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Slash And Toxic Are Bad Mechanics


(PSN)DesecratedFlame
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I like the mechanic of regening shield with non-regening health and limited health pick-ups.  I would like to see more shooters return to this as opposed to hiding behind cover until the red jams slides off your screen.  However, this system is pointless when it is subverted by things such as Toxic or Slash. There is no real skill involved with it, as it stands.

 

AT THE VERY LEAST, I would like to see status bars added.  That way when you are exposed to something like toxic, you get a bar that pops up and when it fills completely, you are afflected with the status ailment. That way you have a warning and time to get the hell out of the way. It makes the system less numbers-based, more skill-based, less cheap, and just more fun in general.

 

EDIT: I am talking about a bar that takes a few seconds to fill, not 10 seconds+ without mods as some people seem to think. It makes the status effects more fair but doesn't render them harmless either.

Edited by (PS4)DesecratedFlame
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not skill based? how bout you have the skill to kill the toxic things before they even got to you, works fine for me.

 

want to avoid slash, then thin out the heard of enemies by using cover/abilities. sure this wont stop it all but it will lessen the affects to the point where the health orbs can counteract it.

 

 

there are mods to counteract this also. if you don't want to take them then play with someone that runs Regeneration.

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For Toxin, I agree there should be "buffer" meter that depletes before the toxin seeps through to your health. That way, toxin resistance mods would be more helpful, or they could get reworked/new ones could be made to increase your buffer (time of exposure) before damage is taken. That would actually be a legitimate mod...

 

As for slash, I'm not so sure that a buffer meter makes as much sense... if you're bleeding, you're bleeding. However, maybe a button mash mechanic could halt the bleeding but slow down your character or occupy their hands? The necessary button mashing would be very short and would end the bleed early but would be an option that would put you out of combat for a little while, making you more vulnerable. Again, there would also be opportunity for new mods to help this "stop the bleeding" mechanic.

 

Plus this way, toxin/bleed effects could be made to be more lethal since they would have stuff you could do to counter it. In my opinion, needing a "Air Filtration System" mod for an extremely high level Infested mission would be not only fitting but unique.

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not skill based? how bout you have the skill to kill the toxic things before they even got to you, works fine for me.

Priority targets? Jee, I guess we don't have those yet. 

Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Napalms, Shield Ospreys, Hellions, Eviscerators, Ancients of all flavours, Corpus Techs, Fusion Moas and Fusion Drones, Tenno Spectres in Rail missions, hell might as well add Capure Targets, Seekers, and Elite Crewman to the list, Fire/Blitz/Shock/Toxin Eximi too.

This entire game sums challenge as a priority sort of things to kill. It needs to something different.

 

Edited by LukeAura
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not skill based? how bout you have the skill to kill the toxic things before they even got to you, works fine for me.

 

want to avoid slash, then thin out the heard of enemies by using cover/abilities. sure this wont stop it all but it will lessen the affects to the point where the health orbs can counteract it.

 

 

there are mods to counteract this also. if you don't want to take them then play with someone that runs Regeneration.

I've seen this argument plenty of times before, but the thing that I dislike about it most is that it doesn't tackle the issue at hand. It doesn't add to the conversation on the topic itself, it's just a thinly-veiled ad-hominem towards the OP for suggesting such a thing.

Even if you're killing the enemies that proc toxic and slash before they have a chance to affect you, this is, at best, ignoring the problem - it doesn't offer a solution. The issue remains that the status effects aren't particularly conducive to engaging or fun gameplay for some.

 

As for my reaction to the topic, I'd love to see the status system at the very least refurbished with better HUD elements indicating status effects and a way to counteract afflictions. Right now, it's very number-based, as you said, and more an annoyance to deal with than an obstacle that rewards skill when overcome. I mean, you either have health orbs, rejuvenation, or health restores to combat these, which seems a pretty patchy way to deal with constant health damage that can't always be avoided. Having a warframe like Trinity is very situational.

 

One thing I like about the idea behind Grineer Latchers is that while you're pretty much gonna get one stuck on your nasty parts if you see a Seeker rolling one out, pressing 'f' to roll will disable the timed explosion. Of course, this small mechanic is pretty bare-bones and the implementation for sure needs work, but I'd like to see a similar analogy in regards to status afflictions.

Edited by Vastaren
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I've been advocating a Dark Souls inspired proc system for a while, now. +1. 

That could actually be nice...

 

 

Priority targets? Jee, I guess we don't have those yet. 

Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Napalms, Shield Ospreys, Hellions, Eviscerators, Ancients of all flavours, Corpus Techs, Fusion Moas and Fusion Drones, Tenno Spectres in Rail missions, hell might as well add Capure Targets, Seekers, and Elite Crewman to the list, Fire/Blitz/Shock/Toxin Eximi too.

This entire game sums challenge as a priority sort of things to kill. It needs to something different.

 

^This. So much. Half of the enemies are "high priority" now... So yeah, not a valid argument.

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The constant appearance of these threads tells me there's plenty of skill involved, and plenty of players lack it.  The skill, of course, is properly identifying the threats you'll face in mission and formulating a plan to deal with it.  Chances are, you are going to take health damage.  You'll need a plan to deal with it.  Gear, mods, abilities - all of these offer ways to compensate for taking health damage.  If you go into a mission without a plan for what to do if and when you get slashed or poisoned, it's a failure on your part. 

 

It's a very basic skill you need in every RPG ever made.  You don't go wandering into the forest of the basilisk without a way of preventing or recovering from petrification, you don't fight the troll without a way to counter it's regeneration.  You go wandering into a mission with 1000 shields and 200 health and no way to restore your health in a pinch - while knowing you're very likely to end up in one - that's a simple failure to plan.

 

If you must make these threads, please at least acknowledge that skill is involved, but you want your twitch skills to be able to save you when your loadout doesn't.  Then we can at least have an honest conversation.

Edited by Phatose
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The constant appearance of these threads tells me there's plenty of skill involved, and plenty of players lack it.  The skill, of course, is properly identifying the threats you'll face in mission and formulating a plan to deal with it.  Chances are, you are going to take health damage.  You'll need a plan to deal with it.  Gear, mods, abilities - all of these offer ways to compensate for taking health damage.  If you go into a mission without a plan for what to do if and when you get slashed or poisoned, it's a failure on your part. 

Gear - was actually used much more and accepted more in their old implementation when they were both quick and cheap and you didn't have to wait around for radial pulses to go off. Still have about 20 of the old health restores in my inventory in case of extreme emergencies. 

Mods - So....lifestrike? Equilibrium? Mods gated behind Infested with all their toxic units?

Abilities - Nuke from orbit playstyles people want to discourage. 

Skill should not entail avoiding everything for ever entirely. We should be encouraged to deal with and engage our enemies in unique and interesting ways, direct health damage negates that idea. 

 

Edited by LukeAura
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Toxic is fine as-is. The enemies that have Toxic are easy to spot, and thus you can take precautions against them (aside from the occasional Eximus behind a wall that fucks you up with its aura).

 

Slash, however, is annoying, because it's completely random and almost any enemy can proc it on you. It's because of Slash that I have to run Equilibrium on almost all of my Frames.

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You don't have to wait for pulses to go off.  If you're truly desperate, pop 4 of em at once.

Lifestrike, Equilibrium, the regeneration aura.

Oberon, Trinity, and Nekros all have direct healing abilities, Ash, Excalbur, Nyx, Vauban, Rhino - these all have disabling abilities.

 

Skill shouldn't entail avoiding everything forever, no.  And I don't have to, so I know that's not the case.

 

But let's not pretend like removing these abilities actually increases skill at all.  It doesn't.  The game becomes "Just stack shields 100% of the time".  That's involves even less skill then compensating for bleeds and toxins.

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The constant appearance of these threads tells me there's plenty of skill involved, and plenty of players lack it. 

I don't understand, where did that come from?

 

I agree with you on the fact that these effects can be dealt with, and mitigated to some extent, but using the word 'skill' as a crutch on the argument to imply that the OP (and certain others) lacks it, again, doesn't really contribute to the discussion about the system of direct health damage. As I said, there are mods, gear, abilities to mitigate direct health damage, and I'm not advocating removing them entirely, just suggesting a way in which direct health damage can be counteracted rather than necessarily dealt with as it happens. Does this change the fact that the mechanic ought to be revised? I honestly don't think so, direct health damage shouldn't be an absolute inevitability in my opinion.

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You don't have to wait for pulses to go off.  If you're truly desperate, pop 4 of em at once.

Lifestrike, Equilibrium, the regeneration aura.

Oberon, Trinity, and Nekros all have direct healing abilities, Ash, Excalbur, Nyx, Vauban, Rhino - these all have disabling abilities.

 

Skill shouldn't entail avoiding everything forever, no.  And I don't have to, so I know that's not the case.

 

But let's not pretend like removing these abilities actually increases skill at all.  It doesn't.  The game becomes "Just stack shields 100% of the time".  That's involves even less skill then compensating for bleeds and toxins.

Manipulate the system, spending more for what one should do naturally. No one should have to use multiple heal restores just to feel like they're being healed at a decent pace.

Regeneration aura available at random which may still be gated behind the direct damage heavy infested like the other two, you haven't actually addressed the problem here at all. rpgs always gives you the tools to combat the enemy before you fight it or at least hints where you might want to go first to find the tools or tells you what those tools are. Warframe doesn't guarantee tools, knowledge of tools, actively locks those tools behind the enemies they counter, and doesn't even guarantee you'll need them. Getting hit by direct damage is entirely random(Bleed), or because the enemy attacked from a position you couldn't watch at the time.

3 frames out of them all can heal direct health damage, and only Rhino/Ash/Loki can avoided either being targetted or hurt with these effects, and again, remaining permanently under your CC or form of protection is a bad attitude to encourage in players. 

And if the skill is all in the preparation for combating these effects that is boring, the challenge becomes "how do I remove the challenge". Warframe may have rpg elements but if there is nothing that one can do actively under their own skill in mission to reliably heal, counter, or even be warned about these effects then there is most certainly a problem with them. 

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not skill based? how bout you have the skill to kill the toxic things before they even got to you, works fine for me.

 

want to avoid slash, then thin out the heard of enemies by using cover/abilities. sure this wont stop it all but it will lessen the affects to the point where the health orbs can counteract it.

 

 

there are mods to counteract this also. if you don't want to take them then play with someone that runs Regeneration.

I have had enemies spawn right behind me, literally.  I have turned around in a small room in time to see them just pop in.

 

For Toxin, I agree there should be "buffer" meter that depletes before the toxin seeps through to your health. That way, toxin resistance mods would be more helpful, or they could get reworked/new ones could be made to increase your buffer (time of exposure) before damage is taken. That would actually be a legitimate mod...

 

As for slash, I'm not so sure that a buffer meter makes as much sense... if you're bleeding, you're bleeding. However, maybe a button mash mechanic could halt the bleeding but slow down your character or occupy their hands? The necessary button mashing would be very short and would end the bleed early but would be an option that would put you out of combat for a little while, making you more vulnerable. Again, there would also be opportunity for new mods to help this "stop the bleeding" mechanic.

 

Plus this way, toxin/bleed effects could be made to be more lethal since they would have stuff you could do to counter it. In my opinion, needing a "Air Filtration System" mod for an extremely high level Infested mission would be not only fitting but unique.

A slash meter makes just as much sense.  A small scratch on your finger bleeds but not enought o endager your life. Bleeding building up to dangerous levels makes as much sense as poison doing the same.

 

But let's not pretend like removing these abilities actually increases skill at all.  It doesn't.  The game becomes "Just stack shields 100% of the time".  That's involves even less skill then compensating for bleeds and toxins.

1. That is the way it should be.  Shields are there for a reason.

2. High end enemies will tear through your shields in seconds anyway.

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I don't understand, where did that come from?

 

I agree with you on the fact that these effects can be dealt with, and mitigated to some extent, but using the word 'skill' as a crutch on the argument to imply that the OP (and certain others) lacks it, again, doesn't really contribute to the discussion about the system of direct health damage. As I said, there are mods, gear, abilities to mitigate direct health damage, and I'm not advocating removing them entirely, just suggesting a way in which direct health damage can be counteracted rather than necessarily dealt with as it happens. Does this change the fact that the mechanic ought to be revised? I honestly don't think so, direct health damage shouldn't be an absolute inevitability in my opinion.

 

You're not the topic creator, and that was where my comments were addressed.  Go re-read the OP.  It came from the OP saying "There is no real skill involved with it, as it stands."  Then re-read my post, particularly the last line. 

 

Just to make it clear, I'm actually in favor of action based avoidance measures.  But I find the need to make "No skill" claims intellectual dishonest, and it's become so common on these boards that it bugs me.

 

 

1. That is the way it should be.  Shields are there for a reason.

2. High end enemies will tear through your shields in seconds anyway.

 

Back in D&D, my fighter wore armor.  That armor was there for a reason.  But were I to go complain to TSR that my armor wasn't protecting me from a basilisk's gaze, or a dragon's fire, or a rust monsters touch, I'd be quite reasonably laughed at.  Because "There for a reason" is not the same as "The one true solution to every problem". 

 

"Shields defend against everything, and you never have to consider anything else" destroys build diversity, and game diversity, and is a bad idea. 

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You're not the topic creator, and that was where my comments were addressed.  Go re-read the OP.  It came from the OP saying "There is no real skill involved with it, as it stands."  Then re-read my post, particularly the last line. 

 

Just to make it clear, I'm actually in favor of action based avoidance measures.  But I find the need to make "No skill" claims intellectual dishonest, and it's become so common on these boards that it bugs me.

 

Back in D&D, my fighter wore armor.  That armor was there for a reason.  But were I to go complain to TSR that my armor wasn't protecting me from a basilisk's gaze, or a dragon's fire, or a rust monsters touch, I'd be quite reasonably laughed at.  Because "There for a reason" is not the same as "The one true solution to every problem". 

 

"Shields defend against everything, and you never have to consider anything else" destroys build diversity, and game diversity, and is a bad idea. 

It is not dishonest in the least. Say a Toxic Ancient spawns right on top of you, what is the "skill" based way to avoid the toxic effect?  There isn't one. With a build up meter you would have a few seconds to react and get away  (i.e. giving you a skill based option for dealing with the status ailment).

 

If you want to compare it to other RPGs then where is my ribbon (Syandana?) that I can equip on all characters to protect me from all status ailements? Where are my cheap antidotes, bought with in game credits and in bulk?  Where are my elixirs that cure all status ailments and restore me to full health instantly?

 

If anything it opens up more build diversity.  Most people max out redirection anyway, and by not letting status ailments instantly bypass shields, people might not rely so heavily on HP boosting mods. As such, there would be one less "required" mod on every build so people could use that freed up mod slot/energy in more diverse and creative ways.

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"Shields defend against everything, and you never have to consider anything else" destroys build diversity, and game diversity, and is a bad idea. 

Also forgot to mention:

 

I am not saying that the status ailments would not attack health directly.  I am saying there would need to be a build up before the statuses were applied.  It doesn't stop the need for higher health, but it offers a skill based counter to them if you are skilled enough.

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As much as the noted solution sounds nice... there's somewhat of a glaring issue with it, you'll basically never be proc'd again or proc'd eventually and die anyway.  Most procs occur vary scarcely so if the bar drains at a modest speed it'll never fill.  If it drains slowly you'll still just die via random gunfire because reasons.  Finding the right balance for the drain speed on said bar would be nigh impossible due to the unpredictable nature of said physical proc type.

 

To put it bluntly, the issue with Slash is not that it ignores shielding (this is a very good thing as you know) the problem with that damage type is that it is literally randomized for the most part.  There are almost no enemies that cause a reliably predictable Slash proc, it's just something that randomly occurs on random bullets.  Everyone messes up and gets hit eventually (well, some just stand in the open) and you never know which random bullet is going to end up suddenly spelling doom.  Though the solution there would require a big-ish rework to all of the enemy factions... so yeah.

 

Toxin, while reliable, is just absurdly easy to avoid.  Currently (I can't say for Mutalist Osprey having not encountered them) you only get Toxin procs at your own fault.  They really don't need changed at all from anything I've seen since if you got a Toxin proc you deserved the Toxin proc.

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not skill based? how bout you have the skill to kill the toxic things before they even got to you, works fine for me.

 

want to avoid slash, then thin out the heard of enemies by using cover/abilities. sure this wont stop it all but it will lessen the affects to the point where the health orbs can counteract it.

 

 

there are mods to counteract this also. if you don't want to take them then play with someone that runs Regeneration.

Actually, that's not a half bad Idea there mr. challenge. There are already mods, why not have them affect the "status bar" that OP is talking about? Players require skill to get out in time before their proc bar fills, and mods are there if you wish to specialize in toxic resistance!

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To sum up this thread...

1. Come in with a healing frame in your team.

 

2. Stop focusing on your shield and realize you can help your health bar.

 

3. Get good.

Also, I never find an issue with these types of enemies because I typically use frames with an AoE ability. It pretty much takes care of the poisonous enemies because they lack health themselves.

Edited by WickedEuphoria
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As much as the noted solution sounds nice... there's somewhat of a glaring issue with it, you'll basically never be proc'd again or proc'd eventually and die anyway.  Most procs occur vary scarcely so if the bar drains at a modest speed it'll never fill.  If it drains slowly you'll still just die via random gunfire because reasons.  Finding the right balance for the drain speed on said bar would be nigh impossible due to the unpredictable nature of said physical proc type.

 

To put it bluntly, the issue with Slash is not that it ignores shielding (this is a very good thing as you know) the problem with that damage type is that it is literally randomized for the most part.  There are almost no enemies that cause a reliably predictable Slash proc, it's just something that randomly occurs on random bullets.  Everyone messes up and gets hit eventually (well, some just stand in the open) and you never know which random bullet is going to end up suddenly spelling doom.  Though the solution there would require a big-ish rework to all of the enemy factions... so yeah..

Wrong. One toxic ancient is not going to surprise you and toxic you unless you are pinned in.  That is a good thing. Two toxic ancients would have the effect stack and fill quicker. That plus toxic build up reduction mods would lead to more diversity.

 

It would also allow for enemies that proc slash on a more consistent basis because it could be balanced against the player's ability to avoid the status.

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To sum up this thread...

1. Come in with a healing frame in your team.

 

2. Stop focusing on your shield and realize you can help your health bar.

 

3. Get good.

Also, I never find an issue with these types of enemies because I typically use frames with an AoE ability. It pretty much takes care of the poisonous enemies because they lack health themselves.

1. Every team needs a healer is something Warframe has been good at avoiding, solo players and anything less than a full team are now hindered by this. 

2. Doesn't solve the problem OP is trying to address, avoiding procs isn't skill full because they are random. 

3. Really says nothing without a definition of good that the rest of your post doesn't already cover.

4. Nuke from orbit attitude is a bad one to instil in players.  

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