Enemies Reacting To Invisible Tenno? They Should React More

[[DE]Momaw]

So, a change was implemented where enemies will react to players that were invisible. They can react to noise from non-silent weapons, and they can react to being touched.

 

I tested this out...and IMO this needs to be taken even further.

 

Enemies will recognize that a non silent weapon is being used or that they are being touched, but they pretty much just run up and stand there looking very concerned.  Going invisible still completely breaks the game and requires no skill at all to trivialize combat.

 

I propose:

 

+ Enemies that feel a touch, hear gunfire, or see their buddies being killed will "guess" where the player is. A radius is extended from the player based on the kind of contact, with physical contact being a very small radius of error (you TOUCHED them) and seeing allies killed being a very large radius of error (they can guess what direction the bullets came from but not much more).

 

+ Suspicious melee enemies will make random swipes in the area, ranged enemies will shoot sporadic bursts and throw grenades.

 

+ The more notification events that are generated from a single location, the smaller the radius of error gets, and the more accurately the enemy will respond to the player.

 

The intent is to force the player to keep moving evasively and intelligently even while invisible, and to give the enemy a way to fight back in a limited capacity against invisible players.

[Pie_mastyr]

I agree, and a system such as this should be extended to non invisible gameplay as well. Giving the enemies the ability to attempt to predict movement, react to environmental changes and player interaction is something a player should experience all the time.

 

Make evasiveness a thing... because enemies should have a hard time reacting to flippy ninjas

[Tr1ples1xer]

insivisibity is AWESOME' might  as well remove it altogether if you want enemies to be aware all the time, why does everyone want to ruin all the most fun abilities ffs... boggles my mind !!

[Pie_mastyr]

insivisibity is AWESOME' might  as well remove it altogether if you want enemies to be aware all the time, why does everyone want to ruin all the most fun abilities ffs... boggles my mind !!

the intention here is to improve upon what DE has already begun. They have made this change for a reason and are unlikely to revert. Plus i prefer my games to offer the slightest bit of challenge (and no finding a good hiding spot every 30 seconds to re-apply invisibility doesn't count). 

[Tr1ples1xer]

the intention here is to improve upon what DE has already begun. They have made this change for a reason and are unlikely to revert. Plus i prefer my games to offer the slightest bit of challenge (and no finding a good hiding spot every 30 seconds to re-apply invisibility doesn't count). 

challenge in a game where you have to repeat the same mission 50 times for 1 item ? no fin way !! dying is NOT fun at all, i want to PLAY and have fun, you want challenge change game  and leave us our fun.

[Marthrym]

I agree, and a system such as this should be extended to non invisible gameplay as well. Giving the enemies the ability to attempt to predict movement, react to environmental changes and player interaction is something a player should experience all the time.

 

Make evasiveness a thing... because enemies should have a hard time reacting to flippy ninjas

They already do predict our movements. Just saying.^^

I think DE tackled the stealth issue in a really bad way... I mean, they should have started with "regular stealth", instead of starting by changing something that supposedly revolves around it... Not to mention it's buggy as frack... enemies know where you are even with silent weapons for instance.^^'

Edited July 1, 2014 by Marthrym

[Rakosta_Kai]

challenge in a game where you have to repeat the same mission 50 times for 1 item ? no fin way !! dying is NOT fun at all, i want to PLAY and have fun, you want challenge change game  and leave us our fun.

Actually...

It was the game that changed from challenging to easy.

 

Ask a rank 0 new player with no help running mercury missions solo how challenging the game is and you'd get another story.

 

It's the exponential increases in damage Tenno enjoy as they amass more mods and equipment while our enemies enjoyed a purely linear power increase that stole challenge.

 

The idea being presented here is a way to create risk vs reward without employing a nerf.

 

That makes it a good idea.

 

That said, though....

 

If DE wants a game that is going to appeal to all categories of player. They might consider adding mission difficulty options that allow players to opt-in to higher risk for higher reward scenarios or choose low difficulty mission that allow them to god-mode their way through missions like many of us do now.

[Tr1ples1xer]

Actually...

It was the game that changed from challenging to easy.

 

Ask a rank 0 new player with no help running mercury missions solo how challenging the game is and you'd get another story.

 

It's the exponential increases in damage Tenno enjoy as they amass more mods and equipment while our enemies enjoyed a purely linear power increase that stole challenge.

 

The idea being presented here is a way to create risk vs reward without employing a nerf.

 

That makes it a good idea.

 

That said, though....

 

If DE wants a game that is going to appeal to all categories of player. They might consider adding mission difficulty options that allow players to opt-in to higher risk for higher reward scenarios or choose low difficulty mission that allow them to god-mode their way through missions like many of us do now.

Yeah i'd agree with a difficulty slider but after 1000 hours of play and progression I expect to unleash hell ANYWHERE I go, what would be the point of progressing if you'd still be as weak as when you started out ? I want the grineer to feel all those hours right in the face !!

[Rakosta_Kai]

They already do predict our movements. Just saying.^^

I think DE tackled the stealth issue in a really bad way... I mean, they should have started with "regular stealth", instead of starting by changing something that supposedly revolves around it... Not to mention it's buggy as frack... enemies know where you are even with silent weapons for instance.^^'

I was a sad panda when I had to remove Coolant Leak when running on Ash or Loki. :|

 

Now I only equip it when I am using a whip.

 

The only thing that really bugged me about the Stealth changes was the fact they had to be caught by players instead of being announced.

 

It's shady and belies respect and regard for the players, in my opinion.

 

I like the way DE_Rebecca handled it though.

[[DE]Momaw]

you want enemies to be aware all the time

 

Way to completely fail to read my post, bro.  You can still be invisible and basically godlike but you're going to have to work for it by:  moving quickly (like everybody else), using silent weapons, and avoid bumping into enemies. Currently invisibility breaks the game SO HARD and it's pathetically easy to do. If you use invisibility then you aren't even really "playing", you're just wandering around a shooting/stabbing gallery where enemies are completely unable to fight back.

 

Gods forbid Loki players have to actually pay attention to what they are doing, or learn about their other three abilities or occasionally take a few stray bullets.

[Tr1ples1xer]

Way to completely fail to read my post, bro.  You can still be invisible and basically godlike but you're going to have to work for it by:  moving quickly (like everybody else), using silent weapons, and avoid bumping into enemies. Currently invisibility breaks the game SO HARD and it's pathetically easy to do. If you use invisibility then you aren't even really "playing", you're just wandering around a shooting/stabbing gallery where enemies are completely unable to fight back.

 

Gods forbid Loki players have to actually pay attention to what they are doing, or learn about their other three abilities or occasionally take a few stray bullets.

WOW breaks the game for who ? I don't understand or agree with you AT ALL you must be coming from pvp and asking for invis nerf, If you think it breaks the game just don't use it, how hard is that to comprehend ? I actually think your ideas would break loki, why not remove every ability because they all break the game you know, and while we're at it remove every weapon because you can kill with them that breaks the game so hard... absolute nonsense !! Running around invisible and not having enemies know you're there and killing them at your leisure is amazingly FUN it is the only time you can do that, otherwise you have 1000 baddies shooting at you with hit-scan weapons. Once again warframe might not be the game for you if you think dying is more fun than playing...

[Viverim]

I have no idea about your experience, but if you go invisible while an enemy can see you, they can still apparently track you while invisible.  I have gotten surprised by a wandering guard while playing Loki, went invisible, and STILL got shot while I tried to run to cover in another room.  They seemed to follow me just fine after I turned invisible.  THAT is broken.

 

And I have problems with the entire "enemies alerted" thing anyway.  I kill someone with a rifle (not even a particularly loud rifle, mind you) in one room, and apparently enemies on the other side of the next room can hear me through the closed doors?  These would be the same doors that slam shut to lock out pressure loss?  Really?

 

Face it.  Warframe's "stealth" system is horribly broken and unlikely to be fixed anytime soon.  Those of us who enjoy stealth have the option of either suffering with the mangled mess that we have now for stealth mechanics, or go totally invisble.  Feast or famine.  And you want to remove the feast, leaving famine or a balogna sandwich.

 

Much thanks.  =(

[Tr1ples1xer]

I have no idea about your experience, but if you go invisible while an enemy can see you, they can still apparently track you while invisible.  I have gotten surprised by a wandering guard while playing Loki, went invisible, and STILL got shot while I tried to run to cover in another room.  They seemed to follow me just fine after I turned invisible.  THAT is broken.

 

And I have problems with the entire "enemies alerted" thing anyway.  I kill someone with a rifle (not even a particularly loud rifle, mind you) in one room, and apparently enemies on the other side of the next room can hear me through the closed doors?  These would be the same doors that slam shut to lock out pressure loss?  Really?

 

Face it.  Warframe's "stealth" system is horribly broken and unlikely to be fixed anytime soon.  Those of us who enjoy stealth have the option of either suffering with the mangled mess that we have now for stealth mechanics, or go totally invisble.  Feast or famine.  And you want to remove the feast, leaving famine or a balogna sandwich.

 

Much thanks.  =(

YES

 

That's why I'm saying he must come from pvp and keeps getting killed by invis players. Why would anyone be against full invisibility ? And afaik we are all on the same team why would you want your own teammate to be negated full invisibility ? Why would anyone say that it breaks the game ? I for one thinks it makes the game ! I'm telling you only reason is because of PVP    =(

[TenshuYuusha]

So to summarize, you want Invisibility awareness to function similar to MGS when you use the Stealth Camo. Enemies alerted if they're touched or hear loud gunfire. To be honest, I like the idea, though perhaps invisibility itself should function like how enemies can see you if you're the Predator in the old AVP game. Unless the enemy takes a good look at you and sees the distortion your invis is making to their sight, they can only patrol the area to try to find you.

Edit: Invisibility should probably be a good power against Grineer, but have Corpus have an advantage due to their tech. Have say, the Scout be able to scan the area for enemies that are cloaked. It doesn't decloak you, but if a Scout finds you out, it'd behoove you to take out the Scout? (obviously the Scout would have to be alerted otherwise they could normally scan their immediate area while patrolling) Just a thought. (anyone who has played the Batman Arkham games, this idea is similar to the enemies that can find you with thermal goggles)

Edited July 1, 2014 by TenshuYuusha

[Viverim]

The real problem is that enemies in this game are all sharp-shooters.  IF they can see you, they can hit you.  How many times have you been shot to pieces while under partial cover from a grineer lancer on the opposite side of one of the bigger map tiles?  Thus camoflage, in the current game, would be meaningless.  They can partially see you, they shoot the cr@p out of you.

 

IF enemies had, oh, I don't know, maybe variable levels of accuracy, then partial invisibility might be worthwhile.  Since we are apparently facing enemies cloned from Wild Bill Hickok and Annie Oakley, however, only full invisibility has any impact (and that not as strong as it would seem) on enemy accuracy.

[TenshuYuusha]

The real problem is that enemies in this game are all sharp-shooters.  IF they can see you, they can hit you.  How many times have you been shot to pieces while under partial cover from a grineer lancer on the opposite side of one of the bigger map tiles?  Thus camoflage, in the current game, would be meaningless.  They can partially see you, they shoot the cr@p out of you.

 

IF enemies had, oh, I don't know, maybe variable levels of accuracy, then partial invisibility might be worthwhile.  Since we are apparently facing enemies cloned from Wild Bill Hickok and Annie Oakley, however, only full invisibility has any impact (and that not as strong as it would seem) on enemy accuracy.

Really? I only really have trouble with MOA accuracy, while yes a Lancer tends to be more accurate than a Ballista, shot to pieces is a stretch.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Way to completely fail to read my post, bro.  You can still be invisible and basically godlike but you're going to have to work for it by:  moving quickly (like everybody else), using silent weapons, and avoid bumping into enemies. Currently invisibility breaks the game SO HARD and it's pathetically easy to do. If you use invisibility then you aren't even really "playing", you're just wandering around a shooting/stabbing gallery where enemies are completely unable to fight back.

 

Gods forbid Loki players have to actually pay attention to what they are doing, or learn about their other three abilities or occasionally take a few stray bullets.

 

This is not really true. Enemies will, right now (on PS4), still shoot at the last locale that they saw a visible tenno and still run up and swing at the last seen spot. What off-sets this is that the invisible tenno are weaker in health and shields than the rest. So getting hit by bleed proc or elemental damage really hurts even though you are still invisible. Just because you go invisible doesn't mean you don't get hit, you just get hit less. You still get hit by overlapping streams of fire, aura and aoe damage.

 

So all the Loki's you see that manage to survive in end-game content are already very good at paying attention which is why they don't die. I rock Ash as my main and I see many dead Loki's too. Loki is incredibly squishy and can be killed by a single hard-hitting attack. So to be good with him (though I hate the Loki master race crap) is an accomplishment and requires great skill.

 

So if you take away the effectiveness of our stealth, the game might as well not have it, because without invisibility the frames would not survive at all due to lack of health and shields.

 

The truth is DE's game engine and stuff are not advanced enough to handle such high-end game mechanics, so they shouldn't have nerfed invisibility as they did. Having enemy AI being able to reason the concept of invisibility considers many variables and is very hard to implement and do so correctly. 

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

The real problem is that enemies in this game are all sharp-shooters.  IF they can see you, they can hit you.  How many times have you been shot to pieces while under partial cover from a grineer lancer on the opposite side of one of the bigger map tiles?  Thus camoflage, in the current game, would be meaningless.  They can partially see you, they shoot the cr@p out of you.

 

IF enemies had, oh, I don't know, maybe variable levels of accuracy, then partial invisibility might be worthwhile.  Since we are apparently facing enemies cloned from Wild Bill Hickok and Annie Oakley, however, only full invisibility has any impact (and that not as strong as it would seem) on enemy accuracy.

 

This is also very true. We have accuracy loss due to mods/different weps' stats, but enemies don't.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

So to summarize, you want Invisibility awareness to function similar to MGS when you use the Stealth Camo. Enemies alerted if they're touched or hear loud gunfire. To be honest, I like the idea, though perhaps invisibility itself should function like how enemies can see you if you're the Predator in the old AVP game. Unless the enemy takes a good look at you and sees the distortion your invis is making to their sight, they can only patrol the area to try to find you.

Edit: Invisibility should probably be a good power against Grineer, but have Corpus have an advantage due to their tech. Have say, the Scout be able to scan the area for enemies that are cloaked. It doesn't decloak you, but if a Scout finds you out, it'd behoove you to take out the Scout? (obviously the Scout would have to be alerted otherwise they could normally scan their immediate area while patrolling) Just a thought. (anyone who has played the Batman Arkham games, this idea is similar to the enemies that can find you with thermal goggles)

I heard that DE is going to have units that can do this sometime in the future. They will most likely be Corpus too.

 

On PS4, right now, if I go invisible as Ash and shoot a camera with a stream weapon it will still see me, so this is already somewhat in effect.

[Onisa]

Oddly enough that is how my void experiences have been of late.

I'll be invisible, kill an enemy with my primary and a corrupter moa will come charging from another room and zero in on me as if I were visible.

The same thing happens if I move or remain in place. All the corrupted do it to some extent.

[[DE]Momaw]

1.) There are probably some BUGS with the way enemies sense invisible players. I've been testing things as game host, and you all should too. Post to the Bugs forum if things work differently as a client, like enemies failing to break contact when you turn invisible.

 

 

2.) The PS4 version is irrelevant. You guys are several versions behind. I just tested invisibility on PC, and while some enemies will continue attacking the place I vanished from for about one second after I go invisible if they can see me when I activate it, they are clearly just acting out their last attack and don't really have any idea where I am.

 

 

3.) ...The previous can be completely negated by using Decoy or just going invisible while hidden. I think I mentioned something about players relying too heavily on one single press-button-to-win feature of their frames...

 

 

4.) I don't play PVP aside from testing a few things. Don't assume.

 

 

5.) Haven't touched any of the Metal Gear games. Can't relate to the comparison.

[TenshuYuusha]

 

5.) Haven't touched any of the Metal Gear games. Can't relate to the comparison.

You didn't really need to, I said what happens there in the very next sentence. :v

[Viverim]

It's not just the corrupted.  I have noticed this since I have been trying to level up Loki Prime. 

[fatpig84]

Psst.

Disarm master race.

[DeadX65]

you didn't experiment much OP,

they throw grenades at your location,

they continue shooting at you even if you move and do nothing else, very accurately.

fusion/corrupted moas will run up and burn you, follow you to burn you. they don't even have to be in the same room. somehow they hear accurately through walls exactly where you are.

standard moas will track and fire.

grineer corrupted will track, fire, hit you moving while inviz, for long distances. seems to apply to all grineer lancer types.

heavies will groundslam.

 

it needs toned down. sound in a lot of the tilesets would be drowned out/muffled/distorted by the environmental noise. not to mention distance falloff around corridors, through walls and doors. unless all enemies have superior ninja style hearing, including the robots they are NOT going to be able to pinpoint exactly where you are unless you stand in one spot firing an unsilenced weapon for some time.

 

they are most certainly NOT going to be able to track you accurately, through all that enviro sound when you're just running and hit you every time.

 

this game is, and has been full of logic holes, do try not to help them make more. grineer are already more powerful than any other faction but the tenno. prosecutors.

 

they send a squad of prosecutors backed up by heavies and other grineer? bye bye corpus, leave out the toxic and it's good bye infested. they have arc traps that can detect stealth, their lancers can hit an invisible target running 50 meters away accurately even after becoming corrupted. their commanders are better at teleporting than anything the tenno has, no LOS required and a longer stun.

 

there has been a LOT that is overdone. problem is it rarely gets revisited, instead more gets piled on. stealth no matter how screwed up it is atm, does not need to be made even worse.

Edited July 2, 2014 by DeadX65