Melee 2.4 (Read: Two-Point-Far), Or "how To Decapitate Grineer From A Distance"

[Calayne]

This is a thread that primarily aims to suggest Melee Mode improvements!

Currently, the main issues encountered by melee players include, but are not limited to: Being unable to hit enemies which are somewhat higher than you are, being unable to hit enemies which are below you, and the ever-present issue for multiplayer games: Enemies dying from a mocking headshot from a distance, just as you close the distance, after eating an appetizing feast of lead and gunpowder.

I will not be addressing being unable to hit enemies lower than you are, and I will not be addressing the issues of damage; Those are handled reasonably well outside of this thread, and I believe they have potential solutions somewhere in the forums. Also, it's one bite too large of melee for me.

I will, however, be proposing three supplementary moves that is general and available for all melee weapons, and melee-mode users, as well as one which will benefit non-melee-mode users as well.

Here they are:

Roll attacks,
Dashing attacks, and finally,
Jump attacks.

Allow me to first clarify the intent of these improvements: It is to smoothen the creamy, vanilla-like texture of Melee 2.0, which was very well done, but lacks the finishing touch (We have a mod for that, I know) to really make melee shine. Melee, as it is, is indeed good fun, but it lacks the mobility to also qualify it to be in the category of "Devastating", though that is slowly and surely being worked on.

Parry blocks most things, and is a fantastic addition to our arsenal; Channelling allows you to do more damage; Combos allow many other functions, theoretically. However, before one uses two out of three of these things, one has to actually be within reach (Another mod we have, Calayne) of your target, and this is, currently, rather lacking.

Thus far: The only way we have of closing the distance is really just waltzing up into their faces, Clint Eastwood style. This makes melee less mobile as it can be, as we are mostly ground to a halt during combos, causing pursuit to be less-than-graceful as we yell rather unceremoniously for our enemies to just slow down, and allow us to decapitate them with our finishing strike.

This is, of course, to say nothing of the osprey we beckon to lower themselves down, so we can show them something new and shiny (And razor sharp) we just got out of the foundry (And need affinity for).

Now, with that rather unrefined foreplay of your curiosity, I present to you my solution for Melee Mobility, Melee Two-Point-Far (Spoken with an Irish accent).

DASHING ATTACKS

 

This is an addition/replacement over our current roll while in melee-blocking mode. With this change, our rolls are now changed to dashes while blocking, thus allowing us to rapidly close the distance between us and our hapless foes, while our guard is still up, because rolling and revealing our teflon-coated-rear to lead-spraying hoses is not really such a good idea (As many a man can probably attest).

*Cough*

Talk of the crown jewels aside, it also includes with this a lunging, long ranged forward strike, which may be uniform for all weapons, or not. The Skana may utilise a simple horizontal slash, for instance, or a no-nonsense stab; The Nikana would look lovely if it had a battou-style quick-draw; The Scindo would look awesome with a rising uppercut, bisecting your opponent, family-jewels first (I'm sorry, I had to go there).

This concludes my first, and rather gruesome, first suggestion, which the Corpus (And their wives) would vehemently oppose. (You're not a Profit-loving Corpus... Are you?)

 

Edit (17/7/14): Thanks to Cas for this suggestion! During your dash, you may tap attack at any time at all to initiate your dash attack! This gives you superior control of your attack, allowing you to tactically implant your weapon into your opponent's sternum, or perform an emergency lobotomy on your enemy's beloved cranium. If you time it right at the end of your dash, you will also be able to use it as a transport! An alternative to the dominating transportation company, Zoren-Corp-Ter. As someone who has witnessed horrible economic atrocities committed by huge mega-corps, it should come as no surprise that we should not allow monopolies to exist!  Ride Rapid'Dash, for all your long-range decapitation needs!

Secondly,


ROLLING ATTACKS



As a supplement to the slide attack, the roll attack is a shorter range alternative for closing distance and increasing mobility while your melee attack is drawn. With the addition of this move, you're able to quickly roll past flaming wads of napalm, screaming wads of rockets, screeching wads of Scorpion spears, and a whole other range of wads and hot-lead-related projectiles.

The best part about this is that you don't necessarily need to be blocking to do this, either, and you're positively quick on your feet, going from one enemy to another with no sacrifice of lethality, much to the disdain of your Ogris-loving-compadres. I'm sorry, Tenno brethren. Time to let Skana have his fun.

And as you can see, with this move, the Grineer will have no opportunity to speak of their mothers before you come in and liberate their intestines from their armour-encased abdomens.


Finally...

JUMPING ATTACKS



The bane of all Tenno with a sword everywhere: Flying enemies. Mocking us as they hover a foot above our heads, we impotently shake our fist at them as they giggle in Corpus-dialect delight.

No longer, brethren. We will discharge them from their air-bound fortress, and with great vehemence/exuberance/vivacity/eagerness/gung-ho as we ejaculate praises (With our mouths, you dirty, dirty Tenno) to DE from beneath our blood-caked helmets, heaps of corpses of flying creatures piling around us.

The skies are no longer safe for any foe. We will rise. This is the move that the Tenno deserve, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt it because it can take--- Wait, dammit. Wrong quote.

ANYWAYS, NEW MOVES FOR TENNO EVERYWHERE! THE SWORD ALONE! ALONE, AT LONG LAST! LONG LIVE THE SKANA!

(And Darvo.)

 

Edit: An additional move for a jumping attack that may be considered would be something similar to the "Flying Swallow" of Ninja Gaiden! It's a pretty simple move, really, and you can do it too! Here's how:

 

First, you jump up; then at the apex of your jump, you release an immense burst of ki, propelling you straight out like a monkey with a helmet, shoved into a cannon and launched; Afterwards, you navigate the turbulence of flight, caused by not being exactly symmetrical, and also for the fact that Excalibur's butt is not the most aerofoil-like object in Warframe; Finally, after the speed-of-sound flight which has basically ravaged your frame and torn off your monkey-cannon-ball-helmet, you reach your target; From there, you simply pull out your sword and strike whatever's at the end of your nauseating physics-defying attack. 

 

Okay, so you can only do it if DE implements it. Just a very minor contextual slip. *Cough*. This is Casardis' suggestion for targets which are very, VERY high up, and may be something to consider so that players with swords only can reach very high objects! Think of it.... as a vertical zoren-copter! It should probably take some energy to do, since you're tearing physics apart by the ears, and shouldn't be something spammable indefinitely, I would think! 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Calayne

[PsychedelicSnake]

I admit I skimmed through this as I have a lot of feedback to go through in these forums (and a lot of threads to report for movement), but from what I've seen I can say I agree. Melee 2.0 was an excellent addition and a true improvement, in my opinion, but it can be improved further. Hopefully once Update 14 hits Scott and Steve and everyone else will take a second look at the mechanics in addition to their planned reworks of existing Warframes.

[Skynin]

You're amazing. I'm actually hope to see something like that in U14. But if not - a bit later

[Calayne]

I admit I skimmed through this as I have a lot of feedback to go through in these forums (and a lot of threads to report for movement), but from what I've seen I can say I agree. Melee 2.0 was an excellent addition and a true improvement, in my opinion, but it can be improved further. Hopefully once Update 14 hits Scott and Steve and everyone else will take a second look at the mechanics in addition to their planned reworks of existing Warframes.

 

That would be glorious. I have, thus far, withheld myself from going totally melee-only because of the range of obstacles that using only melee provides: Flying enemies, cameras, turrets, x-ray-doors, and so on. 

 

I have, however, spent a good amount of time chopping things up, and I really do think it's a huge improvement from before. Thank DE for that, really! But the amount of potential in this system is enormous; Simply based on their available technology, they can do so many improvements, additions and refinements that will truly make it stand out. 

 

But I hope what I heard from Geoff of Melee 2.0 is true: That this is simply the foundation, and bit by bit, as time goes on, all the kinks will be ironed out, and some embroidery can be added, until it's truly a shining example of first-class melee action. Warframe is unique in this regard, and I'd really enjoy it immensely if they fleshed it out and gave melee a bigger role in the game (That is to say, swords can give guns a run for their money).

 

So much to do, so little time. But I can wait, so long as it gets the honing it deserves in the end. We're not too far off, really. This sword already looks like a sword, it just needs a little heat-treating, polish, sharpening, and some tender loving care. 

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

yep, in the end that's what melee 2.0 really needs, a flow(also a mod) and a way to do it out of melee mode i'd say. and probably to add hitstun at all levels of play to prevent enemies you're attacking from simply running away while yelling "nananana-na-NA!" in grineer.

 

 

really liking your suggestions, for real (and also that excalibur butt on the last strip, i can feel the amount of work that went into it)

[TheErebus.]

+1 to all of this.

This would be a great addition to warframe.
 

[PsychedelicSnake]

-snippity reply snip-

Ever since Melee 2.0 hit I've been a dedicated melee-only player (with the exception of leveling items, of course). It's difficult to pull off when you run into the dreaded staircase or osprey, but it is possible. But as you said, improvements can be made, and I'm glad to hear Geoffcalibur Prime confirm that it will be revisited as time goes on. But I suppose that goes without saying and shouldn't really require confirmation, but at least it's been said.

[DarkDataStorm]

you my dear Sir, deserve a cookie! +1

[Calayne]

Ever since Melee 2.0 hit I've been a dedicated melee-only player (with the exception of leveling items, of course). It's difficult to pull off when you run into the dreaded staircase or osprey, but it is possible. But as you said, improvements can be made, and I'm glad to hear Geoffcalibur Prime confirm that it will be revisited as time goes on. But I suppose that goes without saying and shouldn't really require confirmation, but at least it's been said.

 

Man, it's a great comfort hearing that they're not gonna leave it as it is, really. There's a bunch of minor stuff that needs improvement from before until now, but slowly, they're being improved on, and that's one thing I love about DE. I've actually tried going full melee, and Ash is certainly one of the easiest Frames to go solo full-melee with, since he has Smoke Screen, and Shuriken, which are good for those squishy flying enemies. 

 

Other than that, though, Hellions have been far more easy to deal with after Melee 2.0, thanks to the new blocking system. It is SO GOOD. Could use a little tweaking here and there, but largely, Melee 2.0 has been good.

 

Geoffcalibur ftw, though.

 

yep, in the end that's what melee 2.0 really needs, a flow(also a mod) and a way to do it out of melee mode i'd say. and probably to add hitstun at all levels of play to prevent enemies you're attacking from simply running away while yelling "nananana-na-NA!" in grineer.

 

 

really liking your suggestions, for real (and also that excalibur butt on the last strip, i can feel the amount of work that went into it)

 

Haha, took me a while to get all of them sketched, but I gotta say, digital art is somewhat easier than traditional one, since I can layer. So, not too bad. ;)  But yeah, we definitely need better hitstun on enemies! Some of them can get away mid-combo, and that's just really annoying.

[Shion963]

I like all of these! (And Darvo)

[KenseiSeraph]

JUMPING ATTACKS

The bane of all Tenno with a sword everywhere: Flying enemies. Mocking us as they hover a foot above our heads, we impotently shake our fist at them as they giggle in Corpus-dialect delight.

No longer, brethren. We will discharge them from their air-bound fortress, and with great vehemence/exuberance/vivacity/eagerness/gung-ho as we ejaculate praises (With our mouths, you dirty, dirty Tenno) to DE from beneath our blood-caked helmets, heaps of corpses of flying creatures piling around us.

The skies are no longer safe for any foe. We will rise. This is the move that the Tenno deserve, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt it because it can take--- Wait, dammit. Wrong quote.

ANYWAYS, NEW MOVES FOR TENNO EVERYWHERE! THE SWORD ALONE! ALONE, AT LONG LAST! LONG LIVE THE SKANA!

(And Darvo.)

We need this.

I usually use the flying kick followed by the falling jump attack when closing with enemies, chasing enemies or when an enemy is at the wrong height, but it doesn't work on airborne enemies (although the falling jump attack can harm airborne the hitbox is tiny).

[Calayne]

We need this.

I usually use the flying kick followed by the falling jump attack when closing with enemies, chasing enemies or when an enemy is at the wrong height, but it doesn't work on airborne enemies (although the falling jump attack can harm airborne the hitbox is tiny).

 

LoL, so far, I've been killing flying enemies with the lucky slide-attack mid-air, and the wall attack, if they're close enough. Aiming that thing and taking trajectory into consideration is a HUGE pain.  I've actually never managed to do a jump-attack on a flying enemy before! Heh, it'd be pretty cool to see it happen.

[Doughalo2]

YEA AND A COMEDIAN +1 !!!!!!!! :D

[DCypherThis13]

First things first, you have earned my +1 just for the very engaging read.

 

However, after reading everything, all I can say is, "Why didn't I think of this?" It's simple(sort of) and the movements are part of what we, as Tenno, do in every day life. I can not say that adding this would do anything but help the game progress. It's just a shame that I can't upvote more than once.

[Calayne]

First things first, you have earned my +1 just for the very engaging read.

 

However, after reading everything, all I can say is, "Why didn't I think of this?" It's simple(sort of) and the movements are part of what we, as Tenno, do in every day life. I can not say that adding this would do anything but help the game progress. It's just a shame that I can't upvote more than once.

 

Haha, thanks! Glad it wasn't a boring read!

 

Don't worry, you don't need to vote it more than once.  ;)  

 

The hope is that the developers will implement this as part of their melee improvement scheme (Which, I'm sure, they already have something in mind for)! I'm a huge melee fan, and it's one reason why I joined Warframe in the first place: The visceral combat system was just so alluring. Brutal, really, and so much fun to look at. It was even better in game, when I started hacking enemies into many pieces, literally.

[Skynin]

BTW, that's funny how Excalibur became Rhino after jump :&

[Fijasrules]

This is a fantastic idea and I hope something similar to this could be added to the game next huge patch (update 15 not 14). 

[Calayne]

This is a fantastic idea and I hope something similar to this could be added to the game next huge patch (update 15 not 14). 

 

Haha, that would be nice, but preferably, it'll be a small update somewhere in between! It'll be months before the next big update!

 

On the other hand, speaking of Update 15, if this does come out then, I'd really hope it will come with Notionphil's "Balance 2.0", "Better Dumb AI", Handspring as a core-mechanic, and Casardis' Channelling suggestions.

 

Notion's stuff:

Balance 2.0

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233948-balance-20-the-cost-of-power

 

Better Dumb AI

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/

 

 

Cas' Topic:

Channelling Effects

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/235335-enhanced-melee-channeling-innate-and-unique-channeling-properties/

 

This, hand in hand with the improvements to our arsenal, would make Warframe far more engaging than it is now, in one single blow. Damage 2.0 was a good change, but still didn't entirely solve the problem. Melee 2.0 was an excellent change, but still needs refining. Let's hope Balance 2.0 will cover all the bases, refine what needs it, and add glorious golden spires to our solidly-built foundation of Grineer skulls, Corpus helmets and half-eaten Infested.

 

Rot-eaten, I mean. You guys don't really eat Infested. 

 

...Right?

[Casardis]

First and foremost, Calayne, I'm really glad you made such suggestions! The combination of your art, your in-depth feedback and active discussion, along with your humor, really brings the attention to it. Secondly, overall, I really have no complaints over your suggestions!

 

 

DASHING ATTACKS

 

A dash has always been what I thought we'd get, or at least a faster roll, instead of the current clumsy one we have that is, to be honest, mediocre in most situations. You're often better off simply butt-sliding to an enemy in order to attack them, which can easily miss an enemy due to how it works. A Dash will be good, and a Dash Attack is even better.

 

The only thing I'd add to the idea is that  the player can press the attack button at ANY TIME during the dash, so that  they can measure the distance between them and the enemy much better. An issue we often have when using melee, especially if you're not using the clunky-feeling melee targeting system, is that you'll easily slide pass an enemy mid attacks, especially with combos that bring you forward (what's the point of completing the combo in this case if you can't even perform the last, powerful hits on the heavy unit or boss, during combo?). In that sense, being able to gauge the distance with the dashing attack will be better.

 

One can use it at the last second of the dash so it gives them even more distance to hit a far away enemy, or one can press it right from the start to perform a stunning stab 4 feet away from them, since their Skana still can't reach that distance with regular slashes.

 

ROLLING ATTACKS

 

Absolutely nothing to add here. Without going into details, the suggestion itself doesn't seem like it needs much tweaking. It will enter seamlessly, will increase melee responsiveness and make it more viable even without equipping it.

 

 

JUMPING ATTACKS

 

All of my YES. This, among all the rest, should have been in melee 2.0 in the first place. It was requested as far away as in early open beta at least, and melee 2.0, which was to overhaul the melee system (implying core systems too), could have touched upon this, but for a whole update that was supposed to focus on it, none of that happened.

 

Ranting aside, I do have a few concerns. The Crouch + Attack combination seems a bit iffy, especially since we need crouch + attack in the air in order to perform coptering (which by now it's safe to assume it will never go away, just like butt-sliding). The difference is that the latter requires sprint to be held as well, but I think it can still create some confusion. In that sense, a separate button combination may be done, but I'm not sure which would be the best (maybe holding down the attack button, or pressing Reload?). I might be wrong in the end and crouch + attack might be the best option, since it makes sense.

 

One more thing. While jump attacks are great, there are times where certain "enemies" can't be reached with a regular jump. Therefore, despite the increased radius of attack from a jump attack, it won't be able to hit them (arc traps, highly placed cameras on Corpus tilesets, Lephantis, Raptor etc). This doesn't seem like it will help with bosses that have weakpoints either (Lephantis again, Ruk, Vay Hek phase 1) without tedious effort since the parkour system needs work, and those flying enemies just go around the place without much telegraphed pattern at times (in other games, they will usually stop at a point where you can reach them with melee, although some parkouring might be needed, at least it's not as much of an RNG waiting game). Therefore, we might need something more than that.

 

I have a suggestion in my head, which comes from what I said in another topic about melee mobility, but I want to hear from you first.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Casardis

[Calayne]

DASHING ATTACKS

 

A dash has always been what I thought we'd get, or at least a faster roll, instead of the current clumsy one we have that is, to be honest, mediocre in most situations. You're often better off simply butt-sliding to an enemy in order to attack them, which can easily miss an enemy due to how it works. A Dash will be good, and a Dash Attack is even better.

 

The only thing I'd add to the idea is that  the player can press the attack button at ANY TIME during the dash, so that  they can measure the distance between them and the enemy much better. An issue we often have when using melee, especially if you're not using the clunky-feeling melee targeting system, is that you'll easily slide pass an enemy mid attacks, especially with combos that bring you forward (what's the point of completing the combo in this case if you can't even perform the last, powerful hits on the heavy unit or boss, during combo?). In that sense, being able to gauge the distance with the dashing attack will be better.

 

One can use it at the last second of the dash so it gives them even more distance to hit a far away enemy, or one can press it right from the start to perform a stunning stab 4 feet away from them, since their Skana still can't reach that distance with regular slashes.

 

JUMPING ATTACKS

 

All of my YES. This, among all the rest, should have been in melee 2.0 in the first place. It was requested as far away as in early open beta at least, and melee 2.0, which was to overhaul the melee system (implying core systems too), could have touched upon this, but for a whole update that was supposed to focus on it, none of that happened.

 

Ranting aside, I do have a few concerns. The Crouch + Attack combination seems a bit iffy, especially since we need crouch + attack in the air in order to perform coptering (which by now it's safe to assume it will never go away, just like butt-sliding). The difference is that the latter requires sprint to be held as well, but I think it can still create some confusion. In that sense, a separate button combination may be done, but I'm not sure which would be the best (maybe holding down the attack button, or pressing Reload?). I might be wrong in the end and crouch + attack might be the best option, since it makes sense.

 

One more thing. While jump attacks are great, there are times where certain "enemies" can't be reached with a regular jump. Therefore, despite the increased radius of attack from a jump attack, it won't be able to hit them (arc traps, highly placed cameras on Corpus tilesets, Lephantis, Raptor etc). This doesn't seem like it will help with bosses that have weakpoints either (Lephantis again, Ruk, Vay Hek phase 1) without tedious effort since the parkour system needs work, and those flying enemies just go around the place without much telegraphed pattern at times (in other games, they will usually stop at a point where you can reach them with melee, although some parkouring might be needed, at least it's not as much of an RNG waiting game). Therefore, we might need something more than that.

 

I have a suggestion in my head, which comes from what I said in another topic about melee mobility, but I want to hear from you first.

 

First off, thanks for your input, Cas! Really helps out, and I really need some refining on these ideas!

 

Haha, and wow to the quality of the feedback. It's really great!

 

Regarding the Dash attack, I think it's a really useful thing you just suggested, being able to time your attacks; I find that slide dashing has its fair share of problems, too, cause it can spin way out of control, especially if you're trying to do it at close range. It's really quite the hobble-legged thing, unfortunately. But I take it as a challenge. ;)  Now, we can dispense with the false pretence of challenges and just get right down to efficiency. 

 

You do raise a concern that is ever-present in most of our combos, though: Enemies are hard to hit with the full damnation of our combos, simply because they waddle right out of it one way or another. Doesn't seem the most calculated of strikes, unfortunately. At any rate, though, you're certainly right that we can also use this to travel short and long distances as well, even using it as a travelling implement! Surely, it won't be as insane as Zoren-copters, and if they allow that to be in there, I think having a more melee-oriented form of it would be massively welcome. But my favourite part of you suggesting the timing is that you can even initiate it within a short distance, but just out of your reach, which is highly useful, and extremely attractive an option, in my eyes.

 

 

Now, onto the Jump attack:

 

It's actually true that I failed to consider that the slide attack can also be done mid-air. :X  Haha, I admit that. But I think it still needs to be in a sliding position to execute it, and in some sense, I think this level of coordination is not that large of a hurdle to over-come, though I'd happily accept any suggestion to stream-line it. If possible, I'd like to avoid any frustration in using it. 

 

Hmm, but the other things you say, that is certainly right. There's an inherent difficulty in hitting flying enemies (Or really, just anything really tall), particularly if they're much higher than your jump, plus your weapon's reach. And Lephantis is also terribly massive, to the point where you can't even hit its head with your weapon. Still, this is a slight improvement over what we have, in the sense that we can, at least, hit drones, mutalist drones, and... Drones. And x-ray doors, too, I think. 

 

Doh. Well, on the other hand, I think the problem with Lephantis isn't easily overcome with just a melee overhaul, I feel. As a whole, if you want a melee-boss to be beatable using melee, then you have to allow some way for the player to reach these. These cases where enemies are so far out of reach, thankfully, are the exception, rather than the rule, though they are really annoying. In Lephantis' case, perhaps the boss should have been made in such a way where you can hack away at the legs, until it topples over, and melee players will be able to wail into their faces at full-tilt, before Lephantis recovers and tries to carry out his revenge. Would certainly reward the risk of dashing past the scythe of the Grineer head. 

 

As for the Raptor, perhaps they should allow the reflecting of missiles, rather than the overly-simple absorbtion of damage as it collides into your face and explodes anyway. Parrying at the right time should allow it to be reflected, perhaps?  

 

Generally speaking, though, I just feel that the design of these particular bosses are the one that require some tweaking/additions/makeover, to an extent. I wonder if you'd agree with me on this? :O

 

Fortunately, Ruk, while invincible, will still allow melee players to reach his shoulder when it's vulnerable if this move is made available. Lech Kril's back as well! 

 

I'd definitely like to hear what you have in mind, though, Cas! Your feedback is very valuable ^^

[Casardis]

If it requires sliding to perform the ground slam, that would be counter-productive. The sliding maneuver in-air gives you a slight momentum boost, and that will go against wanting to simply jump above an enemy and slam over them, or simply jump off a ledge right under to create an AoE knockdown attack. Therefore, it has to be separated from the sliding animation due to conflicting purposes. This is why I suggested the Reload button since it's completely unused when you're wielding your melee weapon.

 

For bosses, I completely agree. Surprisingly enough, the first two bosses are among the most well-designed in my opinion. Vor has everything, and whether you go melee or not, he can still be a fun boss (unless you go full powered-derp build, like having a 4 forma Boltor Prime, but that applies to almost everything). Jackal is the perfect example of having a dynamic combat where you need to accomplish a certain "task." In this case, the task for new players is to attack the legs. New bosses should take notes from that, and current bosses should be altered for that as well, even if it's by giving a certain move that allows melee to be do-able. Making Tyl Regor a melee-boss doesn't fix the issue present in pretty much the whole game, concerning melee.

 

Of course the Jackal concept may need a few polishing, especially if we allow such a thing for Lephantis, but the concept is there. It can be made that ONLY melee attacks can hack at Lephantis' legs to make it fall. For phase 1, each head should have an attack where they get "stuck" near ground level so that melee users, even if they would need to use jump attacks, can hit them.

 

For Raptor, the idea sounds good enough! That's if the parry system is actually overhauled to be skill-based and not RNG based. Then, the reflected missiles damage could be proportionate to your weapon's damage, unless it's lower than the missile damage itself (blocking with a unranked Skana will yield the missile's default damage, since it's higher than said Skana).

 

That aside, it still doesn't help with cameras that are placed too high, or certain arc traps positioning, and so on. If you don't mind, can I give a suggestion? My suggestion is going back to the "Flying Swallow" attack which I often referred to when giving feedback on melee mobility. It will give an alternative to your jump attack, meaning the ideal would be to have both in-game and being able to use them together. I will do some sketches to illustrate it better, and will post it here when I finish them, since I might be a bit busy all day.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Casardis

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

If only Block were also Aim and if only we could just Throw all our weapons while Blockaiming, not just the Glaive and Kestrel....

[Calayne]

If it requires sliding to perform the ground slam, that would be counter-productive. The sliding maneuver in-air gives you a slight momentum boost, and that will go against wanting to simply jump above an enemy and slam over them, or simply jump off a ledge right under to create an AoE knockdown attack. Therefore, it has to be separated from the sliding animation due to conflicting purposes. This is why I suggested the Reload button since it's completely unused when you're wielding your melee weapon.

 

For bosses, I completely agree. Surprisingly enough, the first two bosses are among the most well-designed in my opinion. Vor has everything, and whether you go melee or not, he can still be a fun boss (unless you go full powered-derp build, like having a 4 forma Boltor Prime, but that applies to almost everything). Jackal is the perfect example of having a dynamic combat where you need to accomplish a certain "task." In this case, the task for new players is to attack the legs. New bosses should take notes from that, and current bosses should be altered for that as well, even if it's by giving a certain move that allows melee to be do-able. Making Tyl Regor a melee-boss doesn't fix the issue present in pretty much the whole game, concerning melee.

 

Of course the Jackal concept may need a few polishing, especially if we allow such a thing for Lephantis, but the concept is there. It can be made that ONLY melee attacks can hack at Lephantis' legs to make it fall. For phase 1, each head should have an attack where they get "stuck" near ground level so that melee users, even if they would need to use jump attacks, can hit them.

 

For Raptor, the idea sounds good enough! That's if the parry system is actually overhauled to be skill-based and not RNG based. Then, the reflected missiles damage could be proportionate to your weapon's damage, unless it's lower than the missile damage itself (blocking with a unranked Skana will yield the missile's default damage, since it's higher than said Skana).

 

That aside, it still doesn't help with cameras that are placed too high, or certain arc traps positioning, and so on. If you don't mind, can I give a suggestion? My suggestion is going back to the "Flying Swallow" attack which I often referred to when giving feedback on melee mobility. It will give an alternative to your jump attack, meaning the ideal would be to have both in-game and being able to use them together. I will do some sketches to illustrate it better, and will post it here when I finish them, since I might be a bit busy all day.

 

 

Haha, oops, I think I've poorly sent across my message, regarding flying slide attacks! What I meant was, unless you're sliding, you cannot do sliding attacks! And in that case, when you're not in the sliding position, you can hold the crouch button and attack to execute a ground slam! So, you need some coordination to decide whether you want to do a ground slam or a slide attack, especially if you want to do a ground slam after a slide attack, which some people can do.

 

Alternatively, though, perhaps we could hold block and attack? A simultaneous tap of both while mid-air could execute a ground slam! I'm not too sure which would be better, but I imagine that, yes, if the buttons are slightly different from the slide attack, that would be more convenient!

 

As for the bosses are parrying, you know my stance on skill-based mechanics.  ;)   I really wished that it were more skill-based, far more precise, rather than the RNG-based system that we have now, which, honestly, I have no idea what the percentages for successful parries are. At any rate, though, RNG parrying really did not live up to the initial hype it produce! And certainly was not the promise which they had made! Thankfully, blocking and the stances (To an extent) were quite well executed, and is an improvement without a doubt. 

 

Hmm, though, for Raptor, I think the key point of the missiles being reflected is that Raptor will drop down, after being blown out of the sky, so it would likely just be Raptor's missile damage (With, perhaps, a little bonus for reflecting it?), but it grounds him for a while, making him far more vulnerable, and relying on his tiny machine gun as you close the distance. And for a while, you will hack away at his face until he flies up once more.

 

You're definitely right about the camera and arc-trap positioning, though! Those things are super annoying. 

 

Your Flying Swallow would definitely be a potential solution, though! :O  I eagerly await your response in this matter ^^  Haha, I've just seen some videos of Ninja Gaiden's Flying Swallow. It looks awesome!

[Calayne]

If only Block were also Aim and if only we could just Throw all our weapons while Blockaiming, not just the Glaive and Kestrel....

 

Haha, I like the idea of ranged attacks, but maybe not throwing our weapon ;)  Perhaps there'll be a mod one day that will let you shoot projectiles from your weapon while channelling? It was a pretty popular idea a while back, I think!

 

Though, it would be pretty cool to see thrown melee weapon (That's not the glaive or kestrel) animations! Maybe one day, we'll get throwing spears?

[Alad_VI]

Good ideas. +1

Also good humor. +lOl (101 except lol... I'M SO FUNNY HERDY HERDY HAR HAR)