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So Let Me See If I Understand Heavy Caliber Correctly...


[DE]Momaw
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It's not something I use a lot.  Basically just using the forum as a scratch pad here...

 

From what I gather, Heavy Caliber increases the base damage in much the same way that Serration does, so the equation for the damage your weapon will actually do ends up looking like this:

 

Raw damage * (1 + Serration bonus + Heavy Cal bonus) * (1+ Elemental bonuses) * Multishot

 

That seems to bear out. If I take my Lanka, it has a raw damage of 300.  With max Serration (+165%) it becomes 795 and with a rank 9 Heavy Caliber (+150% heh) it becomes 1245.  Which is expected:

 

300 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.5)

300 * 4.15

1245

 

 

If I only use Serration and add an elemental mod for +90% damage, I should get

 

300 * (1 + 1.65) * (1+0.9)

300 * 2.65 * 1.9

1510.5

 

....Which checks out.  Can we get 3 correct predictions in a row using Serration + Heavy Caliber + element?

 

300 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.5) * (1 + 0.9)

300 * 4.15 * 1.9

2365.5

 

Which also checks out! I understand it!   So the next question is, is heavy caliber a better investment than adding an elemental mod instead (just looking at raw damage here, disregarding factors like "accuracy".  Accuracy is for casuals).  The most precious thing in modding is a slot, since sufficient forma can make any particular mod loadout achievable. So we are directly comparing one slot worth of Heavy Cal (max +165%) versus one slot of element (+90%).  We don't know how much elemental load we would start with, we just know we would have 90% more of it when we're done. So basically we are asking,

 

300 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) * (1 + x) > 300 + (1 + 1.65) * (1 + x + 0.9)

 

At what values of X does this become true?

 

After bashing on that for a bit, it turns out that X solves to 0.445.  44.5% bonus is nonsense, but there's several cards that give 60%.  So, a max rank heavy caliber is more profitable to use in terms of raw damage than a 90% elemental mod, as long as you have at least one other elemental mod already on the weapon

 

UPDATE

 

It was requested that I plug a rank 8 heavy caliber into this equation and see what happens.  Well, for a rank 8, X > 76%.  So you would need to have at least one 90% element mod, or two 60% status/elemental mods, to make a rank 8 heavy caliber more profitable than another 90% elemental.  Or so the math says.  I don't have a rank 8 on hand to test this.

Edited by Momaw
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Damage is nice and all, but it don't mean S#&$ when you can't apply it. :P

 

From a practical applications standpoint, there are many weapons for which the accuracy penalty on heavy caliber basically doesn't matter.

 

 

^ this + i think elementals (like everything in game) as some sort of diminishing returns the more you stack it

(i might be wrong; in other games usually works like this but since we have so few mod slots it might not matter in warframe...)

Edited by Phoenix86
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300 * (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) * (1 + x) > 300 + (1 + 1.65) * (1 + x + 0.9)

 

At what values of X does this become true?

 

After bashing on that for a bit, it turns out that X solves to 0.445.  44.5% bonus is nonsense, but there's several cards that give 60%.  So, a max rank heavy caliber is more profitable to use in terms of raw damage than a 90% elemental mod, as long as you have at least one other elemental mod already on the weapon

 

Do you concur, internets?

 

EDIT: I shouldn't do maths after a nap.

 

But it should be X > 0,59 (heavy caliber gives 150%, not 165%).

 

So you're right, in raw damages heavy caliber is profitable with just 1 elemental.

 

 

Damage is nice and all, but it don't mean S#&$ when you can't apply it. :P

 

 

Apply it? I think I don't get it. You always apply elemental damage (taking into account vulnerabilities and resistances). it's elemental effects like stun, armor diminishing, poisoning... what is based on status chance and have a % of working.

Edited by Kachocalvo
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No.

 

Consider using, for example, 2 +90% elemental damage mods with heavy caliber or three +90% elemental mods

 

Your examples both spend 3 mod slots, and the one that uses HC + elements clearly offers more damage than elements alone so I'm not even sure why are you disputing my conclusion.
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Damage is nice and all, but it don't mean S#&$ when you can't apply it. :P

 

 

Apply it? I think I don't get it. You always apply elemental damage (taking into account vulnerabilities and resistances). it's elemental effects like stun, armor diminishing, poisoning... what is based on status chance and have a % of working.

 

I believe he means when attaching it to weapons that would rely on accuracy, such as a sniper rifle. I tried a Heavy Caliber on a Vectis just to see how that base damage bonus would work out. It did fine, but most of the time the shots would fly far to the left or right when I was aiming and it forced me to rely more on body shots since headshots seemed virtually impossible, which to me kind of defeated the purpose of using a sniper rifle in the first place.. The bonus damage is nice, but for some weapons, Heavy Caliber stops you from applying that damage since you can't hit anything.

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The penta and ogris are really the only weapons that comes to mind when I think damage matters over the accuracy penalty.  Most weapons feel useable still with a -4 HC and even that will be beating out even the 90% elemental mods but the added status chance is useful late game.  However some weapons like bows simply can't afford any accuracy loss or else they'll become useless.  Also this is a simple analysis and yes raw damage HC makes sense but you really need to be specing for the enemies you want to kill and should be including damage 2.0 calculations in your analysis if you want an accurate picture of what's best and by how much.

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HC is always going to be more damage. It's what accuracy penalty you can live with. If you downrank to avoid the penalty you run the risk of coming up short of just adding more elemental damage, but you can't miss hard enough to kill anything.

 

It's the same essentially as serration, it just has a penalty attached. It's always going to be a substantial damage increase and it double dips on elementals (at least that's the way I understand it).

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Your examples both spend 3 mod slots, and the one that uses HC + elements clearly offers more damage than elements alone so I'm not even sure why are you disputing my conclusion.

 

 If you go back to may first answer, you'll see I admit I was mistaken. My apologies.

 

I even used your calculations in other thread about magnum force, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/321211-magnum-force-yes-or-no/

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