instead of taking it away...maybe you will be thinking twice about doing so when your massed by tough enemies that doesn't take much to bleed/kill you lvl25-40 do that pretty well with grineer/corpus. If you don't have a way to recoup health in certian missions you best finish it quick. In some cases doesn't matter how much health you recoup the damage done with status procs negates it. Sounds like a one sided approach to the matter.

Edited June 9, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle