Dedicated Servers For Fair Pvp

[HiTekRedNek]

 I am a gamer that enjoys all kinds of games; MMOs, RPGs, Shooters, single-players, co-ops, and multiplayer pvps. I really enjoy the multiple aspects that come with playing Warframe, and I have been thinking this through for a while and discussing it with other players that I know and for those of us that enjoy PvP in the Dark Sectors, and even for those that only run them to help support a clan or alliance; one conclusion can be made: to have truly fair PvP, the matches need to be hosted on dedicated servers.

 

 It is far too easy for people to unknowingly, or intentionally gain an advantage in PvP if they or someone they are running with is hosting; or if they know who the host is. People have been doing it since the early days in Ghost Recon and other early shooters, using Lag Switches and other means to sabotage the connections to gain an advantage. I have ran into these issues while on dark sectors many times; and while I want to run the sectors to help support my clan and allaince, it can make it very unappealing to me, who actually enjoys PvP, but for those that solely do it to support their clans or alliances it makes it truly detesting, because they really would rather be doing something else, and now they have to deal with unfair situations.

 

I understand that I am not the first to metion the idea, and I do not say this lightly. I understand what it entails with cost and upkeep, but honestly the cost versus the benefit would truly be game changing, and only for the better. There are 13 Planets with 2 Dark Sectors Each. Even if you limited the number of instances to say 50 per sector (not that that many battles actually go on at a time now), it would only be a total of 1300 instances, and only for 8ppl per instance for a total of 10400 connections. In my opinion 50 is probably a bit overkill; 30 instances per sector would probably be plenty at first (assuming that alot of people might begin to like pvp more with the stable connections), but either way when it comes to the servers themselves, it would not be too difficult or too expensive to set up and maintain the number of servers need to support that kind of load, because lets face it, ten thousand connections is not alot comparatively speaking. The main reason I am bringing this up again, besides the previous reason is the metion of adding the public areas, which I assume would be placed on dedicated servers. So, if you guys are already working on setting up servers for those, it wouldn't be that difficult to go alittle bit further and set up instances for Dark Sectors, and help get rid of the people using their hosting as an advantage, and make it more difficult for people that are spiking hosts and forcing them to DC. 

 

In losing I want to say again, thanks to the devs for all their hard work and that I truly do enjoy the game so far. I enjoyed the stream earlier, and PLEASE get us some more lore lol. 

[Cleesus]

Moving to feedback

[R34LM]

I don't frequent the DS conflicts, but this is a pretty good way to solve some problems. But fair isn't going to be accomplished easily, regardless, as long as the people are using warframes.

[HiTekRedNek]

"Fair PvP"

Sorry but even if we had dedicated servers "Fair PvP" still wouldnt exist.

 

I don't frequent the DS conflicts, but this is a pretty good way to solve some problems. But fair isn't going to be accomplished easily, regardless, as long as the people are using warframes.

 

I can understand how alot of people feel about as far as balance and warframe abilities, especially since two of my favorite frames are Trin and Ash...

I get asked all the time from guys in my alliance how to beat my frames and I try and pull them aside and walk them through some of the more advanced strategies for people that don't know about them. Point is, no matter what the frames are, you can somewhat control how powerful they get if you work together and use some strategy to control how the flow of that Dark Sector match, especially when attacking, defending is a bit more difficult but still doable. The main thing I am concerned with is the use of lag switches, people (deliberately or not) causing host DCs, and just lag in general caused by the use of P2P instances.

Edited October 5, 2014 by HiTekRedNek

[JoeXyo]

pvp in a game that is heavily focused on gear and farm will simply not draw any attention whatsoever, If you have had any experience  in high lvl end arena or pvp in wow you would have know that abilities/gear will cause an extreme unbalance and unfairness that require heavily on tweaking and balancing. That in this game now. No thanks

Edited October 4, 2014 by R3pin3

[Voaster]

I agree. A fair pvp game cannot be Peer to Peer, else whoever is hosting will have a huge advantage.

Having "dedicated servers" is the first step into making pvp fair, but its only the first step of a long staircase that is likely to be skipped for a number of reasons.

[HiTekRedNek]

pvp in a game that is heavily focused on gear and farm will simply not draw any attention whatsoever, If you have had any experience  in high lvl end arena or pvp in wow you would have know that abilities/gear will cause an extreme unbalance and unfairness that require heavily on tweaking and balancing. That in this game now. No thanks

Ummmmm....... World of Warcraft? lol Totally different system, WoW PvP got broken in WOTLK when they decided to seperate pvp oriented people by putting a stat on armor and weapons. Having to switch out entire sets just to be able to hold your own in PvP was the most $&*&*#(%& (mentally challenged) decision they made.

Edited October 5, 2014 by HiTekRedNek

[HiTekRedNek]

I agree. A fair pvp game cannot be Peer to Peer, else whoever is hosting will have a huge advantage.

Having "dedicated servers" is the first step into making pvp fair, but its only the first step of a long staircase that is likely to be skipped for a number of reasons.

I agree that there is more that could be done, but I think it would a great start, and would almost eliminate the advantages being abused by many of the people out there.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

PvP itself is a tad too messed up right now.

Dedi servers wouldn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

[HiTekRedNek]

PvP itself is a tad too messed up right now.

Dedi servers wouldn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Actually it would help alot more than you think. Many of the problems in the PvP is based on the advantage people have by being the host when attacking. I have screenshot after screenshot of not being able to use any weapons, and no head on my frame because of the host. I've also had people record matches where they load in just fine, but mysteriously halfway through the match when the other side is starting to lose, everything stops moving for us, but yet the attackers are still taking the objectives (typical lag switch mechanics).

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

My bad, I meant dark sectors.

Not conclave

[HiTekRedNek]

My bad, I meant dark sectors.

Not conclave

I'm talking about the dark sectors, although the same mechanics can be applied to get an advantage in Conclave, at least I would assume since one person has to host the other.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Ok.

DS conflicts are super messed up.

Defenders have a huge advantage.

Melee is all the combat that you'll really see.

OP stuff.

Attackers can have a massive lead in their level up before defenders show up.

The game is heavily designed for PvE instead of PvP.

I agree that dedi servers are a good thing, but they wouldn't do much good in the grand scheme of things.

[vaugahn]

The game is heavily designed for PvE instead of PvP.

 

You can say that a million times and it won't make it any more true. Just because a game is PvE-focused doesn't mean it can't be balanced for PvP.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

It means it'll take a mounumental amount if work.

So much work that an even larger and more well known studio (Bungie) did not even attempt it.

I'm fine with DE trying something, but let's be realistic.

Edited October 7, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Neocyberman]

The best example for illustrating why dark sector needs servers is because it not having servers in some cases invalidates parts of its mechanics and in others makes pvp unreliable.

 

Just the other day I saw that one side of a dark sector giving credits and fighting a faction I dislike. I go in to defend and nearing the end of it the person disconnects. I receive nothing. This has then removed my reason for playing as there is no mission complete screen for fighting the player to the point where they could not manage any more. There is guaranteed lag with projectile weapons.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

The best example for illustrating why dark sector needs servers is because it not having servers in some cases invalidates parts of its mechanics and in others makes pvp unreliable.

 

Just the other day I saw that one side of a dark sector giving credits and fighting a faction I dislike. I go in to defend and nearing the end of it the person disconnects. I receive nothing. This has then removed my reason for playing as there is no mission complete screen for fighting the player to the point where they could not manage any more. There is guaranteed lag with projectile weapons.

I thought most things were hitscan?

[HiTekRedNek]

Ok.

DS conflicts are super messed up.

Defenders have a huge advantage.

Melee is all the combat that you'll really see.

OP stuff.

Attackers can have a massive lead in their level up before defenders show up.

The game is heavily designed for PvE instead of PvP.

I agree that dedi servers are a good thing, but they wouldn't do much good in the grand scheme of things.

The only advantage Defenders have is how well they prepare their rail for combat (Spectre Regiments and Schema for Turrets and what not), as far as melee goes, while it is crucial for someone to be able to defend themselves in close combat, it is by far the most of the combat you will see unless you just come upon a group trying to spam stun-lock weapons for an easy win. Yes attackers can gain a lead if they are smart about how they approach a rail, but it is countered by the increase in difficulty of the defending mobs the further they go in, it is possible to come in late while a group is on the core, and use good teamwork to stop them. As far as OP "stuff," almost every frame or weapon that people claim as OP has a counter to it, whether it is in a strategy or the use of a different type of weapon/frame, point is to try and bring a team together and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the frames you are running with and "work together." Good Points thanks for the post.

[HiTekRedNek]

The best example for illustrating why dark sector needs servers is because it not having servers in some cases invalidates parts of its mechanics and in others makes pvp unreliable.

 

Just the other day I saw that one side of a dark sector giving credits and fighting a faction I dislike. I go in to defend and nearing the end of it the person disconnects. I receive nothing. This has then removed my reason for playing as there is no mission complete screen for fighting the player to the point where they could not manage any more. There is guaranteed lag with projectile weapons.

This is true, it is truly frustrating to be on the defending side and have a person rage quit or lose connection and it crashes out the game and sends you back to the ship. You basically go in as a defender hoping the person you are fighting against is honorable enough not to just rage at one life left and deprive defenders of their well earned battle pay.

[HiTekRedNek]

I thought most things were hitscan?

Actually no, there are alot of useful PvP weapons that are not hitscan, although alot of people do decide to use hitscan only to avoid alot of lag, but I really enjoy my Dread in PvP and my Despair or Hikou Primes, but there can be some issues when you encounter people with a bad connection. Which, once again could be minimized if they would give us dedicated servers.

[HiTekRedNek]

It means it'll take a mounumental amount if work.

So much work that an even larger and more well known studio (Bungie) did not even attempt it.

I'm fine with DE trying something, but let's be realistic.

It's not as much work as people would expect, and the point I made is that for the public areas they are planning to add, they are going to need dedicated server for those anyway, so why not take the extra step and work on dedicated server for PvP,

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

The only advantage Defenders have is how well they prepare their rail for combat (Spectre Regiments and Schema for Turrets and what not), as far as melee goes, while it is crucial for someone to be able to defend themselves in close combat, it is by far the most of the combat you will see unless you just come upon a group trying to spam stun-lock weapons for an easy win. Yes attackers can gain a lead if they are smart about how they approach a rail, but it is countered by the increase in difficulty of the defending mobs the further they go in, it is possible to come in late while a group is on the core, and use good teamwork to stop them. As far as OP "stuff," almost every frame or weapon that people claim as OP has a counter to it, whether it is in a strategy or the use of a different type of weapon/frame, point is to try and bring a team together and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the frames you are running with and "work together." Good Points thanks for the post.

1) defenders:

Defenders have many advantages over attackers. First, they have infinite lives. Second, their only objective is to kill the attackers while the attackers must focus on two objectives (the actual objectives and killing enemies). Defenders also have the ability to have large amounts of battlepay/supporters depending on their taxes.

2) Melee:

That's actually the problem. Melee is used way too much simply because it is the only way to reliably deal damage to high shield/high health players. This goes back to the fact that WF is balanced more towards PvE rather than PvP. Removing stagger and knockdown from melee should at least help this.

3)Attackers:

I don't think you understand what I mean. The level in system is determined by the number if specters/players killed. So, attackers can essentially farm the early game specters and gain all their mods and abilities before they leave the space area. Defenders, in the other hand, are forced to fight at least one real player.

4) That argument only applies to games where all items are acailable from the beggining. For example, weapon A's counter is weapon B. That's all fine and dandy, but what if weapon B is not in the game. Players could own weapon B (which also assumes they went to farm for it which assumes they has the ability to farm for it which assumes they had the time which assumes they actually could go farm for it), but that does not necessarily mean they chose it before they launched the match.

PS: I'm building the Dread. Can't wait. :)

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

It's not as much work as people would expect, and the point I made is that for the public areas they are planning to add, they are going to need dedicated server for those anyway, so why not take the extra step and work on dedicated server for PvP,

Are you sure it isn't a lot of work.

Balancing EVERY weapon.

Balancing EVERY warframe.

Balancing EVERY mod.

Etc

Please do not forget that DE will have to do the following:

1) create two different "games" in which items in game have two different sets of balance

2) each item will have to be balanced for PvE and PvP despite their obvious differences

Not to mention that players are not always equal. Some guy with maxed stuff could be fighting new players. Destiny addressed that problem, and, I will tell you now, that would NOT go well with the Warframe community.

Edited October 9, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Genji]

I agree. A fair pvp game cannot be Peer to Peer, else whoever is hosting will have a huge advantage.

Having "dedicated servers" is the first step into making pvp fair, but its only the first step of a long staircase that is likely to be skipped for a number of reasons.

 

I had a enemy "attacking player" pretty much invisi-hack consoles because their lag was so horrendous. It was impossible to track them & all of the NPCs ran in place..

 

My hope is that if the player Hubs work out well, doing this as a next step for DS-PVP would only be right. 

[HiTekRedNek]

Ok to your last posts, I'll answer them in order the best I can, and yes I do understand it is your opinion on things and I have a different one and we have to respect that, but I honestly feel that there are key things you have that are a little off. to your first 4 points from the first post, I'll go one at a time.

 

1. Defenders do not have to only worry about killing. If they are playing the sectors the way they are meant to be, they need to keep an eye on the objectives, disarm the consoles if applicable, or guard the reactors, whether the auxiliary ones or the main one in the last room. As far as battlepay is concerned, as posted by some of the other people in the thread, it goes both ways. Battlepay can be set for both defense and offense, but only the attackers can rage quit and screw the defenders out of their battlepay, that is entirely unfair.

 

2. As far as melee being the only truly reliable way to kill people in the sectors, that is just a plain untruth. I make sure that I have backups, and the right tools for different situations as they pertain to my style of play, as do most of the people that I run the sectors with in our alliance. We are always theory crafting, giving advice, and trying to help each other out. I enjoy playing a lot of the frames but I have my favorites, as do others in my alliance, and when someone runs into another player that may be giving them problems in the sectors, they normally seek out those of us that gravitate towards that frame and ask us, "how do you play your frame, and what can I do to help defend against it," and the same thing goes for certain weapons, and weapon combinations.. 

 

3. Yes i understand exactly what you mean, and it is a strategy used widely to stay outside until you hit a level comfortable enough for you to "storm" the inside of the rail, but like any strategy it has it's risks. Wait to long and allow the defenders to catch up enough in level they may catch you off guard and hold you outside. Also, once you move inside the defending and attacking corrupted increase in level to help out their perspective teams. While I would still say that this still gives attacker a bit of an edge if they are careful, a group of defenders can use this to their advantage and use the corrupted to help level themselves and catch up with the hope that the defending corrupted will slow the attackers down enough for them to do that. There apparently is also to be a system in place that give some xp to the defending team, if you come in late in the match, although I am not sure exactly how that works though.

 

4. I understand that, and by no means will you ever hear me suggest that a new player try to just jump in the dark sectors right out of the gate. Guys in my clan, I like to get them in teamspeak and talk to them about strategy, what frames and weapons they have, what frames and weapons their equipment will do good against and what frames and weapons they should be aware of and try to avoid if they have someone running with them that are better equipped or experienced enough to know how to counter them. These are tings every serious alliance and clan should do before getting involved in the rails. Although it is understandable that many new player see the battlepay and try to go in to get it.... sometimes they get carried and sometimes they get killed, in that case it is what it is.......

 

Congrats on dread, it's an awesome weapon!!!!

 

As far as the second post you wrote, there is not as much balance that is needed as you think, IMHO, there are enough weapon and frame combinations, and group combinations that can balance each other out, and honestly the last thing I want is another BF3/4 situation where they take some of the best weapons/gadgets in the game and nerf or change them because someone keeps getting killed by the same thing over and over again, and instead of adapting and changing their load out or strategy, they just go to the forums and go "Ashe killed me" (lol, sry had to make that poke). I have had that conversation many many many times about how to pick an Ashe apart in PvP, mainly because he is one of my favorite frames in both PvP and PvE; inevitably, I always tell the people I am giving advice to, that it really does not matter nearly as much, what frame/weapon combinations you are facing as it is understanding the strength of your own frame and weapons, and learning to try and keep awareness of your situation and use what you know to your advantage. They should not create two different games in my opinion, I honestly miss games where the same stats applied for PvE and PvP across the board.