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Things That Needs To Be Balanced On Pvp - Updated U14


.Talia.
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Introduction

 

Hello everyone, i consider myself a PvP specialist in Warframe, that's the fun in the game for me, and basically all i play in Warframe. I have been playing PvP in Warframe since the Conclaves release, and have been in more than 20.000 Conclave matches, you can confirm this in my in-game profile. I've experienced all these things countless times, so i know what i am talking about. What players are experiencing now on the Dark Sectors PvP, i've experienced since the beginning of the Conclaves.

 

PvP Balance on Warframe, is it possible?

 

Yes, PvP Balance is possible, but not without changing some of the things that are balanced for PvE. For those who not know, its possible to change things in PvP without affecting PvE. Many changes are already in place, abilities, mods and damage types, were already changed in PvP without affecting PvE.

 
Recently the mod Reflection was nerfed in PvP. A step in the right direction. But with the upcoming Dark Sectors PvP, some other mods and weapons have to be reviewed. 

 

Or else these forums will be flooded with a tsunami of "nerf plz" topics.

 

The Conclaves are completely optional, and have no rewards or leaderboards. If you don't like playing against a cheap player, you can simply quit. But the Dark Sectors PvP however, there will be rewards, the PvP will have a direct influence on the Solar Rail conflict. Right now most of the regular Conclave players follow some kind of code of honor, because they choose to play fair. But once the Dark Sectors PvP comes out, people will try to win no matter what, they will use all dirty tricks available.

 

Instead of pointing fingers and complaining, i decided to make a list of suggestions on how to balance the things that are currently over powered, broken, or not balanced for PvP.

 

--- --- ---

 

Quick Thinking

 

This mod alone is not a big deal, since energy is scarce in the PvP, but when used in combo with the mod Rage, this becomes the most infamous build around the Conclaves. This mod is game breaking to the point where good Conclave players refuse to use it, it is considered the cheapest possible mod, used by tryhards. This mod completely change the outcome of a PvP battle. 

 

250px-QuickThinkingModNew.png

 

It drains your remaining energy and converts it to health with a 240% efficiency.  It keeps you with 2 Health, and use your remaining energy as a second health bar to keep you alive from incoming damage. Testings revealed that the Armor value affects the damage to energy, making this even more effective on Warframes with high Armor ratings such as Valkyr. Currently the only way to counter it is by using Magnetic damage in a weapon with high status chance, and prey that a magnetic proc breaks the Rage+QT cycle. 

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT:

 

- Reduce the energy-to-health conversion to 100% at maximum level.

- Remove the influence of Armor to the Energy pool.

- Increase the time of the Stagger animation that a QT user is forced.

 

--- --- ---

 

Reflex Guard

 

This mod is just as overpowered as Quick Thinking. Its a chance of automatic blocking all incoming attacks in a 55% chance at max level. Curious enough, this mod have a conclave rating of only 3 points. 

 

ReflexGuardMod.png

 

Reflex Guard is triggered even while shooting, so you auto-block shots in the middle of a gun fight without stopping. That's the first big issue with this mod. Once triggered, you shouldn't be able to shoot right? Seems logical. On the wikia it says that this mod will not trigger when you're shooting, reloading, charging a weapon, holding a charged weapon, or busy from any other animation. But this statement is false, and all regular Conclave players know that if you are already shooting, and the Reflex Guard procs, you will continue to shoot. If a DE reading this needs proof, i can upload a video to youtube showing this.
 
And the ridiculously high chance to block was not meant for PvP, as many other things in this game, this mod was thought for PvE. And probably the biggest issue with Reflex Guard, is that it will proc even if you are out of Stamina, and if you are already blocking the person still shooting, you will continue to block even after your Stamina runs out. Just enter a Conclave and test it for yourself, on my testings, when Reflex Guard proc'd while being shot by a Supra, i was able to block the whole magazine even without any Stamina left.

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT:

 

- Reduce the chance of auto-block to 33% at maximum level.

- Make it impossible to do any animation other than blocking once the Reflex Guard procs.

- Make blocking work ONLY while you still have Stamina available.

- Increase the Conclave Rating of this mod to 100

 

--- --- ---

 

AoE Explosive Weapons

 

Penta, Castanas, Ogris... all AoE explosive weapons should have their AoE range (So called "Blast Radius") reduced by a couple meters. 

 

250px-DEPenta.png250px-TaserStar.png

 

 

A Penta with Firestorm have a AoE radius of ridiculous 6.2m. I don't even know what to say, its simply not a weapon balanced for PvP, its a weapon made for PvE like other have pointed out.
 
That's the biggest issue with them, and that's why good PvPers consider AoE weapons to be cheap and "skilless", because you can kill a guy that's not even near where you aim. Doesn't matter if he is a floor below, behind walls, or in the middle of a copter fleeing. And there is no blocking it. Did i mention it is insta-kill?
 
Have to be balanced for PvP before the Dark Sectors PvP comes out. If they don't want to touch the damage of this weapon class, then at least the AoE Blast Radius must be nerfed down by a couple of meters.

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT

 

- Reduce the Blast Radius (AoE Range) of all AoE Explosive Weapons by 2.0m

- Make it possible for solid map objects to stop the AoE Damage, for example when hiding behind a wall.

 

--- --- ---

 

Hysteria

 

Being 100% immune to all forms of damage. Godmode. I don't even have to explain why this ability is over powered. There is no way to counter it, you can only wait until its over to try to kill the Valkyr, before she cast it again. 

 

 

140px-Hysteria.png

 

This ability brings many issues in the PvP. Some players use Duration mods and simply camp on the Energy Orb, casting Hysteria repeatedly. Others use it to revive fallen allies and you can't do nothing about it. On Dark Sectors PvP you can safely activate all objectives while being 100% immune to all incoming damage and no one can stop you. 

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT

 

- I won't give any suggestions on how to balance this one out. I'm sure it's already on DE's plans, since Hysteria changes were announced.

 

Ok Hysteria Animation Changes are already in place, but they didn't balance it so i'm giving my suggestions now.

Ok so Hysteria was finally touched, The Duration was reduced to 5 seconds, a band-aid solution that didn't solve the problem. 5 Seconds is enough to revive fallen allies and activate objectives.

 

- Instead of invulnerability, it grants 90% Damage Reduction (Aside from Valkyr's Armor value) not affected by Power Strength.
- Keep everything else like it is now. (Immunity to Crowd Control and Knockdown, Life Steal, etc)
 

--- --- ---

 

Bladestorm

 

This is your good old "press-4-to-win"

 

140px-BladeStormMod.png

 

Deals 2000 finisher damage (Bypass Armor) to all players within Range, with a forced Bleed Proc.

There is simply no way out of it. Completely unbalanced for PvP. 

On Dark Sectors PvP you can even target objectives like Generators and the Power Core. (Fixed)

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT

 

- Make it deal a fixed % of damage to the target's health, instead of a fixed value of 2000. Balance it so that even with the bleed proc, the target will still be left alive.

- Make it hit each target only once. Right now, Blade Storm continues to hit all target in range until everyone is dead.

- Ash must NOT be invincible while Blade Storming. At least DoT procs should still apply. (Right now if you have a Bleed or Toxin proc, and go Blade Storm, the ticks will pass and you will be left alive after the Blade Storm)

 

Blade Storm was "nerfed" but still broken over powered.

 

--- --- ---

 

Invisibility and Smoke Screen with FULL BLACK energy

 

These two abilities were not supposed to make the user completely 100% invisible. You were supposed to see that "predator-like" effect. Except that if the user is wearing a full black energy color, he will be COMPLETELY INVISIBLE.

 

 

140px-InvisibilityMod.png 140px-SmokeScreenMod.png

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT

 

- Make it so that even with full black energy, the user is still barely visible. (Like the way its supposed to be)

 

--- --- ---

 

Shuriken, but applies to other spammable first abilities.

 

500 Slash damage per Shuriken with a 100% status chance. Two shurikens will be thrown when the mod is level 2 or higher. It takes no more than one of two of these to kill even a fully modded Warframe. It's a spammable cheap skill that cost only 25 energy with default efficiency. Did i mention its a homing missile? Shuriken will seek nearby targets. (Even if you don't see them, if they are hiding or invisible) Even if you survive the initial damage, the Bleed DoT inflicts 35% of the initial damage per tick for a total of 7 ticks over 6 seconds. 

 

140px-ShurikenMod.png

 

HOW TO BALANCE IT

 

- Maybe the damage is just too high for a first ability. Again i suggest to use a % of Health Damage, instead of a fixed value. But i know the developers are not very fond of this idea of using a percentage for the damage of abilities. Check some other suggestions:

- The Bleed DoT its a death sentence, 35% is too much, when people survive the initial damage, they are already dead its just a matter of time. My suggestion is to reduce the DoT to 10% and give targets a chance to survive.

- Shurikens needs to have their casting delay increased. Currently the Delay of about half a second between uses. You can spam your whole energy pool in about a couple seconds. I suggest increasing the delay between Shurikens.

 

--- --- ---

 

This topic will be updated.

Edited by RexSol
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blessing

 

shuriken

 

and a balance for the valkyr's armor; 1200 armor= 80% of the damages deflected, it's really unfair

 

edit: only > 10 000 matches for me

Edited by koolen
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I really do appreciate the time you took to make this thread and inform DE from a pvp player perspective. I hope they take this seriously and make pvp even more fun. 

 

Agree with all of your ideas and +1

 

If you couldn't tell I dig pvp.

Edited by thecolin-
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Here's hoping for more balance before the new Solar Rail conflicts come out as well.  I've PvP'd like twice in my entire 2000 hours of Warframe, but the game mode seems interesting.

 

I sincerely hope they don't create a "Valkyr and Ash with Quick Thinking and Rage" meta that will just narrow down opportunities to be creative in the new game mode.  That would suck.  I want to use my Volt in PvP scenarios, too!

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Because it needs saying:

How DARE your PvP balance changes affect my precious PvE?!

 

More seriously: They're completely different situations.

I don't see how, as things stand, Bladestorm (for example) can be simultaneously viable for both modes.

 

 

Having said that, +1 to OP.

Excellent post is excellent; Not-wrong Tenno is not wrong.

Edited by Chroia
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how about in lieu of "balancing" the system, DE just implements a PvP system that has restrictions on what can be used, or some other measures for balance. That way the they are not messing with the PvE portion of the game to handle the PvP.

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In all seriousness Rexsol, I know you love your warframe pvp and I respect that the conclave community has its on self policing rules and honor system, but that isn't going to work once this really (hopefully) takes off. Most people want to win period. They don't really care if they cheap shot you or not. So just prepare to be some what disappointed with the expanded pvp community.

That being said I seriously do support all balance discussions, so I hope I am wrong.

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 You guys realize that the Dark Sectors PvP is coming, whether you like it or not.

 
Since the PvP is on its way, we might as well do it right. Don't you agree?
 
There is no point in whining about how this is not a PvP game now.

 

In all seriousness Rexsol, I know you love your warframe pvp and I respect that the conclave community has its on self policing rules and honor system, but that isn't going to work once this really (hopefully) takes off. Most people want to win period. They don't really care if they cheap shot you or not. So just prepare to be some what disappointed with the expanded pvp community.

That being said I seriously do support all balance discussions, so I hope I am wrong.

 

You are 100% right. Once the Dark Sectors PvP comes out, people will use every dirty trick available to win. Including myself.

 

That's why these things needs to be balanced before the Dark Sectors PvP comes out.

Edited by RexSol
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You are 100% right. Once the Dark Sectors PvP comes out, people will use every dirty trick available to win. Including myself.

 

That's why these things needs to be balanced before the Dark Sectors PvP comes out.

 

Keeping the balance, play dirty to those playing dirty. Anyway, I agree with your balancing ideas, they all should be addressed and altered to fit what they are. Quick Thinking is probably the one that I find to be the most annoying when it comes to taking someone down; even though there is a simple solution to kill them while they use it, it's still a bit annoying.

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People may not like this observation, but honestly Toxin is too strong and too versatile of a primary elemental type against other Tenno.

 

50% bonus damage to health while bypassing shields, and the highest damaging status proc with the exception of maybe viral. All the while having no damage reduction to any other armor/health types.

 

Even with Anti-toxin it completely shuts down any sort of shield tanking, and people with the cicero mod set have a distinct advantage over those without..

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i dont know how hard would be to code separated stats for pvp. Your suggestions sound very logic from a pvp point of view, but by no means should affect pve. the game must be separated in these two aspects.
dark sectors pvp is bringing a weird system, where your load out "grows" as you kill. meaning that your mods become active as you porgress. this doesnt sound balanced enough, yet, it proves DE's concern about pvp balance.

if it was for me, i would set all weapons, abilities, damage and cc, all the gear, to be extrictly balanced to a x meters aoe and x damage (no procs, no by pass mitigations) for pvp. purely and exculisively skill based.

 

i.e: all weapons deal 200 damage per second, top. all frames have 500/500 shield/hp. no elemental damage, no procs. abilties deal 100, 200, 350, and 500 damage top, going from number 1 ab, to number 4 ab. auras dont work (like conclave). C.C and AoE abilties radius is 5 mts top, durations are restricted to 3 seconds and have a cooldown time of 4 seconds (energy efficiency mods dont work, abilities cost their nomral value). Block stamina withstands 500 damage top BUT is effective against all abilties. Eenergy orbs are very rare.

 

all damage numbers and durations are just to give an idea, and to make a point. it was just a quick example and i know it is not perfect, and it actually sounds... booring?

pvp in a pve game is a balance nightmare.

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i dont know how hard would be to code separated stats for pvp. Your suggestions sound very logic from a pvp point of view, but by no means should affect pve. the game must be separated in these two aspects.

dark sectors pvp is bringing a weird system, where your load out "grows" as you kill. meaning that your mods become active as you porgress. this doesnt sound balanced enough, yet, it proves DE's concern about pvp balance.

if it was for me, i would set all weapons, abilities, damage and cc, all the gear, to be extrictly balanced to a x meters aoe and x damage (no procs, no by pass mitigations) for pvp. purely and exculisively skill based.

 

i.e: all weapons deal 200 damage per second, top. all frames have 500/500 shield/hp. no elemental damage, no procs. abilties deal 100, 200, 350, and 500 damage top, going from number 1 ab, to number 4 ab. auras dont work (like conclave). C.C and AoE abilties radius is 5 mts top, durations are restricted to 3 seconds and have a cooldown time of 4 seconds (energy efficiency mods dont work, abilities cost their nomral value). Block stamina withstands 500 damage top BUT is effective against all abilties. Eenergy orbs are very rare.

 

all damage numbers and durations are just to give an idea, and to make a point. it was just a quick example and i know it is not perfect, and it actually sounds... booring?

pvp in a pve game is a balance nightmare.

PvP and PvE are already coded to have separated stats... It says so in the wiki.... and in the original post... And it's been said repeatedly in almost every single pvp thread ever.

 

Heck, it even says so in the 13.5.0 patch notes.

Edited by RancidTurnip1603
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Offtopic: @RexSol how do you find pvp players? I dont seem to find any when I want to play.

 

Do you think parry needs a nerf on the pvp side? I saw it a couple times without knowing what it was and alot of the damage gets reflected

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Offtopic: @RexSol how do you find pvp players? I dont seem to find any when I want to play.

Do you think parry needs a nerf on the pvp side? I saw it a couple times without knowing what it was and alot of the damage gets reflected

I play mostly on Europa Conclave (Rating 1000 max) or Pluto (Rating 1500 max) on N.A. East and N.A. West servers most of the time. I am from Brazil, so i also play on South America Region.

 

And if i can't find games in any of these servers, i switch to Europe Region. Unfortunately, that's my last option, because everyone in Europe region abuses of all these broken things i mentioned in this topic.

Edited by RexSol
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PvP and PvE are already coded to have separated stats... It says so in the wiki.... and in the original post... And it's been said repeatedly in almost every single pvp thread ever.

 

yes, sorry. let me refrase.

 

to rebalance the whole pvp area is what i meant. i should have said "re-code" or "re-write". i dont know how difficult could it be since i know close  to nothing about coding.

and i was trying (and fail) to make it clear for those who think it will affect pve, that pvp rebalance will not (and must not) affect pve.

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You are 100% right. Once the Dark Sectors PvP comes out, people will use every dirty trick available to win. Including myself.

 

That's why these things needs to be balanced before the Dark Sectors PvP comes out.

Isn't this a combination of the normal PvE and Pvp? If there are PvE enemies it will be much more difficult to balance, or at least you will get more of an outcry against nerfs that work for a Pvp style (I.e. conclave)
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You guys realize that the Dark Sectors PvP is coming, whether you like it or not.

 

Since the PvP is on its way, we might as well do it right. Don't you agree?

 

There is no point in whining about how this is not a PvP game now.

Sure it's coming, and will in no way effect the current methods of attacking solar rails, making it just as useful as conclaves.

 

Nope, good luck with your PvP, which still is not the focus of this game.

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Don't forget the speed that people fly around at.

 

Honestly that remains to be seen, The conclave maps for the most part are small, circularly enclosed, and cluttered with various obstructions so parkour is easily abused to be all over the map at ridiculous speeds, but in Dev stream 29 the tileset seemed much more wide open and with significantly less cover, so parkour and speed would be much more difficult to use as a method of survival.

Edited by RancidTurnip1603
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Ok, back on topic lol. Isn't this a hybrid product part PvE part PvP?

 

Indeed. I don't know how the balancing will be done in the Solar Rails / Dark Sectors PvP. 

Honestly in my opinion, if they have to do a global nerf (Both PvP and PvE sides) than so be it. Of course this will generate much hate in the forums, but it will be for the greater good.

 

Trust me, the things i mentioned in this topic, people don't care about them now, but once PvP becomes a big part of the game, a shower of nerf-plz topics will rain on these forums.

Edited by RexSol
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