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ash underwhelming? (mained loki beforehand)


mesmer
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my beginner frame was loki as he seemed perfect for me as a sword focused assassin type of player.

about half way through loki i knew my next frame would be ash because he seems to be exactly like loki althought more of an offense focused assassin rather than a trickster manipulation focused assassin.

so i saved 35k and bought ash's blueprints, found all his parts, farmed all the materials, farmed the 100k or so it takes to build him, waited 12 hours for each part then 3 days for ash to build. and while this is all happening my loki is getting to max level.

i wake up this morning and ash is finally done, hurray! im a bit underwhelmed.

his first ability has a strange little "charging" delay before he throws his shuriken meaning where i am aiming when i thorw it is often not where it ends up unless the enemy is standing completely still. which means you have to press it then quickly like quick scope it to hit targets. and if you miss 25 energy gone. as a level 1 skill it seems a little underwhelming in general especially compared to his assassin brother whos level 1 allows you to distract a whole crowd for like 10 seconds at level 1 allowing you to get in and just melee dice a whole squad.

is it supposed to 1 hit kill normal enemies? what about bigger guys? will it impale a person it cant 1 shot kill? it just feels a little underwhelming as a first ability or as a ability in general. its also a little hard to see because of its size. it would possibly work better if it was one of the big shrukiken or possibly a slight rework of the first abiity in general to something where within melee range he throws lots of shrukiens like a shotgun sort of. or possibly a skill where he does tons of rapid slashes to enemies in front of him in a small cone that levels with damage and increases units hit.

his smoke screen is also a bit underwhelming compared to lokis invisibility. lokis invisibility at level 1 last for a pretty decent amount of time (like 4-6seconds and you can attack while invisible allowing you to be offensive or escape/lay decoys) while ash's only last 1 second.it slightly staggers people around you when you go invisible for half a second or so and thats the trade off? you go invisible and before you can finish the melee animation on one person youre already visible again and 50 energy is gone.

his teleport is fine and i havent reached bladestorm yet, but if i didnt have weapons leveled from my loki leveling i honestly dont see how i could level ash when the levels get more difficult.

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perfect example, im level 5 fighting level 6 robots. i find 100 energy quickly and the next room has 4 robots which i see on my radar.

i want to test if shrukien 1 hit kills stronger things or even impales robots/things with shields. i throw 1, it misses, throw another it removes 1/3 of the shield... 50 energy gone. i run to cover but it turns out one is to the side of me now. my shield is gone so i figure i better smoke screen and move away. i use smoke screen and before i can even take 4 steps im out of stealth (and it doesnt stagger robots) and im now at 20% health from robots shooting me.

what a useless frame. im pretty upset now considering how much i worked my &#! off to get him. and to buy him with plat cost like 25 dollars but you cant buy 25 worth so youd have to spend 29.99.. really? for this?

(edit) the shrukien also hits the wall in front of you unless youre completely out of cover.

Edited by mesmer
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My only real problems with Ash are his almost useless first ability and how much teleport costs. The shuriken could be fixed by making it much faster and by adding an additional shuriken in a spread pattern for every upgrade level. The fact that teleport costs 75 is crazy considering they lowered Excalibur's super jump to 10, which is perfect. I would get a lot of utility out of teleport if it was the same cost, but i'm pretty sure the devs are doing a pass on all powers pretty soon.

Edited by Sealgaire
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Yea I would much prefered if Ash's teleport cost are a bit lower. As it is, you have no reason to really use it, when you can just save the energy for Blade Storm, which is really good. If your team is feeling a bit underwhelmed by masses of enemies, Ash does a pretty good job of taking out every enemy in the room, as it does 1k damage per hit. So as of right now, the only real skill to use on Ash is Blade Storm.

Edited by demsoulja
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I like Ash, but personally I feel he needs some refinement before he is truly an excellent Frame. These are my thoughts on the abilities:

-Shuriken feels odd, because it feels off when aiming. It's satisfying to pin people to walls but this is more often than not underutilised for me personally due to the nature of aiming a shuriken, and the fact that it's purely single target. Why would I use 25 energy when I could just headshot the guy, or save my energy for smoke screen, which is infinitely more useful? There needs to be more incentive and more power to this ability. Perhaps upon upgrading Shuriken, it pins people but also richochet's and hits others around that guy? That'd make it pretty powerful but far more in line with say, Volt's Shock attack or Excalibur's insanely good Slash Dash. Hell, even Rhino's charge too. It's currently too singular in its ability and is rarely an option in a chaotic situation.

-Smoke Screen is incredible, because it gives Ash more identity. I'd like to see the visuals of the ability more exaggerated, but otherwise I really like how this works, and it promotes close range combat very well.

-Teleport is a good idea marred by poor hitboxes and being teleported too close to the enemy. Right now when I teleport, I'm basically up the guys sphincter and my weapons clip through him. This needs to be fixed, with both the hit detection/clipping bugs, and by also making it so you teleport in front of the guy but not so close that you're basically up his backside.

-Blade Storm is a great idea, but executing it is a volatile and often lethal move, not just for some enemies but yourself too. Currently while it does good damage, it can leave you wide open after the ability expires due to its erratic nature and tendency to leave you in the middle of a turdstorm. It can sometimes work very very well, in that it wipes the room and you're mostly safe, but more often than not it won't hit many people at all, and because you're not invulnerable while teleporting about you're susceptible to dying quite easily after it. Make Ash invulnerable while teleporting, and improve the enemy detection and teleport frequency so that it doesn't bug out and kill like, 2 people out of 10.

IMO these kinds of refinements will really bring out what Ash is all about, and that's deception and stealthy moves.

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Just bought the Ash warframe myself, while i am definatly enjoying it - i dont get the same satisfaction that i did with my original excalibur slash dash. slaughter. Mind you i have not leveled my ash up as much, but i get the same feeling from shuriken as the rest of you guys.

I reckon it might work possibly if it were almost spammable, possibly costing less energy (less damage ofcause), then the aiming is less of an issue, as it wont seem as as much of an energy waste if you miss.

Or maybe a bit of an 'auto-aim', not so much as to make it totally easy, but just to 'forgive' the tiny bit off aim of the bolt, and also lag.

There are also a couple good suggestions (like Frozencrys ricocheting shuriken).

I know the first skill isnt meant to be the be all and end all of skill, but i just seem to feel it is almost not worth casting at the moment as i feel that i will just miss. As it stands right now, it just doesnt feel... right.

BUT i love the animation that comes with it it is certainly rewarding when you do hit a target with the shuriken, seing them rag doll on the wall is quite satisfying.

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How about we come up with suggestions to help make Ash a bit more defined.

Shuriken:

Thing I would change with shuriken is to either make it ricochet like said before and have it bounce around a couple of times so you can hit more then one person or hit one person multiple times. As you level up the skill Ash will throw multiple shurikens that will bounce all over the place and cut down everyone. Imagine the carnage in a hallway.

The second thing I might do is instead of one small shuriken, how about he whips out two giant shurikens and then thrust them ahead of him and just decapitating everyone in front of him, with a small vaccum effect just to help draw in the guys that are just a bit out of range. However those that are out of range but not out of the vaccum effect will get either dazed or pushed back a bit. Higher levels will increase the distance, damage, and amount of enemies sucked in with the vaccum effect. Though I would give Ash a bit of a recovery time just to make it punishable if used recklessly. So its a risk reward thing, do you wanna clear an entire hallway and risk the possiblity of getting hit during recovery or do you wanna save it for moments that you actually need it.

Third option is the have the shuriken act like a sticky grenade and explode after a set period of time. Higher levels will increase the blast radius. Could also have him throw shurikens in a cone then have them explode either all at the same time or one by one. After all this is a futuristic game, needs more futuristic mechanics.

Smoke Screen:

Only real thing I would change is make the smoke linger for a longer period and have enemies inside the smoke be disoriented during its duration so Ash can actually get away or kill them off. As well as having him lose aggro to anyone that was targeting him beforehand.

Teleport:

This skill is pretty solid as is however the only gripe i have with it is the cost of the skill. Ash kinda gives off that, "I'm a teleporting assassin." more then Loki, so I would have assumed that teleporting was his main gap closer rather then just running up to them. Maybe decrease the cost to around 15 energy or so, enough that players can actually utilize it and not spam the ability. Also with a lower cost, it'll go well with the patch's lower shields so players can teleport, assassinate a target, then teleport to an ally.

Blade Dance:

This ability is probably Ash's best skill currently, though it still has some bugs such as not detecting the enemies in the room and only killing off one enemy and leaving the other fifteen alive. Should also have Ash either return to his original location after using the skill or have him stand near the last enemy he killed. Right now he just seems like he kinda just teleports to another random location.

These are just my two cents on how to make him a bit better and more define as a frame.

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I think Ash should be the next one to get a nice update just like Ember did in this one. I like his Smoke Screen but it lasts too little. His teleport requires way too much power for what it does and his blade storm is a bit glitchy.

Also the shuriken is bad. I think it should be removed and replaced with a weapon similar to the Glavie from Dark Sector.

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I'm playing Ash and I should say that this is one of the most powerful WFs, he can deal TONS of damage with his blade storm ability and with the right mods he is unstoppable

Volt looks at you funny and his 6000 damage hitting everything multiple times, ruining entire levels. Mag kinda blinks, looking at entire rooms being mushed. Excalibur smiles and points at the new decoration he made out of walls, enemies, swords and their combination. Loki giggles as he runs away from completely harmless mobs trying to chase him like on a school yard. Rhino shrugs, walking through a Michael Bay scene.

Ash is standing over there, with his knife in hand, next to him Trinity and Ember. "I wish I was that cool." But the girls understand him.

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i would agree with all that was said here.I got myself Ash too,and after being all melee Excalibur,Ash feels so weak and useless,especialy when playing solo.After thinking that he might get better with some lvls,well,he didnt and it seems i will return to Excalibur till they will remake him.

+about big shuriken that will kill evrything on the way

+about reducing the cost of teleporting and i think you should be teleporting behind the target actualy (something like backstab teleport)

+about smoke getting a bit more power up (from all 4 abilities,this one feels the most usefull)

+about blade storm getting reworked a bit.Make like a radius of reach,where you can teleport and kil lthe enemy.And a bit something that others didnt say about blade storm,make it like 3~5 hit on heavy/boss units (each consecutive hit should have reduced dmg from like first hit should be 1000 and the last should drop to around 100~200? not sure about numbers,just giving an example) And consecutive hits should trigger if the target wasnt killed by 1 hit or its the only target in atk radius.

I know,it might be a bit difficult to make all that,but it will actualy feel like an melee assasin warframe,while it being one of the expensive ones too.

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I wish I had seen this thread before I went through all the trouble in farming the parts. 2 days until ash crafting finishes. Well I hope they rework the abilities in the future.

Same. I spent the whole day trying to get all the peices, even went ahead and became a founder because I couldn't wait to play it. When I got it..... half the time when I use Shuriken the enemies just disappear and not get pinned (and I can't even see what I threw), smoke screen is sorta nice but it really does need to be longer. I haven't gotten further with it to get teleport and Blade Storm, but I'm already itching to go back to Excalibur....

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Volt looks at you funny and his 6000 damage hitting everything multiple times, ruining entire levels. Mag kinda blinks, looking at entire rooms being mushed. Excalibur smiles and points at the new decoration he made out of walls, enemies, swords and their combination. Loki giggles as he runs away from completely harmless mobs trying to chase him like on a school yard. Rhino shrugs, walking through a Michael Bay scene.

Ash is standing over there, with his knife in hand, next to him Trinity and Ember. "I wish I was that cool." But the girls understand him.

lol.giflol.giflol.giflol.gif

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Same. I spent the whole day trying to get all the peices, even went ahead and became a founder because I couldn't wait to play it. When I got it..... half the time when I use Shuriken the enemies just disappear and not get pinned (and I can't even see what I threw), smoke screen is sorta nice but it really does need to be longer. I haven't gotten further with it to get teleport and Blade Storm, but I'm already itching to go back to Excalibur....

Thats almost the same story with me,just that i went and got all the skills first and then returned to Excalibur

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After getting all the abilities, I cried and went back to Exacilibur.

I agree with a lot of the suggestions most of you have said buuuuuut I'll just throw in my input as well:

-Shuriken: One person says kill everything on the way, one person says make it bigger. So why don't we combine both and let it act like the Excailburs Slash and Dash, except instead of us running, we throw a huge shuriken that cuts people in it's path. Bouncing off walls would also be pretty cool but that's going to cost a lot of development time I assume. That or make the blasted thing instant.

-Smoke: I dig the fact that it combines the Excailibur's Radial Blind and Loki's Invisibility, but like most people said, the duration on this thing is horrible. I could see it being justified if the cost was also 25, but taking a huge chunk of energy like that with almost no benefit besides taking off the hate seems wrong.

-Teleport: It's almost useless having this thing. Sure you can teleport up to an enemy, but so what? The range on it is bad, you don't get any benefit from it because you're in the enemies scrotum, and you lose 75 energy when a well placed Shuriken could have done the job. Like other people said, make it so you teleport BEHIND the enemy and maybe for 3 seconds your melee triples in power or something.

-Blade Storm: Like demsoulja said about it, you could die from it in some circumstance, which is what happened to me. The room with the 3 bridges with elevators on the left and right side of the room, I used it here, got a good bit of kills, but got thrown randomly in one of the top floors surrounded by 6 Moa's and a few Crewmen who proceeded to blow me away. If we are to fix this, why not make it into a charge ability? He holds a pose for a certain number of seconds as some AOE dome thing gets bigger around him. As it gets bigger, it'll highlight enemies that it can hit, even see the one's that are behind walls. He let's it go and he proceeds to rape while knowing EXACTLY who is going to die and then you teleport to your original spot you teleported from. For the animation, I suggest that instead of his poke that he does, he appears behind the enemies as they are being ripped apart.

Edited by Jouten
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Man, so far I really agree with the Shuriken being big, like a Fuuma Shuriken, and then u trow it in a line foward, cutting everything on its path, just as someone said, the Slash Dash (Excalibur). The Smoke Screen should really feel like a screen, like more radius and a better, dense effect and just lasting a lil longer, so u could do a slash party to the enemies inside the smoke or flee from the situation. Teleport should really cost less energy and teleport u behind the enemy, could be cool if u could start charging a melee and use teleport, and when u get behind the unlucky soul ur charged attack is almost or ready, and u can picture the scene. And yeah, the Blade Storm, when I first saw the description I was like "wow this looks cool", and it was, kinda, I though it would be more like u are in the middle of a room, surounded by enemies, and u use the Blade Storm, then u would vanish, the camera would be at the same point u were, and u would appear randomly giving a heavy damage slash at the enemies around u, just like that, the camera stay there, u circle around slashing a certain number of fools, and then u get back to the exact point u were before all the carnage, I think it would look cooler and more efficient since u would know where u would go back and would have a better view of the situation after ur attack.

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