De Listened...

[MXultra]

In the recent update, many players were prompted to voice negative feedback. Today, DE put through a hotfix centered around addressing the complaints that were voiced. This shows us that DE is capable of listening (provided we are loud enough) and that you shouldn't call people that voice a valid complaint "whiners" because it's that whining that gets game improvements made for everyone. That said, I'm going to repost my criticisms (which were deleted for being a tad disrespectful the first time around).

Warframe is one of my favorite games and I used to hold DE in high regard but I lost faith in them after they repeatedly ignored the community. Here are the major missteps I've felt they made in the past:

 

#1 Nekros

When Nekros' abilities were announced in advance, the community unanimously responded against Desecrate. We knew what it would do to the game and we didn't want DE to do it. They told us to "Give it a chance!", which pretty clearly meant "No, we are consciously and officially turning this game into a farming game." In my opinion, Nekros is an awful frame. Shadows are dumb, Terror is annoying, Soul Punch is weak, in fact, the one skill no one wanted is the only one anyone uses (because DE forced its value).

 

Solution: Do not make Descrate run the drop tables, just make it a reliable healing/energy regen spell. Then rework his other skills to be more useful. There is no reason one frame should be the best at resource gathering.

 

#2 Helmets

For over 6 months the community has been offering a variety of solutions to the Helmet debacle and DE completely ignored them. Basically, we wanted helmets to have a mod slot. Each helmet would come with the intended stat mod, but once owned, you could switch that mod into your prefered cosmetic helmet. I'm sure I read that suggestion at least 10 times. But then I thought "Well maybe they don't want to clutter the equipment UI with an extra accessory". But of course, in the same update where DE takes out the stat helms, they also add in all those cosmetic armor pieces that no one ever asked for.

 

Solution: Introduce helmet mods. Removing the stat helms from alerts had no effect on people that already had the arcane helms and also created several new problems.

 

#3 RNG

Probably the most heinous and far-reaching problem in the game. It's why people can love the game and hate the developer. I didn't even know what RNG was when I came to this game, but now I am intimately acquainted with what an awful effect it can have on player experience. It's not that RNG is inherently evil, it's just that DE only seems to know how to insult the players with it. You can make things hard to get without making us waste our lives farming a rare part for weeks or months. RNG makes skill a non-issue, it becomes a raffle. You never feel like you earned the rare drop, you just see it come up as a reward and you think "Oh, they're done torturing me? I don't have to play this one level any more?"

 

Solution: Make rares hard to get in terms of actual gameplay difficulty. You've introduced this idea of Rotation A, B, C so why not have Rotation A for the first 15 waves, Rotation B from there to 30, and Rotation C from then on. The trick being that rotation C contains only a few super rare drops that people actually want. This way, when you see someone walking around with that new item, it means they were skilled rather than just... patient.

 

So yeah, good luck to the Tenno, and good luck DE.

Edited June 13, 2014 by MXultra

[7grims]

 

 

It's not that RNG is inherently evil, it's just that DE only seems to know how to insult the players with it. 

 

 

You said it all right there.

[-InV-Skitz0]

There is a distinct difference from constructive criticism and just flying off the handle and ranting. If someone offers feedback laid out in a manner such as you just have, It is more likely to be listened to and your point conveyed. But you have to admit at the same time there are those who just blatantly go over board and that is when it becomes more of a self entitled whine fest.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

This. All of This.

 

[Bombazen]

Really missing rewards for skills, we need that stuff for sure. DE have to make us play harder if we want some instead of just reliant in pure luck.

[VKhaun]

#1 Nekros

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he needs a rework. Soul punch is on par with other #1 powers, #2 is awesome for missions that are actually hard and is only annoying when you're OP and don't need it, #3 needs a rework for fun factor, and #4 will fix itself as A.I. is improved.

 

The focus right now seems to be about listening to people whining about GRIND/FARMFRAME 2.0 type complaints. Nekros spamming 3 is definitely grinding, but that's a symptom of other frames like pre-nerf Frost, pre-nerf Trinity, pre-nerf Nova and Vauban just turning some mission types into completely trivial bore fests where Nekros has nothing better to do. I would put fixing him at the bottom of the list TBH.

 

No one is going to appreciate the survivalist lich with decoys and fears, until we have real difficulty somewhere. I will continue to vote 'no' on ANY change to Nekros until we have an environment suitable for judging such a frame.

 

 

 

 

 

#2 Helmets

No.

Draw the line, get rid of stats on gear forever and be done with it. The only thing universal about player opinions is that every player has a different opinion on this subject. There's no way for DE to 'listen' to that except to make a clear and direct statement about the future. NO MORE STATS. 

 

I suppose no more stats is my opinion though, isn't it? The point then would be that I think they should make a clear and direct statement to whatever their intent is. That's what would qualify as 'listening and answering' in my mind. Not going along with what I or anyone else thinks.

 

 

 

#3 RNG

I actually agree with some of your assessment. I have to argue 'for' RNG a lot of times because players make grinds for themselves and then blame DE, or DE puts in things to be found incidentally and players want to 'farm' them all day, but I'm really not a fan of the current setup. I just have different reasons for my discontent than most people so I end up playing devil's advocate.

 

I think our RNG issue can really only be fixed with structure so people are playing the game instead of grinding it, like by giving people +X% drop rate and +Y% XP if they use level-appropriate gear instead of running around Cambria with Boltor Prime trying to kill a thousand butchers to get the rarest item on the system in one day.

 

I agree with difficutly = better reward, but not the way you put it. To me difficulty would mean actual challenge, not just a gear check through higher numbers on the same enemies. Maybe give us a mod if we 100% stealth a rescue mission, kill a boss melee-only, or something like that.

 

Like most, I do think you exaggerate though. Melee 2.0 was a crystal clear example, where people called it a grind with extreme terms like GRIND WALL all over the boards when it was barely two hours old and still being hotfixed. A week later everything was up on trade cheap except TC and Gleaming Talon.

If we didn't have a few epic rare mods, people would be asking why there were no epic rare mods... Though I do think the toxic shotgun mod was a poor choice to be such a mod so, again, I disagree with you but am not content for different reasons.

 

 

 

 

(Why did your last thread about this get deleted?)

Edited June 13, 2014 by VKhaun

[Satwo]

i like the idea you kindof portrayed about RNG, and i think even more can be done to perfect it. take what youve got, and have each planet effect the percentage rates of common, uncommon, and rare drop values and have those values altered in low percentages by enemy level. places like pluto should have a higher drop rate for rares then saturn etc.

[Mirriky]

I agree with all of this, but unfortunately unless this hits 300 upvotes, gets the whole community rallied behind it and adding in more ideas.

They still wont listen.

 

The rest of my reply got too big and I turned it into a topic. (woops)

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/245475-update-priorities/

Edited June 13, 2014 by cam-o-flage20

[MXultra]

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he needs a rework.

And just because you do like him does not negate:

"There is no reason one frame should be the best at resource gathering."

 

 

Draw the line, get rid of stats on gear forever and be done with it.

You act like adding stats to gear is going to be this creeping thing. Helmets already have stats, draw the line there.

 

 

I agree with difficutly = better reward, but not the way you put it. To me difficulty would mean actual challenge, not just a gear check through higher numbers on the same enemies. Maybe give us a mod if we 100% stealth a rescue mission, kill a boss melee-only, or something like that.

I wasn't trying to revolutionize the game with that one suggestion. If you want to talk about gameplay changes or ways to increase the difficulty beyond cranking HP and DPS, that's another conversation. I'm talking about making the hunt for rare primes not such a rage inspiring quest as it is for soooooo many players. And nothing I said would conflict with gameplay improvements.

[VKhaun]

And just because you do like him does not negate:

"There is no reason one frame should be the best at resource gathering."

You're smooshing this idea together with the completely unrelated demand that they rework the whole frame. If you want to talk about if there should be a loot skill in the game at all or how it should work, then start that topic on it's own. Don't act like your opinion on the matter means all four skills need reworking by association just because you don't like or value the frame.

 

Fear + Decoys is a classic that many enjoy in difficult games, but we don't have a ton of real difficulty right now. I wouldn't touch Nekros until I feel like I need a Fear + Decoys frame for something, and if I never do then that would be sad. I really hope the game is the difficult, at least part of it, one day.

 

 

You act like adding stats to gear is going to be this creeping thing.

No I didn't?

 

 

Helmets already have stats, draw the line there.

Changing your mind three times isn't drawing a line. Almost nothing that drops or is sold has stats on it right now. Not helmets, not syandanas, not armor. The only thing left are the old skins that, AFAIK, weren't even updated for melee 2.0 and need addressing anyway. Phase them out just like helmets and don't put stats on future skins or anything else. THAT will be drawing a line because it's consistent with the last change to remove stats. It lets players know that's where we're going and addresses the uncertainty and division I talked about which had nothing to do with creep.

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to revolutionize the game with that one suggestion. If you want to talk about gameplay changes or ways to increase the difficulty beyond cranking HP and DPS, that's another conversation. I'm talking about making the hunt for rare primes not such a rage inspiring quest as it is for soooooo many players. And nothing I said would conflict with gameplay improvements.

Yes, the current situation is bad. The sky is also blue. So what? If you won't make a statement/suggestion to fix it and my statements/suggestions are for another conversation then what are we doing?

 

The only example you gave was endless defense waves going up 15/30/+. That's just HP/Damage going up and not actual challenge or gameplay differences. They're the same enemies doing the same behaviors countered the same way. Most players being lazy and sloppy about it in the first 30 waves just means we're way too strong compared to them. That's what I disagreed with in the last exchange.

Edited June 13, 2014 by VKhaun

[TwiceDead]

Really missing rewards for skills, we need that stuff for sure. DE have to make us play harder if we want some instead of just reliant in pure luck.

So much this. 

But first they need to remove crutch skills.