notionphil Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Last week's smack-storm and the resulting community response shows how passionate both the devs and many players are about keeping Warframe's progression based on a mod system. I've always been a supporter of the concept of the mod system, and an opponent of unnecessary overhauls for the sake of "shaking things up". However, I recognize there's a significant series of flaws in the current state of mods.While I disagree with nearly all of the far-flung conclusions (and solutions) drawn in the "complete overhaul of warframe" thread, I strongly agree with one of it's premises."Warframe suffers from Samey Builds." Here's why:Some mods are significantly more effective than others in every gameplay situationCore Mods are Required (and boring)Serration, Multishot, Redirection OR Vitality. These are core mods that show up in nearly every build. Without these mods, you are playing the game at a significant disadvantage compared to your fellow Tenno. Do these required mods do something cool? Nope. They offer a straight dmg or effective health boost. Yawn!Cue the peanut gallery, informing us they soloed a T4 till 40m with only Eagle Eye, Maglev + Steel Fiber + Intruder. Yes, I know you CAN play with any build, but what is the design benefit of having a small number of mods perform significantly better in all of the game's content? To give us more options to handicap ourselves? In that case I can also play with my monitor off, but that's not much fun is it?So, we need skill trees amiright?No! The presumable advantage of skill trees over a mod system (relating to builds) is that it would force players to choose between different, viable options. There is absolutely zero reason why a choice between different, viable options cannot be incorporated into the existing mod system.Yo Dawg, I Heard You Like to ModImagine you are loading out your newly maxed Boltor Prime with a fresh crop of mods. What's first? Serration and Multishot. The core of any solid weapon build are these two mods which literally determine your base damage. There's no reason to ever equip anything INSTEAD of a serration or multishot.But what if you could choose between different types of Serration and Multishot...or any Core Mods?Let's go back to your hypothetical Boltor Prime mod session. Imagine scrolling through your mod list, and seeing multiple Serration variants that all boosted base damage - but applied other interesting effects which aren't universally beneficial, but instead work with a certain playstyle. These variants would not stack - you'd only be able to equip one of each type of Core Mod.Imagine seeing these, right under your Serration: Followed by these multishot mods... Multishot Mods: affects ammo and reload Multishot: 120% multishotPhased Multishot: +100% multishot, +1 ammo added to clip for each round that hits a weak spotSkirmish Multishot: +100% multishot, clip size reduced by 25%, reload speed increased by 50%Overcharged Multishot: 200% multishot, each round consumes 2 ammoTactical Multishot: +100% multishot, move 50% faster when zooming, reload doesn't take you out of zoometc... And the same with your frame... Redirection/Vitality Mods: affects damage mitigation/avoidance/survivability (can only get 2ndary benefit from either redirection or vitality, they don't stack) Redirection/Vitality: 440% Shield/health Nimble Redirection: +300% shield, + 25% jump height/distance, no rolls after falling, slide distance +25% Uncompromising Redirection: +330% shield, proc effects reduced in severity and duration by 50% Veiled Redirection: +250% shield, +50% damage reduction while Parkouring Martyr's Redirection: +400% shield, revives fallen tenno at 2x rate Chaotic Redirection: +220% shield/health, up to 50% bonus damage when shield is not at max etc... Build Diversity Without Massive Change With well thought-out Core Mod variants, there would be no 'default' way to build your weapon or frame. Players would combine different Core Mods to take their build in a unique direction - without gimping themself. Want a fast moving support build? Try Ruinous Serration + Tactical Multishot + Veiled Redirection. Going for heavy hitters and frontloaded damage? Try Regular Serration, Overcharged Multishot and Chaotic Redirection.The Devil is in the Details So how would we obtain all of these Mod Variants? They'd be ideal quest rewards for the new Proxy Wars. Alternately, I'd suggest making them drop from Eximus leaders, as they're currently not dropping anything particularly interesting. Anything besides being added to the typical enemy tables. Mods should have 95% Fusion transfer within their family, meaning if you fuse a Rank 10 serration into a Rank 10 Culling Serration, the result is Rank 9.5...and you get a free Rank 0 Serration left over. It's enough to try out a new style, but not enough to switch between them at a whim. With Core Mod Variants, a player can pick one play style that appeals to him and rank up...or spend time and effort ranking up multiple paths to have more options at his disposal. Sounds a lot like the effect of skill trees, without having to rebuild the entire game. The combinations of Core Mods are numerous - and you'll never have to sacrifice being viable just to be different. Additionally DE can always make new Core Mod variants, to add new builds without increasing the power cap. Edited July 10, 2014 by notionphil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)elduterino Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 loving this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStag Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 We just need to remove the useless mods. Who uses Warm Coat? ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Nilphelan Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) This is the direction MODS should consider going.. I believe in just taking our current system and mutating the CORE mods & seeing what works then branching out further to mutate or remove utility mods. Or just making the utility mods their own system within the game as a passive or active ability as a stand-alone system (something like Destiny) or a skill tree like WoW. Removing the utility mods would remove the clutter and non-sense a player has to go through to disrupting a build to just run faster, or be silent. Edited July 7, 2014 by (PS4)Nilphelan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)elduterino Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Another thought: actual "treasure chests" that can be found that hold just mods (Rare & Uncommon only, possibly.). These would make for additional items to search for in levels (i.e. vault runs in other areas throughout the map). It would be interesting if some of the "secret rooms" in tile sets actually had a quality reward for taking the time to explore the level, or give the opportunity for more of these hidden locations to be worked into upcoming maps. I feel like additions to the game, much like your initial suggestion, could really improve the game quickly without having to rework the entire systems currently in place. just a thought. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I did a thread to suggest something really similar here. Great minds think alike. Have a + 1 you handsome rogue, you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eprstt Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 nice. really. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumarbrandr Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkjackal_2031 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 This is exactly what the game needs to fix the system. I love it. +1 for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 I did a thread to suggest something really similar here. Great minds think alike. Have a + 1 you handsome rogue, you. I like your idea as well...was trying to keep it simple as I usually do I really like the idea of randomness and was going to work it into this system, but stopped short for simplicty's sake. My intent was for each mod to have a prefix like above, and a suffix indicating its origin (Prime, Corrupted, Vandal, Wraith). which would also add other stats/penalties. Each drop would have a random suffix and potentially a prefix, and each would have a small numerical range. However, I went with this instead for now, and will add complexity to it later if need be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl_Facehugger Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I really like this idea. That being said though, I think it only fixes 75% of the problem. There's still "useless" mods like eagle eye and the like that still won't get used, and some form of serration will still be a required mod, it's just there's more serrations to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MXultra Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 I really like this idea. That being said though, I think it only fixes 75% of the problem. There's still "useless" mods like eagle eye and the like that still won't get used, and some form of serration will still be a required mod, it's just there's more serrations to choose from. This is true, but the part of the problem I'm trying to fix gets fixed - lack of viable builds. It doesn't really matter to us that there are crappy useless mods (except for anger at diluted drops tables). Most games have trash drops like wooden swords and tin helmets. What does matter is that there aren't enough interesting, different mods that are as useful as the "core" ones. EG: WF has 50 types of useless wooden swords and one magic diamond sword. We need more useful swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-FrostByte- Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 you are right! we need fun-er mods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I like your idea as well...was trying to keep it simple as I usually do I really like the idea of randomness and was going to work it into this system, but stopped short for simplicty's sake. My intent was for each mod to have a prefix like above, and a suffix indicating its origin (Prime, Corrupted, Vandal, Wraith). which would also add other stats/penalties. Each drop would have a random suffix and potentially a prefix, and each would have a small numerical range. However, I went with this instead for now, and will add complexity to it later if need be My iteration isn't much more complex (if at all), the examples are somewhat more thorough. Otherwise, I was also thinking of a "suffix/prefix" kind of modifier, just that they are spread to more mods than just the "core" mods. I really like this idea. That being said though, I think it only fixes 75% of the problem. There's still "useless" mods like eagle eye and the like that still won't get used, and some form of serration will still be a required mod, it's just there's more serrations to choose from. Also a problem, but the "useless" mods could also get variant to make them more desireable. IE weakpoint highlighting with Eagle Eye, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingIzek Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Notionphil. you are so god damn sexy - Also you have pretty neat ideas also it kinda sounds like you're modding... mods Edited July 7, 2014 by KingIzek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liminal Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) I like it. I'd go a little bit further and make elemental mods only transform a % of the weapon's damage into fire/toxic/magnetic/etc. since they've become mandatory per faction. And then of course redo enemy hp scaling. Hell, I'm not even sure that would stop them from being mandatory ... Edited July 7, 2014 by The_Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatose Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Wait, a well reasoned suggestion that limits it's scope to a single, oft-voiced problem, clearly considers how it fits into the existing systems and how difficult it would be to implement, and doesn't immediately opt for throwing out the baby bathtub entire bathroom out with the bathwater? But that has a remote chance of being implemented without direct divine intervention! Don't we have forum rules against this madness? Take my upvote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lautalocos Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 i propose a simpler solution to implement this idea. instead of making compeletely new rank 10 mods (which take forever to max out, would clutter the drop rates even more and), make all of these new special mods a single level mod that changes the normal version of the mod example: you have a rank 10 redirection. you equip it with a "nimble" modification, changing its 440% bonus to shields to a +300% shield, + 25% jump height/distance, no rolls after falling, slide distance +25% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 i propose a simpler solution to implement this idea. instead of making compeletely new rank 10 mods (which take forever to max out, would clutter the drop rates even more and), make all of these new special mods a single level mod that changes the normal version of the mod example: you have a rank 10 redirection. you equip it with a "nimble" modification, changing its 440% bonus to shields to a +300% shield, + 25% jump height/distance, no rolls after falling, slide distance +25% 1) "equipping a mod to a mod" would require an entirely new user interface screen. 2) where would you get the "nimble" modification? Hint: It's Warframe....and DE's choice, so....RNG drops. Thus, it would have all of the RNG disadvantage of my idea, and still require a new interface. Additionally your suggestion would allow you to instantly switch between Core variants, by equipping different modifications....which is not my intention, and I doubt it would be DE's either. I assume they'd want you to have to work for multiple max modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiraShado Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I actually for the first time, like this feedback on the mod system.However. RNG, as you said notionphil. RNG will hate us all. (Unless they implement a way like they did for specters of liberty or something but that doesn't really apply to mods like serration.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CY13ERPUNK Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 another great OP from Notionphil +1 while i disagree that any frame mods are core/required, ie you can play at the t4 lvl without redirection/vitality/etc, most frames survive at those lvls thru dmg/cc, not durability i completely agree however that base dmg mods and multishot for all weapons are core/required and anything to remove/change them is a step in the right direction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead_Zeratul Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) This is true, but the part of the problem I'm trying to fix gets fixed - lack of viable builds. It doesn't really matter to us that there are crappy useless mods (except for anger at diluted drops tables). Most games have trash drops like wooden swords and tin helmets. What does matter is that there aren't enough interesting, different mods that are as useful as the "core" ones. EG: WF has 50 types of useless wooden swords and one magic diamond sword. We need more useful swords. The minecraft is strong with this one. I have been thinking for a while that "normal" or "core" mods should by default, have drawbacks or secondary stats. The main flow of gear progression, in say, Diablo, is low end gear gets at least as much deficits as it does bonuses. You then progress into gear that has less and less deficits, into the standard, plain old gear. After you get your normal gear, you start getting additional bonuses (magical items in Diablo). Again we reach higher into better and better bonuses, some of which even synergize with each other (set items). At it's highest point, we have multiple bonuses with nearly 0 deficits. Now, granted, this is in a game where there is a definite progression with a LOT of properties on a character to take advantage of. In WF, however, the player and their equipment don't have nearly as many properties to take advantage of, so we have to rely on balancing out the number of bonuses of each mod so that their equipment doesn't solely rely on a small set of mods. Some mods can reach fairly high with their bonuses alone, and instead should drop down a bit but add a secondary bonus (sometimes not even relating to the main bonus - sprint speed bonus added to multishot for a run-and-gun playstyle perhaps?) In general, I've always though of double stat mods to have lower bonuses than their single, standard counterparts, and the corrupted mods to have a higher positive to make up for the deficit; but maybe that's not the right way to think about this. Maybe we just need to limit the number of mods that apply the same bonus to a given property (as to lower the amount of +damage/HP/Shields/etc. on a given piece of equipment) but also provide alternative bonuses/deficits where applicable to vary up the gameplay. As you said, make an alternate version of serration give less damage, but also give you bonus damage to weak spots (Vor's belly or headshots); or possibly even give more damage, but decrease accuracy and recoil so that you might hit less often. Edit: wording. Edit 2: second thought down below instead of new post: On the subject of Diablo games, as well as the comments the devs have made about mods coming in different qualities, why not give mods prefixes and suffixes that add alternate bonuses/deficits? to give an example, why not have something like the following (Note - numbers are thrown out at random, and do not represent in any way any actual numbers): "Molten Serration" - +200% Fire Damage (not just straight damage) "Vitality of Quick Reflexes" - +400% Health, +20% knockdown recovery "Deflective Redirection" - +300% Shields, +25% shield recovery However, you can have sets of mods, wherein the more mods of a given "set" you apply to your piece of equipment, or maybe even the entire loadout as a whole (if they apply to different pieces of equipment), the more bonuses are applied. "Space Ninja's Collection" - Mod Set that as more are equipped, the player gains more bonuses towards playing stealthily, such as more silent weapons, bonus damage to unalerted enemies, etc. "Vor's Prize" - See what I did there? A mod set that gives bonus damage to Corpus units, resistance to lasers and piercing damage, etc. (Basically what a general of the Grineer Military would want, to better combat the corpus forces.) "Spoils of the Void" - A mod set that can be only applied to prime equipment (maybe Vor's Prize can only be applied to wraith equipment?) that adds some other bonuses (can't think of anything specific here, I apologize) You get the idea. Edited July 7, 2014 by Undead_Zeratul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 So a Diablo styled prefix-suffix system, but it's preset so you have a bunch of choices to what you can slot? I... Approve. You could even expand it to status procs, and maybe even the elemental mods too. That's six levels of awesome right there. I WISH that the Mods and Devs would look into this. I think this is genius. And I think it would help streamline the entire system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Billion Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Notionphil, you bring up a very interesting solution; have different variations of OP mods with certain drawbacks that could be quest rewards. Wow.. reread the post and saw how bad I #*($%%@ up... My bad lol But this idea just seems more complicated than what Zamboni suggests; a Warframe structure dividing your character into 3 succinct categories, in which you choose which parts to focus on. Your mod idea is like let's add different versions of existing OP mods. Edited July 7, 2014 by TitNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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