[Balance] Warframe Is Sick Right Now. You Don't Need Higher-Level Content.

[Kappatalist]

I love the Soma.  Its design is really slick, and the extent to which it encourages a crit-centric build definitely differentiates it from most rifle-style primaries.

 

And yet I hate it.  And I hate Valkyr, and I hate Boltor Prime.  And I hate Mirage.  And Angstrum, and every other item you see used and abused in this game.  They're just too powerful, and as such they are poisoning the game experience.  I'd know - I've used them all, and they're just way too good.  Seriously.

 

Let's jump over to my alternate account.  I made it back in U8 as a joke, with a stupid-@$$ name to boot.  On there, all I have is starter gear.  MK1-BRATON, LATO, SKANA, EXCALIBUR.  And a few mods to boot.  All of the gear is about Rank 12.

 

I went alone to Venus.  Second planet in the game.  Mercury had been cleared out already.  I was astounded at how much of a relative challenge a Venus Exterminate mission was.  It was exciting!  I had to play smart and safe, because I really didn't have the oomph to out-gun the Corpus onslaught - I had to out-ninja them.  I actually died, once, because I made a misstep and waltzed into a door laser, and before I could get up it was all over for me.

 

I imagine the experience wouldn't have differed much if I had had a proper Braton, Aklato, and Cronus.  Easier, but still challenging.

 

That's how the game SHOULD feel.  That feeling should scale with increased enemy difficulty, and it tries - oh, it tries - to do just that.

 

But god help those poor Corpus bastards if I brought a Level 12 Rhino, Soma, etc.

 

Players have simply grown way too damn powerful, and the problem significantly compounds when all of that power is derived from such a limited (dare I even say, META) pool of items.  There's maybe 4 to 6 compliant Warframes, and a specific pool of weapons smaller than what we had in Closed Beta that make the cut.  Anything else is to be discarded after 30 - Mastery fodder and nothing more.  Choice of suit and weapon ceases to be a matter of preference in high-level content, but necessity, because the highest level content is scaled with this massively overpowered gear in mind.  Bring something like a Paris or regular Boltor, or a Dark Sword, or even Saryn or Volt, to a T4 mission, and people will think you're either a total noob, or trolling.  And don't try to be useful with that gear in T4, because it's probably not going to happen.  You're not playing by THE RULES.

 

While it goes without saying that certain weapons should be more powerful than others (Primes should exceed the original although not to the extent they have lately, Dread > Paris, Strun > MK1-Strun) the difference should not so significantly affect a player's viability that using anything but a "good" weapon is a practical joke.  When's the last time you thought to use a shotty that WASN'T the Boar Prime?  Have you even touched your Bratons since Damage 2.0?  Do you even still have it?  Why would anyone play the game stealthily with their ninja-as-all-hell Kunai if the Angstrum has a no-survivors guarantee?  Is there any other primary weapon to use past Mastery 6?  Why play any Warframe other than Valkyr?  Okay, maybe on that last one, Rhino does let you shoot while invincible.  But there's 25 Warframes in the game - why should only a minority of those be remotely viable?

 

Even in a game like League of Legends, where there are debatedly FOTM Champs and "garbage" Champs, that doesn't bar an Aatrox from stomping a Yasuo.  While it may be difficult for Bloodman to approach Cutman, and even harder to pull off the kill, it's not impossible.  In addition, there's Champions that have no problem eating up Mr. Katana, and also Champions that are no match for Mr. Regen.  The game is so meticulously and aggressively balanced that the difference between a "good" and "bad" character is not much for a master of the game.  It all comes down to personal skill and personal preference.

 

Now look at Warframe.  Equip Valkyr with the Soma, Angstrum, and D. Nikana or some other FOTM loadout and go into T4S.  You practically can't lose, and making it less than 20 minutes is a joke.  Where's the challenge?  Where's the fun in that?  There should be NO loadout that makes gameplay THAT trivial.  The problem actually does carry over into the game's PvP pretty heavily, and while that is none of my concern in this post, the effects of this imbalance do definitely make themselves known there.  Just read any Feedback post nowadays in the PvP Feedback section.  You'll see what I mean.

 

If I go to Pluto alone with max level gear, I should get my balls stomped just as hard as my newbie account got stomped on Venus if I don't play carefully and smartly.  I shouldn't need an obnoxiously high-level Void mission to... kinda feel marginally challenged?

 

tl;dr: the Nerf Bat must be swung.  QQ all you want, and cling to your Boltor Prime while you can.  I expect massive backlash from this post, but it really needs to be said, and needs to be addressed.  Having increased power with better gear and builds is not a bad thing - it's progression - but the curve is way too steep for all the wrong reasons.

 

way tl;dr: I'm mad becuz I'm OP

 

EDIT: Over the course of 88 posts, this thread has pinned the massive weapon imbalances to 3 problems - 

• Overpowered base weapon stats on some weapons, rendering "sidegrading" impossible
• Forma Polarization enabling ANY set of Mods to be used
• Overpowered and "essential" Mods, and the return of the all-hated Mod stacking

All a fix would entail is changing some numbers, remove extra polarities and force respec, and scale back Mod values and stop identical stats from stacking.

 

As for Warframe imbalances, the biggest problems are Valkyr's armor, and general power imbalances, particularly ones which play with invincibility.

 

EDIT 2: Read this guy's post, cuz it's really good and he probably deserves muffins.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/281931-balance-warframe-is-sick-right-now-you-dont-need-higher-level-content/?p=3275305

Edited August 8, 2014 by Kappatalist

[FaintestAura]

Well if you forma to all heaven and and bring said weapons to Venus then yes its gonna be ridiculously OP. Much sense?

[011100110110000101101101]

Do what I do.

 

Run high level missions with either UP or purposefully low powered builds.

 

Being OP is your fault, if you don't like it, don't use crap like that.

 

Or, you could bring your best and most OP gear and try to last as long as you can solo on a TIV Survival.

 

Challenge exists, you just need to look for it.

[Llyssa]

I do not observe what you claim is universal. I do not use what you claim is required. I outperform others with ease. Your theory is invalid.

 

If you find a build boring, don't use it.

 

I'd laugh, but it isn't worth the effort.

[TheErebus.]

OP I feel your pain. But in an entirely different game.

Dark souls 2.

After playing it for so long (NG++) I have become far too overpowered with my gear. So what I did is I switched my entire play style. I adopted a more careful and weaker build and I ended up having a much more harder and challenging run that I had before. I had to change up my tactics and it wasn't easy to get used to the new ones.

[bejuizb]

As soon as I read: I hate Valkyr, I stopped reading.

[011100110110000101101101]

As soon as I read: I hate Valkyr, I stopped reading.

It's quite an entertaining read.

 

Filled with ranting.

[ArchBlood]

This is cute.

[(PSN)alexgrig]

OP I feel your pain. But in an entirely different game.

Dark souls 2.

After playing it for so long (NG++) I have become far too overpowered with my gear. So what I did is I switched my entire play style. I adopted a more careful and weaker build and I ended up having a much more harder and challenging run that I had before. I had to change up my tactics and it wasn't easy to get used to the new ones.

use bonfire ascetics to increase the difficulty. go up to NG+10 lol. a lvl 300 will have moderate-difficult time in there!

[CY13ERPUNK]

+9999999999 OP

 

the game experience playing was so different for me back in U5-7 when i still only had a few frames and a handful of weapons, taters were rare and i didnt have all the OP mods yet

 

but now? dying is unheard of unless im ranking up a brand new frame/weapon at the same time with no mods, otherwise, everything is just more cake-walking and grinding =/

 

SO MUCH PLUS ONE OP, SO MUCH

 

DEM FEELS YO

[Kage2015]

agree ned more hard,but well,too hard people will complain :(

someone say dark soul 2?dark soul 2 is challange game,learnd form me,lv 12 beat new game ++ solo,remember join the champion convernant,make enemy hp x3 long,try it,u knw how the fck of the game is hard,ned more hard?demon soul SL 1 beat NG +++,use your skill to beat the game,well,i did it :D

Edited August 2, 2014 by Kage2015

[VoidianAgent]

Can I upvote this more than once?

I may have about 900 hours in the game, it was challenging for less than 50 hours...

IMO it's not the items fault, even boltor prime and Paris Prime are fine, the problem is in the mods and how they stack, they add bonus over bonus over bonus multiplying each other and suddenly your 200 damage bow is doing 2 million damage:


And we didn't even have a nova, rhino or any other damage amplifiers, just Mirage fun, slashing damage and a fully modded (didn't even mod it FOR insfested) Dread. The problem is in the Fully moded part.

I'm sure many people would be against changing it and making the game more challenging but I'd also vote for this idea and suggest instead an overhaul to all mods and how the math works.

PS: If game balance is changed the rewards will require an overhaul as well, people will not appreciate working harder for less stuff, it never works in any game.

Edited August 2, 2014 by VoidianAgent

[Austerity]

oh awesome, this topic again. 

 

*munches popcorn*

[Austerity]

Can I upvote this more than once?

I may have about 900 hours in the game, it was challenging for less than 50 hours...

IMO it's not the items fault, even boltor prime and Paris Prime are fine, the problem is in the mods and how they stack, they add bonus over bonus over bonus multiplying each other and suddenly your 200 damage bow is doing 2 million damage:

And we didn't even have a nova, rhino or any other damage amplifiers, just Mirage fun, slashing damage and a fully modded (didn't even mod it FOR insfested) Dread. The problem is in the Fully moded part.

I'm sure many people would be against changing it and making the game more challenging but I'd also vote for this idea and suggest instead an overhaul to all mods and how the math works.

PS: If game balance is changed the rewards will require an overhaul as well, people will not appreciate working harder for less stuff, it never works in any game.

 

Quick thought, you might not want to base your argument on a broken/bugged game mechanic (mirage clones putting out 100% red crit). Especially when its a bug that has been posted all over the forums, repeatedly, in the last two weeks. Just say'n... 

[VoidianAgent]

Quick thought, you might not want to base your argument on a broken/bugged game mechanic (mirage clones putting out 100% red crit). Especially when its a bug that has been posted all over the forums, repeatedly, in the last two weeks. Just say'n... 

Yeah I know but it kind of doesn't change the point anyway, with a regular Paris prime that should be doing around 250 base damage a regular frame without any boosts can reach 100k headshots too, it's pretty absurd.

Besides Mirage can make even non-crit weapons godlike, S#&$ty stuff I never take anywhere else wipe out entire late waves of T4D and I personally don't even think it's Mirage's fault, for all her pros she surely has her cons, I always thought the way mods work and stacks seemed far too powerful.

Edited August 3, 2014 by VoidianAgent

[Vastaren]

Do what I do.

 

Run high level missions with either UP or purposefully low powered builds.

 

Being OP is your fault, if you don't like it, don't use crap like that.

 

Or, you could bring your best and most OP gear and try to last as long as you can solo on a TIV Survival.

 

Challenge exists, you just need to look for it.

You're absolutely correct. Challenge does exist if you put it like that, and treat endgame viability as an affliction you might not be able to cure but can postpone the effects of.

The OP (original poster), however, is pointing out their opinion that you have to purposefully gimp yourself in order to experience the thrill of challenge. Should this be happening? Wouldn't a better scenario be where we don't have to intentionally downgrade our gears and have the game challenge us more on the basis of gameplay rather than gearing and modding, especially in the endgame stage?

 

That said, I would have to question a few points the OP raised.

1. When you talk about 'compliant' and 'acceptable' equipment, is it more a statement about the community and how they see the system, or about how you see the system and what you think works better in situations you'll be more involved in? 'Works better' and 'challenge-defeating' should be distinct unless you clarify this.

2. When you mention the lack of viable frames and weapons, is it more the game's inherent imbalance or the fact that you're also contributing to the devaluing of such equipment by simply not using them too? I get the feeling you're more outraged at the fact that they aren't used, rather than the fact that they can't be used, and letting this community sentiment dictate how you play.

3. When you compare the MK I Strun to the Strun, aren't you forgetting that we do have a system of progression? Equipment does, however poorly, somewhat correspond to stages that the player is at. Comparing a Braton to a Soma is like comparing Microsoft SmallBasic to C++. One's clearly an entry-level language whereas the other is industry-level. If I wanted to extend the analogy, then if we pretend that the Soma is C++, we can just as easily say that MATLAB is like the Penta - both industry-standard, but excel in different roles. Either way, there's a clear distinction between those two, and something like SmallBasic, which I think you haven't addressed.

4. Nerfing. Have you considered other, arguably better ways to introduce challenge? Pure number tweaking like you seem to suggest is a horrible way to 'balance'. We've seen this with T4 missions - what did they add? Oh, just another set of void missions where the enemies are simply scaled even higher. Is this new, exciting, or any more rewarding than T3 content? To an extent, but the concept behind it is exactly the same.

Shifting the focus from a numbers game to a skill-based game, however, might do more to help the situation. Rather than attack the stats on certain endgame equipment, maybe introducing drawbacks and advantages, such as what's seen here or here would be a (subjectively speaking, maybe you like big numbers and prefer infinite scaling) more engaging way to 'challenge' players that doesn't involve pure number tweaking and scaling, which might be what you're really looking for instead of 'push decimal places up one on everything', which was the impression I got from your post.

 

Otherwise, yes, tl;dr, challenge isn't particularly proportional to gearing and modding, which is the sad focus of Warframe over gameplay mechanics. That I'd agree with to an extent.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Vastaren

[Kappatalist]

Well if you forma to all heaven and and bring said weapons to Venus then yes its gonna be ridiculously OP. Much sense?

Yes.  Your point?

 

Do what I do.

 

Run high level missions with either UP or purposefully low powered builds.

 

Being OP is your fault, if you don't like it, don't use crap like that.

 

Or, you could bring your best and most OP gear and try to last as long as you can solo on a TIV Survival.

 

Challenge exists, you just need to look for it.

A game is not balanced at all well when a player must intentionally gimp themselves to be challenged.

 

As soon as I read: I hate Valkyr, I stopped reading.

Valkyr is an awesomely designed Warframe with a unique story to tell, and an interesting array of powers.  The actual meaning of the hyperbole is that she's just too goddamn overpowered in her current state.  It's Tinfoil Iron Skin all over again, in the literal sense.

 

agree ned more hard,but well,too hard people will complain :(

Everyone complains when nerfs are in order.  It just deems like the DEvs haven't had the balls to drop that hammer in quite some time, short of fixing things like broken abilities.

 

IMO it's not the items fault, even boltor prime and Paris Prime are fine, the problem is in the mods and how they stack, they add bonus over bonus over bonus multiplying each other and suddenly your 200 damage bow is doing 2 million damage.

[...]

The problem is in the Fully moded part.

Amen to that.  Mods in general need to be scaled back.  And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the purposes of the Mods system to ELIMINATE Mod stacking?  And here we are now.

 

 

To everyone else "entertained" by this thread, I hope you're enjoying the show so far.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Vastaren.  In response -

1. The idea I proposed of "acceptable" equipment is a general statement - once a player acquires certain gear, they have no incentive to use anything else, short of intentionally nerfing their own power level in an effort to have fun.  Your choices of "endgame" gear are kinda limited: crit rifle, projectile rifle, rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and maybe a few others ("What about the x?").  What about unique weapons like the Mutalist Quanta?  Worthless for endgame.  Even its utility isn't enough to make up for the vastly inferior damage it deals.

 

2. Believe me, I refuse to sell any Warframe I acquire (and I almost own them all) for I feel that, in the game's own words, mind you, each tool has its purpose... or at least they should.  When my hand isn't forced into using a "safe" frame, I try to play outside of the metabox, dust off old Excalibur Prime, Volt, Ember, Ash (my favorite!), and Zephyr.  Been having a lot of fun with Zephyr lately.  Max duration with Tail Wind makes her the ultimate living missile.  Stuff like that is FUN!  But it's a no-go in endgame-y stuff, and that blows.  No pun intended.

 

3. While I agree that there is a progression present, and there definitely should be, I quote myself here: "the curve is way too steep for all the wrong reasons".  For one, the viability discrepancy between an ordinary rifle like the Boltor or the Karak and a weapon like the Soma is MASSIVE, and the question comes to mind: should there really be a progression in the relative power of weapons, when there is already a very potent progression system in the form of Mods?  Or should the potency of Mods be crushed?

 

4. To be honest, I used the word "nerf" pretty liberally.  My intent is that the challenge needs to come up, and I really didn't cite any specific method of facilitating this.  While numbers do need to shift, and that can bring us somewhat far, more skill needs to be involved in so much of this game's core gameplay.  Much of rebalancing items is numbers, based, though.  Warframe abilities, on the other hand, are another story entirely.

 

Thank you for your constructive input, sir.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Kappatalist

[Chub_N_Tuck]

I feel you man. Look at ODD and how people insist on bringing vauban and Nyx to go infintely. Not saying it's wrong or anything, but it's almost like an accepted exploit. Just vortex it up and angstrum/penta/ogris the hell out of everything.

 

ODD really needs to be changed in its map orientation.

 

But I think using Ember Prime is fun and challenging enough for me, so I use her the most when I'm not ranking.

[Kappatalist]

But I think using Ember Prime is fun and challenging enough for me, so I use her the most when I'm not ranking.

Ember Prime is the sh!t, bro.  High five.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

Ember Prime is the sh!t, bro.  High five.

[011100110110000101101101]

A game is not balanced at all well when a player must intentionally gimp themselves to be challenged.

I never said the game was balanced, I said you can find challenge out there.

 

Warframe is so pitifully unbalanced it's laughable.

 

However, DE is making a bit of progress.  If you look at the bosses and their new scaling, they are much harder then they were.

 

You could look at Zanuka and the little jerk would disintegrate right before your eyes, now it actually takes a little bit of effort in staying away from it and attacking Alad.

 

Same thing with Lephantis, I fought a level 60 Lephantis.  Was it fun?  Not quite, but he is hard to kill when a Boltor Prime does 10 damage a shot.

 

If you didn't know about the new boss scaling, check it out, it's much better now.

[Kappatalist]

I never said the game was balanced, I said you can find challenge out there.

 

Warframe is so pitifully unbalanced it's laughable.

 

However, DE is making a bit of progress.  If you look at the bosses and their new scaling, they are much harder then they were.

 

You could look at Zanuka and the little jerk would disintegrate right before your eyes, now it actually takes a little bit of effort in staying away from it and attacking Alad.

 

Same thing with Lephantis, I fought a level 60 Lephantis.  Was it fun?  Not quite, but he is hard to kill when a Boltor Prime does 10 damage a shot.

 

If you didn't know about the new boss scaling, check it out, it's much better now.

I do like the new scaling - in fact, it's everything I could have hoped for!  Problem is, it's still pretty easy with imba gear.

 

I have no problem with finding ways to challenge myself, but my point is that a game should not force me to do so, as it should inherently and consistently be able to provide that challenge in an appropriate-level area.  Using your example of the new scaling: it's a perfect way to keep bosses entertaining, but even a max-level boss is no match for the best gear.  I've downed Level 50 Vor, Lv50 Elephantis, Lv50 this, Lv50 that, without too much of a problem.  That right there should not be possible.

 

However, instead of addressing the core problem, DE has further bandaged it by implementing things like poison damage and Capcom shoot-here spots.  Those aren't fun.  They're annoying - a chore to deal with.  Case in point - the entirety of the Sargas Ruk battle is waiting for a blue glowy, then one-shotting it.

[Gryffinhart]

Yeah, sadly any challenge is nearly non-existant and I doubt that's gonna change. The poor widdle community will cry their lil booties off if DE has the gall to actually balance the game and make players actually have to play how they want instead of how the meta wants.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Gryffinhart

[Kappatalist]

Yeah, sadly any challenge is nearly non-existant and I doubt that's gonna change. The poor widdle community will cry their lil booties off if DE has the gall to actually balance the game and make players actually have to play how they want instead of how the meta wants.

Well too bad for the poor widdle QQers.  Balance > Power-Fantasy.  Sadly though, this one fact has before and will again stop the DEvs from balancing the things in their BETA software.

 

We really do need a Balance Pass and Mods 3.0.

 

And Melee 3.0 imo, but that's another story.  Charge attacks were the bomb, yo, but they were so OP.

 

Point is, if I saw in the U15 patchnotes:

"All items and mods have been radically rebalanced to improve the health of gameplay.  All accounts have been reset as a result of this change."

I would be happy.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Kappatalist

[Semshol]

-Op's Post-

 

Quit Warframe and go play Dark Souls 2 if you don't like being OP. But guess what you can be OP in any game if you want. If you're sick and tired and want a challenge. Go build one of those 'trash weapons' and use it on any level you like. What's the matter? Scared to actually take up your own challenge?

 

Also, which pro uses a D. Nikana with Valkyr. Dual Ichors are the weapon of choice =_=, that's a FACT.