Loki Ability Tweaking (Radial Disarm And Decoy)

[Renegade343]

Hello all, 

 

This thread will detail two suggestions for tweaking Loki's powers to make it useful, or award tactical use of powers. The content is below: 

 

The first suggestion is to make Loki's Decoy have 100% of its health/shields from the owner (e.g.: Loki with 200 health and shields casts Decoy. The Decoy will now have 200 health and shields), and make the Decoy copy what the Loki who casted it be the same appearance as said Loki, with said Loki's weapons (e.g.: Loki casts Decoy, and has a Karak, Lex and Scindo on him. The Decoy will now take on the appearance of said Loki, and will also have a Karak, Lex and Scindo on itself).

 

The Decoy will not change weapons, but will wield the weapon that the Loki was using before he casted the Decoy. The Decoy will pretend to aim and shoot at targeted enemies/players, as well as having reload times, to make it more realistic, but it will not move from its initial spot. Finally, Loki (and all allies) will be able to see the Decoy on the minimap, and Loki can spawn a maximum of three Decoys, emulating a full squad to truly confuse and trick enemies. With this, I hope to make Loki's Decoy more convincing, actually tricking players and enemies alike. 

 

An alternate way is to make the current Decoy image be shown for the Loki and his allies, but be the same as the Loki for enemies, meaning it can actually fool enemies (and maybe enemy players) into attacking it, which can give the Loki an edge in combat (from (PS4)Bobtm0)

 

The second suggestion is to rework Loki's Radial Disarm so that enemies will wield different melee weapons based on the enemy. When Loki casts Radial Disarm, all enemies within range will be stunned for 1.0s and pull out their melee weapons. Now this is the catch. The enemies will pull out melee weapons that is used by their specific faction. The list for this is below: 

 

- All Light and Medium Grineer that uses guns will pull out a single Cleaver and start hacking at the player when within range (Shield Lancers still have their shields to knock down players). 

 

- All Heavy Grineer that uses guns will put out a Machete and attempt to lop off the player's limbs when within range. 

 

- All Grineer Eximi that uses guns will put out Dual Cleavers and start slicing and dicing at the player when within range. 

 

- All Corpus Crewman that uses guns will put out a Prova to whack the player when within range. 

 

- All Corpus Crewman body-type Eximi (requires EDIT 9 to be implemented as well for maximum effectiveness), with the exception of the Blitz Eximi (see EDIT 9), will pull out a Serro (can be seen equipped on the back of said Eximi while fighting them) and start slashing at the player within range (since the Serro flavour texts hints at rebels in Sedna, the Serro is researched at the Energy Lab and most of Sedna is controlled by the Corpus, it can be inferred that the Serro is a Corpus tool repurposed into a weapon). 

 

- Blitz Eximi will use a Lecta to whip at the player when within range. 

 

- All MOAs will still have their kicks (because we need some humour in the game). 

 

- All Infested will be stunned, take a bit of damage, and lose their abilities for 10s (cannot be increased with any mods) and must wait until the 10s are up before they can use their abilities again.

 

For all Grineer and Corpus enemies that are affected by Radial Disarm, the enemies will have a movement speed boost (+15%) and attack damage boost (+10%) (akin to a latch ditch charge). The enemies will also run towards the nearest player, or the Loki who cast the Radial Disarm, so players must be aware of their surroundings. 

 

To compensate for this increase in movement speed and attack damage boost, Loki's Radial Disarm will permanently deactivate all auras from the Eximi, meaning the Eximi's allies will not be buffed [i.e. no more aura when Radial Disarm is cast]. Personal Eximi buffs still apply to the Eximi. 

 

With these two suggestions, I hope to make players who are playing with Loki actually think a bit more about his/her surroundings, and use Loki's powers to a more effective degree. 

 

Please take the time to read this thread, and give constructive feedback and criticism. 

 

Renegade343

 

To see my other threads, please go to my profile.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Renegade343

[shut]

Decoy already uses the health/shields mechanic that you mentioned. It is an exact replica of the user's stats; putting Redirection on your Frame will put Redirection on your decoy as well.

I'd much rather make Decoy invulnerable to all damage (remove the hitbox entirely), and make it so that enemy bullets that fly through have "friendly fire" enabled, so they can accidentally shoot their buddies on the other side for maximum mayhem. Decrease the duration by a lot to compensate for the invulnerability, of course.

 

 

As for Radial Disarm... I'm liking this. The fancy weapons on every enemy isn't exactly necessary (it would be a lot of work for something that doesn't affect gameplay all too much), but I'm all for disabling Eximus units and making it actually do something against Infested.

Leaving the shields on Shield Lancers is a bit of a nerf to the ability, but it does make sense (and, as a Loki player, I support it). You can't exactly make a metal riot shield "malfunction".

 

The +15% speed boost and attack boost isn't really necessary, IMO. By the time you're fighting enemies that Disarm could possibly be "overpowered" against, enemies will be one-shotting you with melee anyway, which makes them plenty dangerous enough. XD

Edited July 22, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Renegade343]

Decoy already uses the health/shields mechanic that you mentioned. It is an exact replica of the user's stats; putting Redirection on your Frame will put Redirection on your decoy as well.

They do? I swear the health/shields never changes (but then again, that Decoy does not look convincing as heck, so why not include that in as well just in case?).

 

The +15% speed boost and attack boost isn't really necessary, IMO. By the time you're fighting enemies that Disarm could possibly be "overpowered" against, enemies will be one-shotting you with melee anyway, which makes them plenty dangerous enough. XD

Well, at least the enemies are trying to catch up to you (no ranged abilities), and since a Loki is quite fast, so a bit of a buff when the enemies are disarmed would be alright (after all, if they do actually catch up to you even without Radial Disarm, then there may (emphasis on 'may') be something wrong with your gameplay plan).

Edited July 22, 2014 by Renegade343

[Renegade343]

I'd much rather make Decoy invulnerable to all damage (remove the hitbox entirely), and make it so that enemy bullets that fly through have "friendly fire" enabled, so they can accidentally shoot their buddies on the other side for maximum mayhem. Decrease the duration by a lot to compensate for the invulnerability, of course.

Maybe, although I think it may cross a bit into the Mirage side.

[shut]

Well, at least the enemies are trying to catch up to you (no ranged abilities), and since a Loki is quite fast, so a bit of a buff when the enemies are disarmed would be alright (after all, if they do actually catch up to you even without Radial Disarm, then there may (emphasis on 'may') be something wrong with your gameplay plan).

 

Any Loki player that can carry their own weight should be able to outrun melee enemies no matter how fast they are.

My concern is for slower teammates (Frost) and defendable objects like Cryopods that might suffer excessively if the Loki doesn't kill the mobs quickly enough. XD

 

 

Maybe, although I think it may cross a bit into the Mirage side.

 

I guess that's true. I've been making that suggestion for Loki for ages now, but now that Illusionframe is released, it seems less likely than ever that Illusion Decoy will actually be implemented. XD

 

In any case, I'd like to see the Decoy given something that'll allow it to scale decently against ranged enemies in later levels (since you can't keep every mob in the map disarmed all the time). Perhaps the ability to place multiple Decoys (pressing 1 while aiming at a decoy will despawn it), so they all split the pain and don't die as quickly.

Edited July 22, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Renegade343]

Any Loki player that can carry their own weight should be able to outrun melee enemies no matter how fast they are.

Do not be so sure on that. There are a few Loki players I played with that somehow died from melee enemies. 

 

My concern is for slower teammates (Frost) and defendable objects like Cryopods that might suffer excessively if the Loki doesn't kill the mobs quickly enough. XD

Well, I was first proposing for a +50% movement speed and attack damage increase, but I think +15% for both stats would be a good balance. Based on my own calculations on enemy speeds, I think even slow Warframes would outpace it. 

 

And after all, they do get stunned for one second, so at least there is some time to dish out the damage. 

 

In any case, I'd like to see the Decoy given something that'll allow it to scale decently against ranged enemies in later levels (since you can't keep every mob in the map disarmed all the time). Perhaps the ability to place multiple Decoys (pressing 1 while aiming at a decoy will despawn it), so they all split the pain and don't die as quickly.

Maybe, but we have to consider about actual misuse (say the Loki just spams Decoy and blocks all allies' view). How about a maximum of three, then Loki could emulate a squad for actual tricking?

[shut]

Maybe, but we have to consider about actual misuse (say the Loki just spams Decoy and blocks all allies' view). How about a maximum of three, then Loki could emulate a squad for actual tricking?

 

I can live with that. xD

[Renegade343]

Updated based on member feedback. 

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

While changing out Decoy's weapons to match the Loki's sounds interesting, I'm not wholly down with that suggestion;  Decoy works how it works because the Lato makes noise and said Decoy simply spams the Lato continually.  If I happen to, y'know, use a loadout like Dread + Kunai... I think you get the picture.  It's a nice sounding yet completely irrelevant change that serves no purpose outside of potentially breaking an already outstanding 1.

 

Now this second issue I have with the changes may be personal, but I'd hate to see it change from its current hologram state to looking like a Loki clone.  This is due to personal visibility, when using the Decoy at very long ranges or in tight areas it can become tough to keep perfect track of.  But, being as bright as it currently is as well as very distinct looking it's easy to at-a-glance tell if its still up with just a quick look.

 

So a huge thumbs down on weapon/appearance changes on the Decoy from me.  Also, the Decoy already copies Loki's HP and Shielding to my knowledge so congrats on already having one of your seemingly endless suggestions be true.  Also, also, I'm moderately certain that Decoy is already visible on the mini-map.

 

Inversely though, I'm totally for triple-Decoy allotment as well as being mostly on board with your Radial Disarm changes.  They don't need the increase in damage, scaling handles that one more than well enough but the increase in speed is borderline necessary.  As it stands even the slowest of frames can kite them without chance of failure barring actual user failure to kite them.

[Renegade343]

While changing out Decoy's weapons to match the Loki's sounds interesting, I'm not wholly down with that suggestion;  Decoy works how it works because the Lato makes noise and said Decoy simply spams the Lato continually.  If I happen to, y'know, use a loadout like Dread + Kunai... I think you get the picture.  It's a nice sounding yet completely irrelevant change that serves no purpose outside of potentially breaking an already outstanding 1.

 

Now this second issue I have with the changes may be personal, but I'd hate to see it change from its current hologram state to looking like a Loki clone.  This is due to personal visibility, when using the Decoy at very long ranges or in tight areas it can become tough to keep perfect track of.  But, being as bright as it currently is as well as very distinct looking it's easy to at-a-glance tell if its still up with just a quick look.

How about this: 

 

We make it look like a Loki Spectre-current Decoy blend, so that it can have a balance of both being easy to spot by the caster while being able to potentially fool enemies or inattentive players (with the upcoming PvP, I think a small visual change in Loki would be alright). Then, at least certain loadouts will not actually befuddle players. 

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

How about this: 

 

We make it look like a Loki Spectre-current Decoy blend, so that it can have a balance of both being easy to spot by the caster while being able to potentially fool enemies or inattentive players (with the upcoming PvP, I think a small visual change in Loki would be alright). Then, at least certain loadouts will not actually befuddle players. 

 

I actually hate the way Specters look (like before, personal thing) so I'm still not cool with that.  The current Decoy is just a super high visibility landmark and I'd hate to lose that trait.  Also anyone fooled by any stationary Decoy is not going to be a threat warranting the use of a Decoy to begin with, however the other players will likely be fully capable of hearing its shot sounds so that could be utilized to one's advantage.

 

Now, mind you were there a way for DE to code it so allies of Loki and he himself see his Decoys as the current form, but foes see them as near-identical duplicates it'd be a sensible change in my mind.  I'd still laugh hard at anyone falling for such a clearly obvious tactic mind you, but it would get the inattentive players.

Edited July 22, 2014 by (PS4)Bobtm0

[Renegade343]

Now, mind you were there a way for DE to code it so allies Loki and he himself see his Decoys as the current form, but foes see them as near-identical duplicates it'd be a sensible change in my mind.  I'd still laugh hard at anyone falling for such a clearly obvious tactic mind you, but it would get the inattentive players.

Why not? It should be quite easy to code (and after all, it is meant to be a Decoy, so is it not the intended job to try and fool someone): 

 

If(Loki_caster || Loki_allies)

{show_current_Loki_Decoy;}

else

{show_Loki_Loadout_Appearance;}

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Why not? It should be quite easy to code (and after all, it is meant to be a Decoy, so is it not the intended job to try and fool someone): 

 

If(Loki_caster || Loki_allies)

{show_current_Loki_Decoy;}

else

{show_Loki_Loadout_Appearance;}

 

While we agree, you've kind of gone done and irked me...

A snippet of proper looking code =/= proper code however.  Mind you I'm fully down with said suggestion, but this very game suffers constant host client disparity as it is all the time.  Expecting it to fully handle even a simple distinguishing visual change with four lines of code and be wholly working is a massive and likely insulting understatement of the amount of work that potentially would need to be done to make said change work.

 

Coding is a lot more difficult than you seem to believe.

[Renegade343]

While we agree, you've kind of gone done and irked me...

A snippet of proper looking code =/= proper code however.  Mind you I'm fully down with said suggestion, but this very game suffers constant host client disparity as it is all the time.  Expecting it to fully handle even a simple distinguishing visual change with four lines of code and be wholly working is a massive and likely insulting understatement of the amount of work that potentially would need to be done to make said change work.

 

Coding is a lot more difficult than you seem to believe.

I know, but that is pseudo code to show the concept (and that in particular is the easiest way to show it [and least for C++]). 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Renegade343

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

I know, but that is pseudo code to show the concept (and that in particular is the easiest way to show it [and least for C++]). 

 

I get why you did it, but that doesn't mean I won't continue seeing it as a highly insulting thing.  It makes it seem like the dev teams' jobs are immensely simple.  It's misleading to people who don't know things about coding in a game engine and dismissive of the amount of work needed to make things function in a game engine.

 

Just to make sure though;  I've got nothing against you personally, you actually seem like an awesome dude and you've got a lot of very gnarly ideas.  I just think you really overstep your boundaries with those kinds of coding snippets.

[Renegade343]

Just to make sure though;  I've got nothing against you personally, you actually seem like an awesome dude and you've got a lot of very gnarly ideas.  I just think you really overstep your boundaries with those kinds of coding snippets.

I say things which I do not mean sometimes (which happens to be quite the habit when I started to use white lies to cover up a particularly nasty incident involving disconnected cameras, a malfunctioning vision control mixer and a hidden switch that happened to switch off when the fuse was blown). 

[atpbx1]

Loki decoy should carry the same weapons as Loki, and also fire live rounds (but not move).

[fatpig84]

Disarm doesn't spoil stuff, you are disarmed because Loki stole it from you and gave you the prod.

So I am fine with it.

 

As for decoy, I prefer a temp invulnerability for like 5 seconds (not affected by duration) and on death, it deals an AOE stun that stuns enemies in range for 5 seconds. That will be good enough.

Edited July 22, 2014 by fatpig84

[Renegade343]

Disarm doesn't spoil stuff, you are disarmed because Loki stole it from you and gave you the prod.

So I am fine with it.

I thought Loki lets loose a manipulative energy that jams/depletes/malfunctions all guns (and maybe abilities) only, not melee weapons, if I remember correctly from the Loki Radial Disarm power mod card.

[Renegade343]

Updated based on member feedback.