Melee Stance Mod Stat Rework (Multi-Hit/multi-Shot In Place Of Additional Mod Capacity)

[(PSN)MrNishi]

How about a change to Stance Mods being a multi-hit modifier instead of an Aura-like additional mod slots polarity.

Maximum for a max rank in a matching polarity is 10 for a stance - currently. How about instead of 10 additional mod capacity that becomes 100% multi-hit(melee multi-shot)

We don't really have high level melee mods that warranted a boost in melee capacity.

As it is currently there is not much benefit to multi forma melee weapons. Basically just potato and possibly match the Stance polarity for all the mod capacity you need for your melee mods.

Multi-hit does not have to count towards combo count nor as consuming channeling hits. So every single melee weapon would have a chance to hit twice as often as what they do currently and there would be incentive for players to possibly put a forma or 2 into their preferred melee weapons.

(Perhaps stealth attacks will actually kill the enemy on the first try...LOL)

EDIT: To promote combo usage, the Multi-shot would only apply to melee attacks performed in stance. So Glaive/Ketsrel would deal twice the damage when thrown in equipped vs unequipped. (*Multi-shot would apply to prompted Stealth finishers whether melee is equipped or unequipped (in or out of 'Stance'))

Or just add Multi-shot to the stance bonus in addition to the mod capacity bonus, with the Multi-shot not applying to 'quick-fire' melee....

Edited September 27, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[xkillo32]

would make dual ichors way more op

[(PSN)MrNishi]

LOL or Dakra Prime or Serro....etc (Cleaving Whirlwind spin on level 100 enemies.. yeah)

But people would need to forma the melee weapons to fit the usual melee maximization mods.

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[XenosInfinity]

I'm quite happy not having multistrike for melee if it means I don't have to forma all my weapons twice to be able to mod them properly. I'm already sick of grinding out sensors and cells for the blasted things.

[fatpig84]

Instead of something that unwieldy, let the combo meter last for at least 8 seconds.

That will work.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Instead of something that unwieldy, let the combo meter last for at least 8 seconds.

That will work.

How would a melee multi-shot be unwieldy?

So your suggestion is to replace the melee mod capacity provided by stances with just allowing the combo meter to last for 8 seconds? (Extending the combo duration still would not fix a Stealth attack or Finisher not 'finishing' an enemy - if it were your first melee attack.)

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[fatpig84]

The idea about combo was to compensate for the lack of multi-shot on melee, but execution was poor because combos dry up too quickly.

While gun MS is not affected by how much hits you do.

 

So if we can keep combos lasting longer, you have the same effect of MS or even more.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

The idea about combo was to compensate for the lack of multi-shot on melee, but execution was poor because combos dry up too quickly.

While gun MS is not affected by how much hits you do.

So if we can keep combos lasting longer, you have the same effect of MS or even more.

Not quite the same as Multi-shot. Combo counter does not affect the damage on Stealth finishers or on prompted finisher attacks.

Also the combo count needed to equal 100% multi-shot with a 2.0 multiplier or 15-44hits; would need a hit combo of 1215hits for a 4.0 multiplier.

From the wiki (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_2.0)

- The Damage Multiplier starts at 1.5X the weapon's base damage after five consecutive hits. The multiplier is increased by +.5X after achieving three times the number of hits of the previous multiplier, i.e. 15 consecutive hits yield a 2X Damage Multiplier, 45 consecutive hits yield 2.5X Damage, 135 hits yield 3X Damage, 405 hits yield 3.5x etc.

- Currently there no known limit to the Damage Multiplier, thus it's theoretically possible to attain massive damage multiplier numbers of 5X or more. In practice, the number of possible consecutive hits is limited by the number of enemies, their durability, and the player's skill at connecting combos to other enemies.

- The Combo Counter does not increase the damage of prompted stealth attacks or prompted finisher attacks.

So extending the length of time to connect combos is not equal to Multi-shot.

Also, Continuous fire weapons due to the delay of the 'non-visible' damage ticks being displayed as a single burst number. If they reverted Continuous fire weapons back to a 'fountian' of small you could see when you are missing hits on a target. As it is currently the longer you are able to hold the beam on target the more damage you deal with multi-shot, but you do not get verification that every ammo unit dispelled by that beam actually dealt damage on the target. (You cannot speed up the delayed damage....continuous weapons just display damage on a per second basis)

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Jinryusai]

How would a melee multi-shot be unwieldy?

So your suggestion is to replace the melee mod capacity provided by stances with just allowing the combo meter to last for 8 seconds? (Extending the combo duration still would not fix a Stealth attack or Finisher not 'finishing' an enemy - if it were your first melee attack.)

Does not look unwieldy at all :)

Edited September 26, 2014 by Jinryusai

[TankHunter678]

I would prefer if multi-hit was brought in as a new series of mods. As it is I would not really use stance mods if they did not increase mod capacity as combos waste more time being fancy then being efficient. With only a few exceptions.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I would prefer if multi-hit was brought in as a new series of mods. As it is I would not really use stance mods if they did not increase mod capacity as combos waste more time being fancy then being efficient. With only a few exceptions.

If Multi-shot was only applied to equipped melee - would just remove a stance slot and use the non-stance combos to utilize Multi-shot?

The only way I can see stance equipped surpassing Quick-fire is if equipped-melee has access to Multi-shot and quick-fire does not.

Apparently people really don't want to use forma for melee....

What if stance mods also added Multi-shot in addition to the current mod capacity increase, but the Multi-shot only applies prompted finishers and melee-equipped stance attacks?

Edited September 27, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Azawarau]

Itd be a straight buff

 

Forma can replace slots

 

Im benched on whether its good or not because of this

 

Theres no downside at all except punishing players that tend to go without a stance

[TankHunter678]

If Multi-shot was only applied to equipped melee - would just remove a stance slot and use the non-stance combos to utilize Multi-shot?

The only way I can see stance equipped surpassing Quick-fire is if equipped-melee has access to Multi-shot and quick-fire does not.

Apparently people really don't want to use forma for melee....

What if stance mods also added Multi-shot in addition to the current mod capacity increase, but the Multi-shot only applies prompted finishers and melee-equipped stance attacks?

The reason people do not use stance combos (despite equipping the stance) is because most of them just have you "being cool" when things are already dead or out of reach. This is why people mash quick melee instead. It gets the thing killed quickly without having to then waste time pulling the weapon back out since all you have to do is... stop hitting quick melee and pull the trigger.

 

If you want people using combos then really the stances should be to simplified so the "combos" are by situation, letting us use horizontal slashes when we need them and vertical slashes when we need them, let us use thrusts and dashes when we need them. Less twirling about being fancy, more based on how we read the situation so that when we combo they are player created combos made according to the situation.

 

Or in other words, the stances should be attack inputs and we make the combos. Not prefab combos that would have place in a beat em up sidescroller. Dynamic combos would be a far better system for warframe.

 

 

Now the reason why we want stances to retain their mod capacity boost is that melee weapons kinda need that extra capacity to help allow them to compete with ranged weapons. Not that we want to use less formas, its that baseline ranged weapons are superior to melee to begin with and they need a boost to help them up.

 

If you merge multi-hit with the stance mod letting it keep the capacity increase that can be seen as giving too much strength for no cost. After all, think of how much mod points a ranged weapon uses for its multishot. Better to have multi-hit be its own mod set with a cost.

[GSDAkatsuki]

I don't think multi hit melee should be a mod. I think that should be an Excalibur ability to really cement him as the sword master. The his ability will create a shadow like hollow gram behind him that does the extra damage. This also works to another advantage of doubling his combo rate as the hologram ' s damage counts. The combo chain number could then be used to amplify the damage of his slash dash and javelin attacks.

Edited September 27, 2014 by GSDAkatsuki

[Azawarau]

The reason people do not use stance combos (despite equipping the stance) is because most of them just have you "being cool" when things are already dead or out of reach. This is why people mash quick melee instead. It gets the thing killed quickly without having to then waste time pulling the weapon back out since all you have to do is... stop hitting quick melee and pull the trigger.

 

If you want people using combos then really the stances should be to simplified so the "combos" are by situation, letting us use horizontal slashes when we need them and vertical slashes when we need them, let us use thrusts and dashes when we need them. Less twirling about being fancy, more based on how we read the situation so that when we combo they are player created combos made according to the situation.

 

Or in other words, the stances should be attack inputs and we make the combos. Not prefab combos that would have place in a beat em up sidescroller. Dynamic combos would be a far better system for warframe.

 

 

Now the reason why we want stances to retain their mod capacity boost is that melee weapons kinda need that extra capacity to help allow them to compete with ranged weapons. Not that we want to use less formas, its that baseline ranged weapons are superior to melee to begin with and they need a boost to help them up.

 

If you merge multi-hit with the stance mod letting it keep the capacity increase that can be seen as giving too much strength for no cost. After all, think of how much mod points a ranged weapon uses for its multishot. Better to have multi-hit be its own mod set with a cost.

Equipping melee has a few advantages

 

Combo multiplier and channeling are the most notable

 

When you can get a good chain going you can outdamage even top tier weapons with melee

 

I run a pure utility build and outdo the boltor prime regularly without using a single forma on my main melee weapon

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I understand quick-fire builds still complementing 'Gun Heavy' Gameplay.

But I feel if Multi-shot mods worked with 'Quick-fire' then there would be even less of an incentive to utilize stance combos. With that in mind, making Multi-shot tied to the stance bonus seemed logical.

The capacity buff - basically rendered forma for melee obsolete especially since melee does not have high cost capacity or Rank 10 mods. Seemingly it appears people do not want to lose the mod capacity at all.

So stances are only being used as a forma mod-capacity upgrade and if Multi-shot is a mod it would benefit 'Quick-fire' and further hamper Stance-equipped combos.

- limited mod slots which if using stance combos usually revolves around slotting some Channeling type mods whether it be Life Strike, Quickening, or some damage oriented mods. (But quick-fire melee does not need channeling mods and thus would benefit from a Multi-shot mod not needing to replace a stance-combo boosting channeling mod.)

(Also with the current mod-capacity boost- what is the real advantage of weapons that come with polarized slots over a weapon that has no polarities?)

[TankHunter678]

I understand quick-fire builds still complementing 'Gun Heavy' Gameplay.

But I feel if Multi-shot mods worked with 'Quick-fire' then there would be even less of an incentive to utilize stance combos. With that in mind, making Multi-shot tied to the stance bonus seemed logical.

The capacity buff - basically rendered forma for melee obsolete especially since melee does not have high cost capacity or Rank 10 mods. Seemingly it appears people do not want to lose the mod capacity at all.

So stances are only being used as a forma mod-capacity upgrade and if Multi-shot is a mod it would benefit 'Quick-fire' and further hamper Stance-equipped combos.

- limited mod slots which if using stance combos usually revolves around slotting some Channeling type mods whether it be Life Strike, Quickening, or some damage oriented mods. (But quick-fire melee does not need channeling mods and thus would benefit from a Multi-shot mod not needing to replace a stance-combo boosting channeling mod.)

(Also with the current mod-capacity boost- what is the real advantage of weapons that come with polarized slots over a weapon that has no polarities?)

Melee still needs to forma in order to put more elementals on to keep up damage wise, especially for those unfortunate enough to not get the cold dual stat mods from the cryotic event. As melee cold and electric damage mods are 11 points for 60%, dual stat mods are more efficient point wise. Melee also requires attack speed in order to counterbalance spoiled strike, since that is going to be half of your damage.

 

The reason why most people do not really use stances for the combos is as I keep repeating:

 

Outside of a few combos they are nothing more then a waste of time of you flailing about "being cool" rather then being efficient.

 

Crimson Dervish would be one of the few stances to benefit from multi-hit more then quick melee. After all it would basically be producing essentially 600% attacks, aside from that however most stances just plain suck.

 

If Stances were not a bunch of flashy combos and rather provided us a way to create our own combos by providing inputs not as locked down as quick melee then they might become worthwhile since then we would be able to use them according to the situation.

 

Hell, charge attacks were more useful then stances are and multi-hit would of been useful for letting normal attacks keep up with charge attacks.

[Zero.No.Hikari]

The only weapons I can see having multi hit would be single and dual daggers and maybe dual swords. Why? Well think of it this way a single dagger is currently bad due to having lost their speed which they should be on top of. Dual dagger still have it but a lot slower a boost in speed would make it better and a bit more fluid. Dual swords are a maybe but any other weapon would not seem good for since multi hit implies that we swing it twice quickly unless its a shadow stricken which then means dual daggers hit 6 times per press.

[GSDAkatsuki]

Melee still needs to forma in order to put more elementals on to keep up damage wise, especially for those unfortunate enough to not get the cold dual stat mods from the cryotic event. As melee cold and electric damage mods are 11 points for 60%, dual stat mods are more efficient point wise. Melee also requires attack speed in order to counterbalance spoiled strike, since that is going to be half of your damage.

The reason why most people do not really use stances for the combos is as I keep repeating:

Outside of a few combos they are nothing more then a waste of time of you flailing about "being cool" rather then being efficient.

Crimson Dervish would be one of the few stances to benefit from multi-hit more then quick melee. After all it would basically be producing essentially 600% attacks, aside from that however most stances just plain suck.

If Stances were not a bunch of flashy combos and rather provided us a way to create our own combos by providing inputs not as locked down as quick melee then they might become worthwhile since then we would be able to use them according to the situation.

Hell, charge attacks were more useful then stances are and multi-hit would of been useful for letting normal attacks keep up with charge attacks.

This guy gets it. Melee in this game is all flash but no utility. Whips should have larger range and grab people and pull them into you. Aegis shield actually needs to be a shield that blocks damage for free and then use charge ram attacks to knockdown. Fists and feet should have like divekicks, claws should have berserker barrage. There's no launchers to throw enemies in the air to disable and combo them. Dual swords don't have a charged ranged air slash attack.

Let's not to mention the melee input is the least intuitive system inputted in gaming to date. All you need is 1 light attack and 1 heavy attack and you are set for real combos.

And the stamina system is god awful. It limits your melee and your mobility. You are stuck chasing enemie s most of the time.

Edited September 27, 2014 by GSDAkatsuki

[Mesyra]

they could always give us a ghosting ability like in the new shadows of mordor game

http://youtu.be/-OOd1SrDDH0?t=1m56s

this would look pretty cool as something that triggers with a combo chain or on crit/status proc.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I don't recall saying Stance was better than quick-fire. I tjought my aiggestion was to give a better incentive to uae Stance over Quick-fire. I guess there is no way for stances to be improved over quick-fire.

Even if Whips had a move to pull the enemy to showcase utility- others would still arguue it as being 'flashy' and less efficient as quick-fire melee.

Light and Heavy attack was pretty much melee 1.0. Although I do agree he melee input is not the best, Charge attacks could have remained as reload with melee equipped and finisher promots could have been reload+attack (activates ground finisher when no finisher prompt present). Due to cross-platform controls I could see why light horizontal, heavy horizontal, light vertical, and heavy vertical were not individual inputs.

It seems that DE and the player base do not see melee as the same thing, but the recent posts suggest Melee 2.0 should not get tweaked but instead a complete overhaul- removing the stances and everything.

I feel some of the player base will never see melee as beneficial due to the inherent lack of Range. The timeless Gun vs. Sword argument.

With the response shown where people say they want charge attacks back, if charge attacks were only usable with melee equipped, it seems people would still say why bother when quick-fire is more efficient than putting one's gun away.

Melee Multi-shot could always be like a phantom hit/slash, but I was hoping it could be a benefit of actually having melee equipped and not use able with quick-fire, sort-of like Life Strike or any other channeling mods and matching stances with max fusion could be a way of showing that mastery of a melee weapon.

DE has been constantly reducing melee attack speed. Melee 2.0 lowered a number of melee weapon's attack speed & Fury has been getting slower boosts every time it is touched. Going from a 90% boost to 60% to the current 30% boost. It does not appear that DE wants fast melee attacks, but that seems to be the largest complaint about Stance speed vs quick-fire. I don't know how DE is going to make that better by continually slowing melee down.

I guess I'll have to just wait until Stances are scrapped, quick-fire is removed, or DE reinvents melee again...

[Azawarau]

Speed mods and combo meter along with soem CC

 

Youll outdo all but the best guns on mediocre melee frames if you can survive

 

On melee frames you can compete even with the mighty boltor prime but youll have to watch yourself carefully

[Paradoxbomb]

Meh, personally I'd prefer if we could move away from the concept of multi-shot (it's not a very good/balanced mechanic IMO) so I'd have to say no to adding it to melee as well as guns. Besides, melee does good enough damage as is, it's just very clunky and could use some improvement with regards to stamina, channeling, combos (actually, pretty much everything Melee 2.0 related besides the damage is what needs work really).

Edited September 29, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Meh, personally I'd prefer if we could move away from the concept of multi-shot (it's not a very good/balanced mechanic IMO) so I'd have to say no to adding it to melee as well as guns. Besides, melee does good enough damage as is, it's just very clunky and could use some improvement with regards to stamina, channeling, combos (actually, pretty much everything Melee 2.0 related besides the damage is what needs work really).

Melee Multi-shot is already present in some stance combos: more damage attacks land than what register as landed attacks for the combo chain. If they would revert those landed attacks as contributing to the combo counter that would be different. But that would also mean AOE swings should register every hit towards the combo count.

Brutal tide's 1st attack is a multi-hit lunge attack, but it only registers as a single attack on the combo count.

Dual-Daggers hit like 3 times per registered combo count.

My original objective was to create an innate advantage to using Stance equipped melee over Quick-Fire. From the reaponses I gathered that people don't want stance combos to have an advantage over quick-fire. Either a full meleenoverhaul or if Multi-shot did come it should be applied to both quick-fire and Stance equipped melee meaning no adavatage to stance fighting.... Which is fine, I still happily play the game.