Thoughts On Ember Ability Rework

[SandwitchPrime]

ok so i started this game when founders pack was still a thing, so im sort of a experienced player...i think, now i have talked about ember before, but those were just complaints so im posting a new one with actual suggestions :D

 

now before i do this, i have 0 experience with designing games, or anything, so if you try this and fail dont blame me for it

k lets get on to it

 

ability 1:Fireball------nice AOE and proc pluse some DoT, but the problems are that fire DoT deals close to no dmg on higher levels, so apart form that, it's fine

 

ability 2:Accelerant------so the first time i see this ability, my reaction was 'we lost freaken over heat for this?' now dont get me wrong, this is a nice dmg spell for ember and all but it takes away every single defensive ability she has, and that just sucks, it doesnt even work as a panic button for its 20m range is way smaller than the shooting range of an average enemy.

 

New name:wall of fire or something i suck at naming.

combine accelerant with fireblast and Volt's shield(sorta), when you shoot the fireball or bullet through the wall of fire(not to be confused with a firewall)  it strengthens their dmg and proc chance, and turn what ever effect the weapon already has into fire.(it's gonna be a bit hard to make i think, but you'll handle it)

 

as we all know the biggest characteristic of fire is DoT, but ember seems to have more burst that constant DPS, this should probably fix it and make her fit the theme  more.

 

ability 3:fire blast------first lets all agree on the fact that this ability is nothing but a beautifully visualized piece of crap, i mean come on like you didn't know that already(no offence to who ever designed it).so this calls for change

 

New name:obsidian crust

I loved overheat so i thought i might just bring this up

forms an overheated obsidian crust on her body, gaining temporary protection and speed, it should last no more than 10 seconds and once it expires, BOOM.

 

what creats a lot of fire and heat? bombs! and what's more badass than turning your self into one :D

 

ability 4:WoF-------her signature move, it's not a bad ability, but since ember has really slow running speed, she cant use it all that well. 

 

Fire storm

This one is similar to Ruk's Fire blast, she creats a mini sun and slams it down, knocking back every body and setting them on fire at the same time......that should do

 

 

sooo anyways, here's my crappy plan im sure you guys can think of better ones or improve on this come on stop being lazy and do something about her

[Domaik]

Me persobally as a part time pyromaniac (lol!) i think ember right now is perfect she's designed to be an offensive warframe if you want defensive frames there are quite a few you know...

I mean to me an all the games that I know fire is seen as treated as an offensive element. And i think ember being full dps and having no defense skills fits her very well

Oh and have you ever seen the damage accelerant +a nice modded ignis can do?? You'd be surprised to see some of the so called best dps weapons be thrown into the dirt...

Edited September 29, 2014 by Domaik

[_Fracture8]

Oh and have you ever seen the damage accelerant +a nice modded ignis can do?? You'd be surprised to see some of the so called best dps weapons be thrown into the dirt...

 

I peronally feel that a frame that requires a weapon and a specific build to tap into late game is useless : / whats the point in playing a frame when you're gonna be stuck using the same weapon 50% of the time just to make yourself feel stronger. Also she does need a defensive ability, her squishiness is really clear when in t3/4.

 

EDIT: Firestorm and Obsidian crust sound really cool, though the explosion at the end of Obsidian crust should be the main selling point, not the DR it provides. The DR should be used as a way to get into the centre of a crowd to maximise the explosion.

 

EDIT 2: Also WoF MUST HAVE a stun feature on the explosions. I have no idea why a geyser of fire doesn't knock anyone over, but it should be a thing

Edited September 29, 2014 by KilelrDrone492

[BoneBreakerx]

ability 4:WoF-------her signature move, it's not a bad ability, but since ember has really slow running speed, she cant use it all that well. 

running? who runs in this game?

use you coptoring/frontflip

 

what i hate about WoF is the new animation... the older one was way better...

[Boricua_Knight52]

Bring back overheat and the old WoF animation and i will love using ember again.

[Malikon]

Overheat was a terrible bandaid skill for people who couldn't figure out how to not get dead.  Overheat is gone, please let it stay that way as it served no purpose other than making Ember players lazy.

 

More CC capability and increased run speed feel more right for Ember to me than any damage reduction.

[SandwitchPrime]

Me persobally as a part time pyromaniac (lol!) i think ember right now is perfect she's designed to be an offensive warframe if you want defensive frames there are quite a few you know...

I mean to me an all the games that I know fire is seen as treated as an offensive element. And i think ember being full dps and having no defense skills fits her very well

Oh and have you ever seen the damage accelerant +a nice modded ignis can do?? You'd be surprised to see some of the so called best dps weapons be thrown into the dirt...

maybe you didnt hear me quite clearly, i never intended to make ember a tank, all im saying is that every single frame should have at least one, ONE, ability to save themselves, ember is both slow and squishy, so she needs those abilities more than anyone.

and dont say the 20m stun we all know it never works as a panic button....really if you get that close to your enemies you deserve to die

[SandwitchPrime]

Overheat was a terrible bandaid skill for people who couldn't figure out how to not get dead.  Overheat is gone, please let it stay that way as it served no purpose other than making Ember players lazy.

 

More CC capability and increased run speed feel more right for Ember to me than any damage reduction.

ok, tell me how awesome you are and how you were surviving with nothing but a slow &#! ult and ministun while using a slow squishy warframe in the middle of a crowd with 4 lv 40's machine gun fireing at you none stop, coz that's how the game is right now.

Me persobally as a part time pyromaniac (lol!) i think ember right now is perfect she's designed to be an offensive warframe if you want defensive frames there are quite a few you know...

I mean to me an all the games that I know fire is seen as treated as an offensive element. And i think ember being full dps and having no defense skills fits her very well

Oh and have you ever seen the damage accelerant +a nice modded ignis can do?? You'd be surprised to see some of the so called best dps weapons be thrown into the dirt...

DPS? senn a valkyr with dual ichor and warcry?

[SandwitchPrime]

I peronally feel that a frame that requires a weapon and a specific build to tap into late game is useless : / whats the point in playing a frame when you're gonna be stuck using the same weapon 50% of the time just to make yourself feel stronger. Also she does need a defensive ability, her squishiness is really clear when in t3/4.

 

EDIT: Firestorm and Obsidian crust sound really cool, though the explosion at the end of Obsidian crust should be the main selling point, not the DR it provides. The DR should be used as a way to get into the centre of a crowd to maximise the explosion.

 

EDIT 2: Also WoF MUST HAVE a stun feature on the explosions. I have no idea why a geyser of fire doesn't knock anyone over, but it should be a thing

so far WoF looks more like hot spring squirts......and it's annoying trying to aim with pillars of light showing off it's beautiful effects in your face....so i thought to replace it with fire storm to give her more CC and give ruk some credit

[Malikon]

ok, tell me how awesome you are and how you were surviving with nothing but a slow @$$ ult and ministun while using a slow squishy warframe in the middle of a crowd with 4 lv 40's machine gun fireing at you none stop, coz that's how the game is right now.

Perhaps by being smarter than running into the middle of a group of level 40 machine gunners. What happened to using guns, accelerant, and 4k fireballs to thin out the crowd?  WoF?  Dont have it slotted, dont need it.

[Undrakh]

i would love to have OLD embers WoF REALLY. Current one just doesnt feels right. and about her lack of defense maybe adding little more armor and movement speed would fix it i think. i really dont get how DE thinks sometimes. i mean Valkyr has 600 armor and invincibility skill + life steal while Ember Mag Volt such frames have 15 armor point??? 

[SandwitchPrime]

Perhaps by being smarter than running into the middle of a group of level 40 machine gunners. What happened to using guns, accelerant, and 4k fireballs to thin out the crowd?  WoF?  Dont have it slotted, dont need it.

in survival and defence missions where enemies spawn at every direction, how to not get surrounded by enemies would be the question,it doesnt even have to be a machine gunner, just 2 random corrupted grineer can kill you within seconds, and the place is bloody covered by them.

using guns, do you use explosives in T4 missions coz i dont, and as far as i know no gun can kill 4 heavy gunners faster than they can kill you

accelerant, ok now you are being funny, a bloody 3 second 20 meter stun aint even enough for ember to drag her &#! out of the enemies shooting range

here's the thing about pure dmg frames, as the enemy level gets higher, they get more and more useless, and that's not just ember, that's everyone, (except for maybe ash), that's why you see CC frames like rhino nyx and loki ruling the high level maps. because most of their abilities takes effect despite target's level, and that's something DE needs to fix and srsly, at least change the ability 3, it's a piece of crap and shouldnt exist

Edited October 2, 2014 by Tol853147920

[SandwitchPrime]

i would love to have OLD embers WoF REALLY. Current one just doesnt feels right. and about her lack of defense maybe adding little more armor and movement speed would fix it i think. i really dont get how DE thinks sometimes. i mean Valkyr has 600 armor and invincibility skill + life steal while Ember Mag Volt such frames have 15 armor point??? 

well, mag has a badass 1000+ shield when maxed and is able to recharge, and volt has super speed along with a bullet proof shield, they both come with AOEdmg, but valkyr has none of that. despite her having one of the greatest single target DPS she has no aoe dmg.

armor doesnt help ember at all considering how many mods she would need to fit in the ability range ,power ,effiency and duration(which is another design fail coz she would be the only one who needs all of these stats)mods, there is barely any room for health mods and ember has a small health pool anyways armor wont help much

[LasersGoPewPew]

i'd love the kit suggestions to come to fruition.... would give her more tankiness in late game. and who's ever heard of a mage archetype character  that HAS NO DEFENSIVE ABILITY? ITS' A NECESSITY FOR SQUISHY ANYTHING TO SURVIVE IN 99% OF GAMES.

[Malikon]

in survival and defence missions where enemies spawn at every direction, how to not get surrounded by enemies would be the question,it doesnt even have to be a machine gunner, just 2 random corrupted grineer can kill you within seconds, and the place is bloody covered by them.

using guns, do you use explosives in T4 missions coz i dont, and as far as i know no gun can kill 4 heavy gunners faster than they can kill you

accelerant, ok now you are being funny, a bloody 3 second 20 meter stun aint even enough for ember to drag her @$$ out of the enemies shooting range

here's the thing about pure dmg frames, as the enemy level gets higher, they get more and more useless, and that's not just ember, that's everyone, (except for maybe ash), that's why you see CC frames like rhino nyx and loki ruling the high level maps. because most of their abilities takes effect despite target's level, and that's something DE needs to fix and srsly, at least change the ability 3, it's a piece of crap and shouldnt exist

No, fortunately I'm not being funny.  It works out just fine if you stay mobile and pay a lot of attention to your surroundings (and dont try to solo 40+ minutes). 

 

As far as the guns I use, I alternate between Dread, Ignis, whatever shotgun I feel like at the time, or an assault rifle that I pick based on the difficulty of the mission (I tend towards Braton V for anything less than lv35 or so).  For sidearms, if I'm screwing around in lower level content I'll usually be levelling this or that or playing around with Lato V.  For higher level content, I'll throw on a 4 forma Akmagnus.  Scoliac is always the melee weapon because coptering.

 

I dont do a lot of high wave defenses or 45m+ survivals because I generally get bored way too easily for that, but for everything else Accelerant works out really well.

 

You and I do agree on one thing, that Fireblast and possibly WoF needs to be updated to reconcile the "hole" in her kit.  I've never disagreed that she needed something more to be complete, but I feel it should be a high grade CC and a movement speed increase instead of a flat damage reduction.  It has been my experience that Overheat basically made people lazy because they didnt have to really give a damn if anything was shooting them.  It took out all sense of urgency for target acquisition and removal and basically just let the player walk around with impuny.  I dont really believe that the ability to be oblivious and survive is healthy for any frame, referencing why iron skin was nerfed so long ago and why snowglobe and blessing were changed the way they were.

 

On the subject of high grade CC and changing Fireblast, Fireblast could be ok if they made it like the one the Eximii have and allow the wall to be like an expanding 360 degree shield that knocks the mobs down and pushes them away while blocking incoming fire.

 

PS.  Please add a run speed increase and guarenteed blast and/or ignite proc onto World On Fire.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Malikon

[SandwitchPrime]

No, fortunately I'm not being funny.  It works out just fine if you stay mobile and pay a lot of attention to your surroundings (and dont try to solo 40+ minutes). 

 

As far as the guns I use, I alternate between Dread, Ignis, whatever shotgun I feel like at the time, or an assault rifle that I pick based on the difficulty of the mission (I tend towards Braton V for anything less than lv35 or so).  For sidearms, if I'm screwing around in lower level content I'll usually be levelling this or that or playing around with Lato V.  For higher level content, I'll throw on a 4 forma Akmagnus.  Scoliac is always the melee weapon because coptering.

 

I dont do a lot of high wave defenses or 45m+ survivals because I generally get bored way too easily for that, but for everything else Accelerant works out really well.

 

You and I do agree on one thing, that Fireblast and possibly WoF needs to be updated to reconcile the "hole" in her kit.  I've never disagreed that she needed something more to be complete, but I feel it should be a high grade CC and a movement speed increase instead of a flat damage reduction.  It has been my experience that Overheat basically made people lazy because they didnt have to really give a damn if anything was shooting them.  It took out all sense of urgency for target acquisition and removal and basically just let the player walk around with impuny.  I dont really believe that the ability to be oblivious and survive is healthy for any frame, referencing why iron skin was nerfed so long ago and why snowglobe and blessing were changed the way they were.

 

On the subject of high grade CC and changing Fireblast, Fireblast could be ok if they made it like the one the Eximii have and allow the wall to be like an expanding 360 degree shield that knocks the mobs down and pushes them away while blocking incoming fire.

 

PS.  Please add a run speed increase and guarenteed blast and/or ignite proc onto World On Fire.

and again, there's my point, she cant do 40min survivals, which means when against any enemy above the level of 50 is a big problem, and in terms of balance that's just not right, this is a co-op game and ive played a lot of other co-op games, but a lot of people thinks its a moba, the difference in moba and co-op games are that though co-op games have characters that focuses more on support, take any of them out and use them, try to solo any dungeon, and you can do it, if one frame can do 40 min survivals, all of them should be able to.

your fireblast idea would be the same as my firestorm.........

overheat turns people lazy-----not true,my valkyr's warcry makes her ignor up to 50%of all damage to her health and yet big chunks of her health goes down when shot by a T4 corrupted grineer, same thing happends to mirages's DR

DR is lazy? look at the design of ash loki and nova, making enemies completely unable to do dmg to them is even lazier.

extra credit covered this once, for new players there must be something strong and easier to use, something that has nearly the same dmg and utility as the higher leveled stuff but being much easier to use, but as soon as they are able to master the harder stuff,  they will move on, rhino is a good example, but rhino alone doesnt cover up this games infamous way to treat new players. 2 of  the player's starting frame was the 2 weakest.......idk what DE was thinking but that is a really bad idea

[Malikon]

Ash and Loki are still very able to have damage done to them.  They're invisible, not invincible.  Bullets still hurt them just as bad and crossfire is a very easy thing to get caught up in.

 

And 50% damage reduction on a tank frame that is melee-centric is not over 90% damage reduction on a caster frame that is supposed to be drive-by damage.  So yes, DR on Ember is lazy in my experience.  It becomes central to the statement because Ember isnt supposed to constantly be in melee range of everything all the time, she should be mobile and constantly in and out to avoid getting creamed.  Valkyr was designed to be able to get up in and stay in mobs' faces until someone is dead.

 

Here is the elephant in the room in our debate, is 40m+ survivals and endless defense in T4 what all gameplay should be balanced around?  I dont think it is because I believe that the endless scaling content to lv9999 isnt the intended endgame, it is just something that the super hardcore folks choose to do because they've had the time to do everything else they wanted.  You showed compassion for how the new players are treated and that is commendable, how will they be treated if all frames are scaled for HWD and 40+ T4 survivals?   They'll not be challenged and learn anything playing the game until they get to the end of it.

 

Not having anything resembling an endgame is what is the really bad idea here.

[SandwitchPrime]

Ash and Loki are still very able to have damage done to them.  They're invisible, not invincible.  Bullets still hurt them just as bad and crossfire is a very easy thing to get caught up in.

 

And 50% damage reduction on a tank frame that is melee-centric is not over 90% damage reduction on a caster frame that is supposed to be drive-by damage.  So yes, DR on Ember is lazy in my experience.  It becomes central to the statement because Ember isnt supposed to constantly be in melee range of everything all the time, she should be mobile and constantly in and out to avoid getting creamed.  Valkyr was designed to be able to get up in and stay in mobs' faces until someone is dead.

 

Here is the elephant in the room in our debate, is 40m+ survivals and endless defense in T4 what all gameplay should be balanced around?  I dont think it is because I believe that the endless scaling content to lv9999 isnt the intended endgame, it is just something that the super hardcore folks choose to do because they've had the time to do everything else they wanted.  You showed compassion for how the new players are treated and that is commendable, how will they be treated if all frames are scaled for HWD and 40+ T4 survivals?   They'll not be challenged and learn anything playing the game until they get to the end of it.

 

Not having anything resembling an endgame is what is the really bad idea here.

loki and ash do take damage but those damage wasnt targeted at them, so it's extremely easy to get out.

a caster frame, what caster frame, the only frames that can rely purely on their spells for dmg late game anywhere among 35-40 are valkyr and nova, (and maybe mirage)and even if the DR is too much it only deserved a nerf, what DE should have done is to buff the dmg on ember's other spells, nerf DR on overheat instead of giving us a spell so we can do it manually.

not constantly in melee range? her fireball is the only spell she have that reaches further than melee range, all the other ones stays at a radius of 15-20m

T4S and D arent the endgame i agree, but thats all we bloody have. plus this tracks back to the incomplete ability system of the game itself, with atleast 1 or 2 useless spells for each character it hardly seems like DE took this seriously. the power should grow with the character, my suggestion would be that the ability cards have more rooms for further fusion, like how we have that for serration and hornet strike. new players will have weaker versions of the abilities but are able to level them up slowly untill they are good enough to challenge T4 enemies. and this shouldnt be done with fusion cores as we have seen what a pain in the &#! it was to level up serration while they suck up cores like a black hole. it should be done the same way as warframes and weapons, upgraded by simply using them. infact they shouldn't even be mods......

if they wanted to make an ability system they needed to make all of the useful among high levels (20-35), at least at some drgree(looking at you psychic bolts), in terms of ability, this game should be treated as a moba, i know its a shooter but like i said if you wanna do it you need to do it well.

[Malikon]

I saw a couple of threads recently about alternate ability systems or different ways to handle skill scaling.

 

One was posted by Blatantfool, and I dont have a link onhand but it was detailing removing the ability mods from the drop table and warframes and having each of the abilities gain rank (or become usable) based on the rank of your warframe.  Furthermore, it afforded a small skill tree (like 4 or 5 different attributes) for each of the warframe abilities that would allow for customization.  As an example, at rank 30 your warframe would have 30 points to customize its abilities.  A customization point could be applied to increase damage, increase an effect/radius, or add a new effect to a particular ability.  I can provide an example upon request if that explaination wasnt clear enough.

 

Another I saw that stood out to me was in a thread about another subject but DesecratedFlame and I discussed all damage skills gaining a particular amount of scaling damage added to them.  As an example, Embers fireballs would do X static damage plus 1% of the enemy's health.  With MPrime (200%), Roar (75%), and Accelerant (500%) that would make the fireball do +775% of that damage equating to X+(7.75*X) + 1% + 7.75% of the enemy's health.  Not likely overpowered, but with proper modding Ember could machine gun fireballs fairly cheaply and have a reasonable result regardless of what level the mobs are and would likely not require constant tinkering once a good balance was found per damaging ability.\\

 

Thoughts?

[SandwitchPrime]

I saw a couple of threads recently about alternate ability systems or different ways to handle skill scaling.

 

One was posted by Blatantfool, and I dont have a link onhand but it was detailing removing the ability mods from the drop table and warframes and having each of the abilities gain rank (or become usable) based on the rank of your warframe.  Furthermore, it afforded a small skill tree (like 4 or 5 different attributes) for each of the warframe abilities that would allow for customization.  As an example, at rank 30 your warframe would have 30 points to customize its abilities.  A customization point could be applied to increase damage, increase an effect/radius, or add a new effect to a particular ability.  I can provide an example upon request if that explaination wasnt clear enough.

 

Another I saw that stood out to me was in a thread about another subject but DesecratedFlame and I discussed all damage skills gaining a particular amount of scaling damage added to them.  As an example, Embers fireballs would do X static damage plus 1% of the enemy's health.  With MPrime (200%), Roar (75%), and Accelerant (500%) that would make the fireball do +775% of that damage equating to X+(7.75*X) + 1% + 7.75% of the enemy's health.  Not likely overpowered, but with proper modding Ember could machine gun fireballs fairly cheaply and have a reasonable result regardless of what level the mobs are and would likely not require constant tinkering once a good balance was found per damaging ability.\\

 

Thoughts?

add them both together and got a complete(or at least more than it is now) ability system

just to add to that, Nyx 2 wont even work even if they did that.......so fix plz

[Crewell]

I really hate Ember's #2. She is the only frame than needs to use one power to make her other ones good. Why not make her other abilities all function at the higher level and give her a new #2 than does something worthwhile.

[Azawarau]

Accelerant is her defensive option

 

That 20  meters is assuming unmodded as well

 

The skill is spammable and adds tons of damage

 

WoF doesnt need to be another skill

 

It needs to be adjusted other ways

 

And overheat was broken

[Malikon]

I agree overheat was broken, and Accelerant is a nice CC in addition to making her other skills more effective. 

[SandwitchPrime]

I really hate Ember's #2. She is the only frame than needs to use one power to make her other ones good. Why not make her other abilities all function at the higher level and give her a new #2 than does something worthwhile.

exactly what i was saying on my replies before, people dont seem to notice! wtf world?

[SandwitchPrime]

Accelerant is her defensive option

 

That 20  meters is assuming unmodded as well

 

The skill is spammable and adds tons of damage

 

WoF doesnt need to be another skill

 

It needs to be adjusted other ways

 

And overheat was broken

De's design for overheat is obvious, ember is slow and squishy, but overheat gives DR, she needs to run into crowds constantly, so she uses it with overheat, even if it is too strong, the most it deserves is a nerf. now accelerate , the only thing that truly helps on is guns,fireball and casting WoF(maybe killing a few people around you)(and fire blast but come on people), yes it gives you damage, but that's just a poor excuse of not being able to think of a better ability, why can't they just buff up the damage of her other spells instead of giving us this thing and make us do it ourselves? nova's 2 requires us to shoot, that's fine, its an interesting design and the damage is huge,however, wanting us to cast an extra spell just so the other ones can become even slightly usable is just pathetic, it's badly designed, it's unnecessary, and the ability space it took up can have way better uses. put  mine or anyone else's redesign of her 2  in would be much better than simply letting us do the things DE should have done themselves

 

yes it gives damage to bullets, but if you get a banshee(who has the same stats except faster running speed), she can do it much better and wont restrict elemental effects, 250%bonus for your self or 500% bonus for the entire team?and since damage abilities aint all that useful later on in the game, you may as just get a banshee