Silva & Aegis

[Void.Demon]

Overall I really liked this weapon , super fun and usefull , but there is someting rly bothering me - the shield block drains stamina like crazy... Whats the point in having a shield that drains stamina while blocking , then all other malee do it perfectly fine while also draining...
I think the stamina drain for the agies should be if not removed atleast reduced to a minimum...

[Loopien]

I never really bothered using the block, since it did not seem to get me anywhere new without mods anyway.

[SabreUr]

Moving to Weapons feedback.

[SciKnight]

Yeah, what's the point of a shield if it doesn't increase your defensive powers?

[Void.Demon]

I apologise for the wrong place for the thread

Moving to Weapons feedback.

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

Well, I agree with you all on the concept of having it use less stamina overall, as it is a shield with innately defensive properties, but in this case, the weapon is designed with a balance in mind. All other weapons still actually have a percentage of damage pass through them to you, and you can die while blocking if not careful, where as Aegis is the first weapon to block 100% of all damage to come into contact with it while blocking. That is why it has increased stamina drain,it is easily countered with Marathon or Quick Rest though.

[Void.Demon]

I tried with a warriors grip mod , but it still drains insanely crazy . I supose removing stamina drain would make this weapon op and nonsensical , but atleast a reduction of that drain would be nice

[Aramanth]

Well, I agree with you all on the concept of having it use less stamina overall, as it is a shield with innately defensive properties, but in this case, the weapon is designed with a balance in mind. All other weapons still actually have a percentage of damage pass through them to you, and you can die while blocking if not careful, where as Aegis is the first weapon to block 100% of all damage to come into contact with it while blocking. That is why it has increased stamina drain,it is easily countered with Marathon or Quick Rest though.

 

That actually makes sense, but at the same time there should still be a stamina reduction because the main purpose of a shield is to block.  The other weapons having blocking abilities is a utility, their main purpose is to damage.  

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

Exactly, and I agree. I was actually talking to my friends about a Sword and Shield concept a month before Update14 was even noted to have one, and I said to them it would go one of two ways in mechanics.

 

A) It either has the same percentage of damage reduction as other weapons(with perhaps a slight increase), but for the cost of no stamina or very little.

 

OR

 

B) It would block the entirety of damage received while blocking, but for increased Stamina.

 

Now, as DE is a good developer, many things actually have a correlation between mechanics and reality. Shields are heavy(at least good shields are... XD) and actually require a lot of real stamina to use. I have used a real shield before in combat against others(realistic recreation, lets not go into that at the moment though) and you have to have a lot of stamina to heft a heavy shield, and successfully block the force and strength of your opponent, so DE actually made it realistic in use. 

 

More protection, for greater stamina relates to the aspect of a trained warrior protecting himself entirely, but it still wears you down. 

[Aramanth]

Shields are heavy(at least good shields are... XD) and actually require a lot of real stamina to use. I have used a real shield before in combat against others(realistic recreation, lets not go into that at the moment though) and you have to have a lot of stamina to heft a heavy shield, and successfully block the force and strength of your opponent, so DE actually made it realistic in use. 

 

Unless Aegis is made of dark matter, there's no way that little buckler with half the pieces missing weighs more than a Fragor with G3's skin on it.  I chuckle whenever I use it because it only blocks the upper part of your body.  Even that SWAT shield the grineer use can't stop me from shooting their legs until they die.

 

Plus, realism in a game about space ninjas wielding rocket launchers and acid spitting zombie guns versus alien clones and robot cultists on the surface of Saturn is like a salad at mcDonald's.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Aramanth

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

Actually, Aegis is considered fairly heavy due to the material it is made of, and on top of that, an aspect of it's protection is the energy emitted from it when it separates out, which works like a mixture of metal & energy protecting the wielder. It isn't all about size, alloys and metals all have varying weights and densities, and as such it is hard to determine the exact weight of Aegis, but it is likely of the stronger, heavier alloys for the strength and durability of it. 

[Aramanth]

Actually, Aegis is considered fairly heavy due to the material it is made of, and on top of that, an aspect of it's protection is the energy emitted from it when it separates out, which works like a mixture of metal & energy protecting the wielder. It isn't all about size, alloys and metals all have varying weights and densities, and as such it is hard to determine the exact weight of Aegis, but it is likely of the stronger, heavier alloys for the strength and durability of it. 

Yeah, but again, realism shouldn't be a point in a game like this.    If it was, your Warframe shouldn't be able to drop 50 feet onto a metal surface or solid rock and not injure themselves, or run across a straight flat wall for more than 2 feet at the same speed.  Hell, the fact the weapons is essentially a dagger that exudes fire constantly and a shield with an ether jet in it would bring up more questions if the game was meant to be realistic.  There's a trope called Rule of Cool that says the audience will suspend disbelief if something is awesome enough.  Ether jet shields are awesome enough.

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

It isn't "Modern Realism" or "Concurrent Realism." We aren't basing it off the exact concept of our world, and our fragility. They are using "Relative Realism" and "Relativity-based mechanics" in the manner of forces, mechanics, natural entities, etc, etc, etc. 

 

The Aspect of our realism, is only used in base foundation concepts. This creates not only allows them to have a naturally good base to work off, but it also allows them to still be able to exceed some concepts of base reality. Everything you are mentioning, is merely technology. Warframe Armor is advanced beyond our understanding, and Technology is what allows to exceed the base-foundation of entire realism, however Stamina, whether a warframe or not, is still a simple physic in all living entity and thus cannot be stripped from them entirely.

Edited July 22, 2014 by (PS4)UrsaMajor95

[Aramanth]

Well, if warframe technology is beyond our understanding, who is to say the material used for the Aegis is particularly sturdy but light?

[Casval_Rouge]

Actually, Aegis is considered fairly heavy due to the material it is made of, and on top of that, an aspect of it's protection is the energy emitted from it when it separates out, which works like a mixture of metal & energy protecting the wielder. It isn't all about size, alloys and metals all have varying weights and densities, and as such it is hard to determine the exact weight of Aegis, but it is likely of the stronger, heavier alloys for the strength and durability of it. 

Oh please, no one knows how heavy it is.  No one knows what magical material is it made of.  How do YOU know the Aegis is "considered fairly heavy due to the material it is made of".  Base on what?  This is a soft-sci fi setting, NOTHING is realistic, period.  You don't get to swing the realism flag around when there are alien precursor race that have technology that dwarfs present day tech and "cyborg ninjas" that could do magic because "nano machines, son".  Right now Warframe is only called sci-fi because it is not set in the past and uses made up tech rather than mana, otherwise its fantasy.  So realism talk holds no merits here.  The only reason Aegis cost more stamina is because of balance. 

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

@ Aramanth I never said it couldn't be, you are in fact that one who said you chuckle at it, and that there is no way it is heavier then the Brokk, as if weight had something to do with it overall. 

 

@ Aramanth&Casval_Rouge What I said is most good shields are heavy, because they are, even with future tech. It's weight is a combination of metal, mechanics, and production design. Aegis has to be heavy to some degree anyway, to carry all of the mechanical aspects of it.(Jet, fuel, etc.) So, in turn of the conversation, you aren't really going anywhere with that last statement, as that aspect has already been covered. It is most likely made of Ferrite or an Alloy of that base in Warframe, which is said to be medium heavy(in a scale of "Light to Heavy") so Aegis is most likely Medium, to Medium Heavy as well by design.

[Aramanth]

Right, I did say I chuckle at that little cooking wok is able to block gun fire and rockets.  But I also said Tenno are naturally blind because most warframes don't have eyes.  I don't take most things in this game seriously because of the absurdity of it all.

 

I think we're thinking too much about it.  RIght now it's just a fancy heat dagger with a little more damage and status chance.  The way I see it there's two decisions on the future of this weapon- the expected and the logical.  The expected would be to reduce stamina costs for blocking, because when a player sees a shield they assume one thing: it blocks stuff better than someone who doesn't have a shield.  Since all melee weapons can block, a shield needs a superior block.  You mentioned that it's capable of blocking all damage instead of a portion of it, which is awesome.  But the problem is it drains stamina far faster to the point you'd end up taking damage anyway because you can't block as often.  This is where the logical decision comes into play.  It's logical that holding a heavy flame-engulfed shield in front of you would be stamina draining, even for the best trained Tenno.  The logical makes more sense in the long run but isn't as fun.  With the logical, Aegis is pointless- you might as well just have Silva, which again is just a slightly better heat dagger.  The Expected is more fun because of what gamers are used to.  We're used to sword and board being tanky, we're used to shields being able to block all damage better than parries.  It's like how we're used to thieves always having low defenses but fast speed and high crit, or mages being glass cannons.

 

I believe if they decrease the stamina cost to 50% normal stamina cost while blocking 100% of the weapon damage, and not increasing base damage, the weapon will see more use.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Aramanth

[(PSN)UrsaMajor95]

Exactly, if you direct attention to my first post, I do agree that the Stamina drain is a bit heavy, but there is a remedy to that FOR THE MOMENT. I think if the Stamina drain was about the same as the Scindo, or some other two-handed axe weapons, but with the Shields damage prevention stat, it would get more appeal. In that aspect it still drains stamina, but not to the degree it has been. Thus resolving the communities need for "disapproval" of the weapon and their stamina. 

 

Though, we can only hope for the future, thus for now. I recommend to any gamer who wants to use this weapon, put on Quick Rest and/or Marathon to alleviate the Stamina Blues.

[Aramanth]

So...we were agreeing this whole time?

 

 

I really need some sleep. =.=

 

But yeah, I'm looking for marathon at the moment because of a build I had in theory for my Rhino, who's my main S&A user.

[Beas7ie]

I tried with a warriors grip mod , but it still drains insanely crazy . I supose removing stamina drain would make this weapon op and nonsensical , but atleast a reduction of that drain would be nice

 

Removing the stamina drain wouldn't make the weapon OP and sensical at all.  Hell the same could be said for ANY melee weapon, at least for as long as guns are king and by the time you block all the shots from the bad guy and are up in his face to hit him with your sword and shield your buddy with his Boltor Prime already killed every baddie in the room.

[Casval_Rouge]

@ Aramanth I never said it couldn't be, you are in fact that one who said you chuckle at it, and that there is no way it is heavier then the Brokk, as if weight had something to do with it overall. 

 

@ Aramanth&Casval_Rouge What I said is most good shields are heavy, because they are, even with future tech. It's weight is a combination of metal, mechanics, and production design. Aegis has to be heavy to some degree anyway, to carry all of the mechanical aspects of it.(Jet, fuel, etc.) So, in turn of the conversation, you aren't really going anywhere with that last statement, as that aspect has already been covered. It is most likely made of Ferrite or an Alloy of that base in Warframe, which is said to be medium heavy(in a scale of "Light to Heavy") so Aegis is most likely Medium, to Medium Heavy as well by design.

No I am saying none of that Ferrite or Alloy talk matters because

1.  It cannot be compared to anything real and so what anyone could say is purely speculations and not facts.  Seriously, the alloys in this game is called generically "Alloys".  There are no numbers to it, we don't know what it is made of, so how can anyone know how strong or heavy it is?

2. We have no idea how much strength Tennos have, so mass means little as its effect on stamina changes base on that.  Medium heavy means nothing. What are we even comparing these things with.  Because if Aegis is medium heavy, then what is heavy?  Fragor?  Then Fragor should cost even more stamina when doing parry as Tenno would actually have to swing that thing around to deflect bullets.   But guess what, NOTHING cost more stamina on block than Aegis.  So whether Aegis is medium heavy means nothing as the effects of heavy class weapons are not reflected in game.

3.Why even talk about heavier objects require more stamina when clearly carrying overall heavier load out drains the same amount of stamina when sprinting or wall running?  Because it is not in the game.  DE didn't design the game around realism.  Rhino is also said to have more strength than others, yet weapons drain the same amount of stamina across the board.  When it should have been less of a burden on him.

[Aramanth]

Removing the stamina drain wouldn't make the weapon OP and sensical at all.  Hell the same could be said for ANY melee weapon, at least for as long as guns are king and by the time you block all the shots from the bad guy and are up in his face to hit him with your sword and shield your buddy with his Boltor Prime already killed every baddie in the room.

 

What about in pvp, where there are mods for auto-block and damage reflect.  No stamina for blocking, and one of those guys with 58 billion damage decides to be elitist all up on you, and you reflect even a fraction of that back, it's going to put them in their place real fast.  To the point you start to see people running around with block held down the same way you see people coptering through missions.

[__Kanade__]

The stamina drain needs to be there, look at Vindictus, Fiona is the tank of the game, she uses both small and large shields with large shields giving her full invulnerability to unblockable attacks that no other character except her with a large shield can do, but which ever shield you use, they both have one thing in common: Stamina.

 

You can stay in heavy stander as long as you have stamina and she won't take any damage. If you've played Vindictus, then you know how strong Fiona's defensive game is, think about it if blocking didn't drain stamina. She would be pure agro with Taunt turning the game into an easy button.

 

Taking stamina out completely is a no no, especially in a game like Warframe where balancing is still a major issue. Being a tank means absorbing all the damage you can take, but it does take it's toll on you, you won't be a tank forever, you will get tired.

Edited July 23, 2014 by __Kanade__

[manub]

About this weapon, its origin is from a player/designer contest, no?

Does anyone know the one who submitted it & if so can we ask him what he thinks about it?

Maybe he has some useful suggestions for it & DE would maybe be more inclined to listen to him seriously than to the billion players on forums these days?

[Beas7ie]

What about in pvp, where there are mods for auto-block and damage reflect.  No stamina for blocking, and one of those guys with 58 billion damage decides to be elitist all up on you, and you reflect even a fraction of that back, it's going to put them in their place real fast.  To the point you start to see people running around with block held down the same way you see people coptering through missions.

I would find that quite hilarious and prefer that over boltor prime penta and ogris spamming