The Boltor Prime.

[XxMAGGOTxX]

This is not a thread about nerfing it, but about buffing it. Personally, the Status Chance on that thing could use a buff. A decent one, nothing major. We don't need 30 status chance on it, but come on.... 10 % on THAT Prime weapon?

[--FORMA--]

50 Damage at base.

[FaintestAura]

Doesn't need it

[fatpig84]

This is not a thread about nerfing it, but about buffing it. Personally, the Status Chance on that thing could use a buff. A decent one, nothing major. We don't need 30 status chance on it, but come on.... 10 % on THAT Prime weapon?

 

Cos it is a weapon that can get nearly 40k burst DPS before even factoring in bonuses.

DE has to give it some down sides.

[R34LM]

The weapon is best served as a big damage dealer. It wasn't intended to be too utilitarian.

[XxMAGGOTxX]

Hmm, I see your points. I don't know, just seems weak when it comes to status chance.

[FaintestAura]

Hmm, I see your points. I don't know, just seems weak when it comes to status chance.

Sure. But when your are shredding through T4 level enemies, I don't think people think about status much 

[fatpig84]

Hmm, I see your points. I don't know, just seems weak when it comes to status chance.

It doesn't need status.

 

A team with 4 Corrosive projections and running full on Boltor Primes can work for a pretty damn well long time since no Grineer armor to worry. Huzzah ! The damage it can put out is on the high end after all.

[Vastaren]

Why shouldn't it have disadvantages, even if status chance is, practically speaking, a non-issue? Variety should be just as much about people weighing up one weapon against another as it is finding the optimal way to build one single weapon to handle specific situations.

 

Having a weapon with 100% of stats above all the rest makes for a dull gameplay experience where every other weapon is compared against one as a benchmark, such that people end up trying to make other weapons as close to a Boltor Prime reskin as possible. I would say leave it at 10% if anything. Weak on status chance isn't even a factor for most people, I see no reason to make a clear choice even clearer.

[Arabaxus]

Hmm, I see your points. I don't know, just seems weak when it comes to status chance.

 

Boltor Prime is fine as it is.

Here, have a high sustained DPS, easy to handle weapon, with slightly below average status, slightly above average ammo economy, and bullet travel time.

 

If you want the higher sustained DPS and Status Chance, Latron Prime and Paris Prime fit that purpose perfectly, but have the downside of not being as user-friendly, since they are precision weapons. Of course, other than beating BP in terms of DPS and status, they also have better ammunition economy, which seems like a fair trade-off for being a weapon that is generally harder to use.

 

So, I do disagree with you, but I don't agree that anything needs changing. The three "top" (subjectively, of course) primary weapons, Latron P, Paris P, and Boltor P are fine as is currently. 

 

And before anyone tries to lynch me, yes Amprex is fantastic too.

 

 

Why shouldn't it have disadvantages, even if status chance is, practically speaking, a non-issue? Variety should be just as much about people weighing up one weapon against another as it is finding the optimal way to build one single weapon to handle specific situations.

 

Having a weapon with 100% of stats above all the rest makes for a dull gameplay experience where every other weapon is compared against one as a benchmark, such that people end up trying to make other weapons as close to a Boltor Prime reskin as possible. I would say leave it at 10% if anything. Weak on status chance isn't even a factor for most people, I see no reason to make a clear choice even clearer.

 

 

See: People who put Heavy Caliber on Latron Prime and Paris Prime rather than aim for heads. And then when the calculator doesn't spit out a DPS number as high as the Boltor Prime, incoming whines of "Boltor Prime OP".

 

This isn't a problem caused by the Boltor Prime, it's a problem caused by the community themselves.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Arabaxus

[taiiat]

a 10% Status Chance is pretty good for an Automatic Weapon. you get a lot of Status Effects as it is. 

 

no reason for it to change. there's plenty of other Weapons who's Status Chance is lacking, rather. Weapons which don't pump out as much Ammunition. far more precise Weapons.

 

Cos it is a weapon that can get nearly 40k burst DPS before even factoring in bonuses.

DE has to give it some down sides.

it doesn't have any downsides though. not a single one. the closest thing to a downside is it doesn't have Infinite Ammo. but that's not really something we can count.

[Arabaxus]

a 10% Status Chance is pretty good for an Automatic Weapon. you get a lot of Status Effects as it is. 

 

no reason for it to change. there's plenty of other Weapons who's Status Chance is lacking, rather. Weapons which don't pump out as much Ammunition. far more precise Weapons.

 

it doesn't have any downsides though. not a single one. the closest thing to a downside is it doesn't have Infinite Ammo. but that's not really something we can count.

 

Just like in many other games, Boltor Prime is a generic, fully automatic weapon. There aren't many noticeable downsides, but nothing particularly special about it either. No, DPS is nothing special because there are other weapons, namely precision weapons, considering the broken nature of shotguns, that can outpace it when used correctly.

 

Like Sniper Rifles in other games, they usually kill faster, but have a higher skill cap to use it effectively. It's easy to spot downsides when a weapon is clearly niched, such as how it is easy to say that the downside of the damage of a shotgun is its limited range, not only in Warframe but in other games, and how the downside of a Sniper Rifle is that it is difficult to use at close range, but when you talk about a generic, well rounded weapon, it's much harder to describe downsides, especially since it is subjective, as something you may think is bad, others may find useful.

[Eric1738]

30% on automatic rifle with 10.0 fire rate is absurd. boltor p does not need any buff. and preferably no nerf either

Edited September 1, 2014 by Eric1738

[Vastaren]

This isn't a problem caused by the Boltor Prime, it's a problem caused by the community themselves.

I don't think we can so completely disregard the Boltor Prime's stats and how combat works in Warframe as factors contributing to its statistically disproportionate usage. Compared with a range of weapons, its stats are certainly above-average, with high base damage, high rate of fire, average reload time for an automatic weapon, and fairly limited bloom. Calculators do spit out a high DPS which, looking at how its handled, isn't dependent on a mouse-wheel macro or aiming for heads. It's objectively easier to get closer to that calculator value for the Boltor Prime than it is for the Latron or Paris Prime.

Is its wide acceptance as a benchmark purely due to how the community handles it as a point-and-die weapon that complements the fast-paced nature of combat in Warframe? Or can we say anything about how its stats affect this as well? I see nothing in the stats that tries to 'compensate' for its design regarding how synergistic it is with general combat in Warframe, unlike other weapons which are situationally just as viable, but fall off otherwise. I personally attribute the fact that people do use it as a standard to 'test' other weapons against due to its stats and design, not only because people don't/can't strive for a higher skill level required to make other weapons just as viable. It's at least as much about the Boltor Prime's stats and design as it is about the community taking advantage of it.

 

Other weapons do have a higher skill recommendation in order to get the most out of it, and I'm not saying you don't have a case in pointing out that the way the community uses the weapons is a part of why feedback to it is so positive. But that's the problem, I find - the weapon's design makes it all too easy to use and mod for, not the other way round. Here, the weapon itself defines the way people use it, not the other way round. While other weapons require aiming, or efficient fire, the Boltor Prime discourages these through its stats, which determine how the min-maxers in the community use it.

 

It's easy to spot downsides when a weapon is clearly niched

I'm agreeing with you here, but that's not to say that there are downsides proportionate to its design. The Boltor Prime may not need a nerf, provided combat in Warframe changes up to allow for more situations where the Boltor Prime as a well-rounded mid-range rifle isn't the best choice. But this isn't necessarily a symptom of a narrow-minded community. The design of the weapon lends itself to being used more often in the context of Warframe's combat, and the stats do nothing to disabuse players of this notion.

[Arabaxus]

I don't think we can so completely disregard the Boltor Prime's stats and how combat works in Warframe as factors contributing to its statistically disproportionate usage. Compared with a range of weapons, its stats are certainly above-average, with high base damage, high rate of fire, average reload time for an automatic weapon, and fairly limited bloom. Calculators do spit out a high DPS which, looking at how its handled, isn't dependent on a mouse-wheel macro or aiming for heads. It's objectively easier to get closer to that calculator value for the Boltor Prime than it is for the Latron or Paris Prime.

Is its wide acceptance as a benchmark purely due to how the community handles it as a point-and-die weapon that complements the fast-paced nature of combat in Warframe? Or can we say anything about how its stats affect this as well? I see nothing in the stats that tries to 'compensate' for its design regarding how synergistic it is with general combat in Warframe, unlike other weapons which are situationally just as viable, but fall off otherwise. I personally attribute the fact that people do use it as a standard to 'test' other weapons against due to its stats and design, not only because people don't/can't strive for a higher skill level required to make other weapons just as viable. It's at least as much about the Boltor Prime's stats and design as it is about the community taking advantage of it.

 

Other weapons do have a higher skill recommendation in order to get the most out of it, and I'm not saying you don't have a case in pointing out that the way the community uses the weapons is a part of why feedback to it is so positive. But that's the problem, I find - the weapon's design makes it all too easy to use and mod for, not the other way round. Here, the weapon itself defines the way people use it, not the other way round. While other weapons require aiming, or efficient fire, the Boltor Prime discourages these through its stats, which determine how the min-maxers in the community use it.

 

I'm agreeing with you here, but that's not to say that there are downsides proportionate to its design. The Boltor Prime may not need a nerf, provided combat in Warframe changes up to allow for more situations where the Boltor Prime as a well-rounded mid-range rifle isn't the best choice. But this isn't necessarily a symptom of a narrow-minded community. The design of the weapon lends itself to being used more often in the context of Warframe's combat, and the stats do nothing to disabuse players of this notion.

 

What I'm trying to say is things like Latron and Paris far outperform what the calculator tells you. The calculator assumes you are pointing and clicking and hitting the body. It doesn't show off things like status DoTs or Procs. For example, I don't mod all DPS for Boltor Prime, I use things like Malignant Force to amplify it's status, because to me, having armor reducing capabilities increases my DPS in the long run. Does the calculator accurately portray this? No.

 

The community is not taking advantage of anything either. In almost every single gunnery based game, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc. for example, the weapons that see the most use overall by the community are almost always the automatic, well rounded weapons. That's to be expected, as for the average player, the casual player, and even just any player who has not completely gotten used to the more niche weapons, they have the most consistent performance. At the same time, in an RPG where you and your enemies progress, it is natural to gravitate towards the stronger weapons, with the best stats. However, Boltor Prime's power is clearly defined in the stats, whereas the other two I always refer to, Latron and Paris, do not have their best points properly represented in the stat chart simply because you cannot represent those kinds of benefits with a simple DPS spreadsheet, as it is variable on each individual player.

 

All weapons in this game, if we are to make an assumption that everyone mods for optimal performance, demand what mods you place on them, not the other way around. I put things like Point Strike and Vital Sense over extra Elemental Mods on Paris and Latron because I want to take advantage of their Critical potential. I put Stabilizer on Latron because I want to take advantage of the low recoil, make it close to none, which allows me to fire faster and still hit consistent headshots. Meanwhile, because the Boltor Prime doesn't have Critical potential, and isn't designed for long range, especially when the targets are moving, I don't put those mods onto Boltor, and use other ones. Both ways, the weapon calls upon the mods, not vice versa. Again, it is easier to see in the examples of Latron and Paris because it is more apparent due to the fact these mods see less use than others, which makes it a clear that there was a choice made. However, do not forget the omission of these mods is also a choice, based on the weapon itself.

 

Excuse my use of the word niche, I did not mean to refer to the weapons having a group of players who use it, I meant niche as in category of weapons. The community itself, narrow-minded or not, is subjective, but it is not the community's fault. If something is harder to notice, it makes sense both logically and statistically that less people will notice it. I used to be one who chased DPS tables and did things like put Heavy Caliber onto Latron Prime and Paris Prime, and it is through experience, after trying to use these weapons, in which I learned to not blindly follow a calculator. Hell, it's better for players to learn and make this decision themselves, if they choose to do so, rather than for me to go into every thread and simply hand out answers. I continue post these things because people use these examples as justifications for "Boltor P OP nerf pls DE" threads and posts that seem to pop up like weeds.

 

I don't believe in making strength so skill dependent that to excel the furthest in Warframe you have to be "skilled" or aim for headshots or do anything of the sort. Hosing with the Boltor is a perfectly acceptable playstyle, which makes it so players who are either less skilled or make the choice to not want to aim for the head and do just as well as players who are more skilled or make the choice to indeed use precision weapons and aim for heads. This way, the casual and the more "hardcore" player both get to participate and none are discriminated against.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Arabaxus

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This is not a thread about nerfing it, but about buffing it. Personally, the Status Chance on that thing could use a buff. A decent one, nothing major. We don't need 30 status chance on it, but come on.... 10 % on THAT Prime weapon?

 

Only my Amprex and Soma can outpace my Boltor Prime, and I haven't even put a catalyst on it. If it had a high status chance it would be THE weapon-- insanely high damage, innate punch-through, and only travel time as a "downside" in a game with few long-range engagements. I would have no reason to use anything else except to gimp myself. No way it should be buffed at all.

[taiiat]

there are other weapons that can outpace it when used correctly.

as long as every single Shot from your Crit Weapon hits it's absolute mark and every single shot lines up a bunch of Enemies at once, yes.

 

otherwise, not really. BoltorP has no downsides. none. aiming at Weakpoints with a Precision Weapon doesn't really get very far ahead if whoever is using BoltorP has even extremely basic knowledge of how to use a Firearm, and is also shooting things in Weakpoints. you could argue it's higher, but it's not higher by very much. and the other choice is something that usually shoots atleast 2x as often or even 4x as often, and hits almost exactly as accurately.

 

this is basically the same exact types of arguments that happened with Soma, except now we have something that doesn't rely on Crits and yet does more Damage per shot despite it.

 

 

Weapons without a downside, or something it doesn't do well, kind've removes any personality a Weapon could possibly have. what you have instead of a Weapon, is a controlled death machine. it's normally said that people kill people, not guns - but in BoltorP's case, since it's a magic universe with stats, BoltorP does the killing for you, you're just carrying it around.

 

 

What I'm trying to say is things like Latron and Paris far outperform what the calculator tells you. The calculator assumes you are pointing and clicking and hitting the body. It doesn't show off things like status DoTs or Procs. For example, I don't mod all DPS for Boltor Prime, I use things like Malignant Force to amplify it's status, because to me, having armor reducing capabilities increases my DPS in the long run. Does the calculator accurately portray this? No.

but just think, because something like BoltorP has no downsides, if you want Corrosive or Viral Effects or w/e, just shoot a few shots in the general direction of the Enemy. i'd probably bet a finger that you got one of the Effects you wanted. and it took the same time if not less than the Precision Weapon to do the same thing.

 

infact, on that Precision Weapon, since Status isn't completely reliable, the Spray Cannon has a better chance of getting that Status Effect you need than the Precision Weapon does. you have one shot with a higher Chance for... A Status Effect. while the Spray Cannon fires a bunch of lead with a moderate Chance for a Status Effect across a volley of Chances.

 

the Precision Weapon can definitely have higher DoT potential, but... those DoT's absolutely don't outdamage the Weapon itself. the Damage you get is nice to have, but even with a Sniper Rifle, say, a Fire Effect, is probably only going to DoT for 1000 Damage, on an Enemy without Armor. which does make for a nice extra 8000 Damage, but the Spray Cannon could just as easily get half a dozen or a dozen of the same Effect, getting smaller Damages much more often.

 

 

like is being said, no downsides. at all. only general superiority to more Precision Weapons.

[fatpig84]

1 more point to add its that if 4 corrosive projections are factored in, Boltor Prime wins by far.

Since nothing reduces it's damage, it will be dealing full damage to everything and anything.

 

The only thing holding it back will be ammo.

But I know of people who run with 100+ ammo restores, hoping they run out is a folly, at best.

 

Dread and Paris Prime might pack better damage per arrow but you will not be able to line up to hit 3 to 4 targets consistently without wasted damage potential.

Edited September 1, 2014 by fatpig84

[Mesyra]

 

-snip-

 

Cos it is a weapon that can get nearly 40k burst DPS before even factoring in bonuses.

DE has to give it some down sides.

 

its not able to get higher than 34k DPS, and thats with a speed trigger so ammo economy gets pretty bad. I've got 4 forma on mine and hit 32k DPS, I need to max out my serration. 9/10. and that is with critical and status factored.

[Azawarau]

This thread ._.

[Lost_Cartographer]

The Boltor Prime's only and justifiable flaw is that one can't really mod it for anything but raw damage, plus fast hands/magazine warp if they really feel like it...  So it's kind of boring to mod out.

 

Well, okay, 10% status I'd say is actually pretty darn good.  It's not a Grakata, but 10% can still go pretty far with status chance mods.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Littleman88

[Marthrym]

You do realize that a Boltor Prime with even mods reaches 59.7% proc chance, riiiiiiiiight?^^'

I mean sure, the downside is less direct elemental damage with event mods, but if you want more procs then it's not bad. Although we don't have any control over which procs we get... not so useful physical procs messing with us...

Edited October 8, 2014 by Marthrym

[Aciaj613]

"Boltor Prime DPS debate 2014..."

 

 

Nah I'm jokin.

 

 

But seriously why does it seem like there is so much fighting about this weapon?

[Azawarau]

The Boltor Prime's only and justifiable flaw is that one can't really mod it for anything but raw damage, plus fast hands/magazine warp if they really feel like it...  So it's kind of boring to mod out.

 

Well, okay, 10% status I'd say is actually pretty darn good.  It's not a Grakata, but 10% can still go pretty far with status chance mods.

Not needing to mod for crit or status can be seen as an advantage as well

 

Aside from grineer this hardly factors in when you consider the extreme damage output it has