Vaskadar Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) As I'm sure you've all seen many Rhinoceri as of late, with no end in sight to Iron Skin's perma-active state (which doesn't prepare these rhino-exclusive players for late-game content, leading to a very sharp and punishing falloff) I've come up with a more interesting solution to Iron Skin's lack of tactical potential, while simultaneously making it a better tanking ability. This proposed change should be in tandem with a change to Rhino Charge, but more on that later. This is how I'd like to see Iron Skin function. Iron Skin Brief period of damage absorption (which bolsters health kind of like how Snow Globe works at the moment) like a reactive/ablative gel that hardens when damaged (fixed at 3-5 seconds, unmodifiable by duration mods). This brief period of absorption should be activated with tactical thought, drawing fire from all enemies nearby for that duration. The aggro drawn from nearby enemies will bolster your likelihood of drawing fire away from your teammates, giving a more defined tanking role. This gel, however, slows his movement speed up to a certain percentage (probably up to a 10-30% at max movement speed penalty) depending on how much damage he's absorbed. We're talking massive damage absorption. Iron Skin values modified by strength, health and armor. Still immune to knockdown for its duration. To visually provide feedback for the player, the more damage absorbed, the more ferrite crystals pop up on his armor. After this period of tremendous damage tanking, Rhino's ablative metal gel starts to dissipate. This period is stretched out over a 30 second time period (when the ability is maxed out), and as the excess armor is shed, the movement speed penalty dissipates. The dissipation period can be extended massively by Narrow Minded and other duration mods. Because duration modifies the new Iron Skin's lasting effects, it would then make builds utilizing Fleeting Expertise less effective overall. You'd have to choose between being able to cast more frequently and have your extra armor deplete faster, or the opposite for more energy. This proposed change will make Rhino more effective as a late game tank, without making him roflols easy in planetary missions. Rhino Charge An activated (toggle-able) state that functions much like Volt's speed, except you're locked into a high speed, stamina-free sprint mode with reduced turning, but deal damage to and knock down everything you come into contact with. This will offset the negative aspects of Iron Skin's movement speed penalty. While you won't be invincible in this state, you'll take a bit less damage from the front (10-25% less perhaps?). It has a set time limit that is affected by duration, but you can de-activate it mid-charge with no delays. This gives Rhino a more interesting way of closing distance to the enemy, and makes it less of a functional copy of Slash Dash or Tidal Surge. Immune to knockdown during duration. Power range affects how wide the charge shield is. Oh, and power duration really should affect Rhino Stomp's stasis effect (and keep it from being reactivated), and will function in a similar manner to Tornado's cooldown timer. Kinda makes duration builds a bit moot if you don't have it affected by power duration. Necessary Clarifications Iron Skin clarifications -New Iron Skin retains its knockdown-impervious status and proc immunity until it's fully dissipated. -New Iron Skin will function like an 'overshield' from the Halo series, diminishing slowly over time until fully exhausted. -New Iron Skin absorbs damage (for a set amount of time, unmodifiable) and converts it to total armor, a la snowglobe's absorption feature. Tanking damage can massively boost Iron Skin's health. -The speed penalty begins to apply after 300-2000 damage has been absorbed, ramping up to full after an unspecified amount. -The speed penalty will have fully dissipated after the absorbed armor has been shed. Activating without absorbing will not incur a speed penalty. -Draws max aggro while absorbing damage. Rhino Charge clarification -Initial charge cost for Rhino Charge is 10 energy. Full usage will cost up to 25 energy. Power strength will affect top speed and damage dealt. Power duration will extend the maximum time active. Rhino Stomp will have a cooldown timer, disabling it from being reactivated while stasis is active. Reduces ultimate spam. These three proposed power changes should hopefully improve Rhino build diversity. Edited October 21, 2014 by Vaskadar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirion_Bk Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I feel like I don't fully understand the new Iron Skin. Does it still work as a form of overshield after the 3-5 seconds of absorption? Aside from that, these changes look good. I like the new Rhino Charge since it allows you to charge right into heavies and knock them all down. Oh, and Rhino Stomp is not affected by Duration anymore since the stasis could become ridiculously long and everything was affected by it, including bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgax Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Few critics about iron skin: Not happy with speed reduction( i don't use arcane vanguard helmet nor speed mods) , even with rhino charge it seems you will be wasting energy just to stay mobile unless this skill won't need energy (i would be surprised). Knockdown: you forgot about this one, frankly absorption is nice and all but this is where the skill shines in my opinion(immunity to getting slammed on the floor), i wouldn't use iron skin as much without that bonus. Eitherway make it passive on rhino or include them in iron skin and the charge. I do like it as an idea of being something activated as emergency button and benefit from stats that make sense. Edited October 19, 2014 by Morgax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telogor Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 So you want Rhino to have temporary invincibility at the cost of movement. This is the worst idea I've seen in an extremely long time. What happens when the minmaxers get a hold of this? They mod carefully, and suddenly they find they have over 70 seconds of near-invincibility for what price? A measly 75 energy and the need to copter everywhere. There used to be an ability that was just a little better (though shorter). It was called Blessing, and the devs just fixed it so that it wasn't automatic invincibility. You would turn Rhino from the most noob-friendly Warframe (which he should be) into one of the least noob-friendly. Right now, Iron Skin is perfect. It protects noobs from all their stupid mistakes and isn't an automatic "I win" button at higher levels. The usability drop of which you speak does exist, but it isn't nearly that bad. At higher levels, Rhino just has to avoid taking damage to benefit from the real purpose of Iron Skin: proc & knockdown protection. People think damage is what kills you, but it's really the stun, knockdown, bleed proc, and blast proc that will do it for skilled players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirion_Bk Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 So you want Rhino to have temporary invincibility at the cost of movement. This is the worst idea I've seen in an extremely long time. What happens when the minmaxers get a hold of this? They mod carefully, and suddenly they find they have over 70 seconds of near-invincibility for what price? A measly 75 energy and the need to copter everywhere. There used to be an ability that was just a little better (though shorter). It was called Blessing, and the devs just fixed it so that it wasn't automatic invincibility. I'll just go ahead and say that the damage absorption is stuck at an unmodifiable 3-5 seconds. Think Snowglobe, but for only Rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaskadar Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Updated with a "Necessary Clarifications" section. Please read in its entirety before making assumptions, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draciusen Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Just to clarify Let's say you're in a high level T4 survival and surrounded by a ton of enemies + Heavies. You pop Iron Skin so you don't get perma-stunlocked and shredded instantly; starting the 3-5 seconds of invulnerability. But you're getting shot at and absorbing the damage, slowing you down quite a bit as your armor bulks up since and you don't have Vanguard. Is this the part where you can use Rhino Charge and just brute force your way out of there without having to worry about copter body-blocks? I like it. Edited October 20, 2014 by Draciusen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lareth87 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You say you want a new method for iron skin? I'm not sure anybody knows how the current one works, wiki says its a set rate, but I know for a fact it's affected (reduced) by no shield NM modes and oxygen depravity in survival modes. I've asked many times in regional and other places and the answer I get 95% of the time is "ask wiki." Is it a % or a ratio comparison? Like I said, I know its not a set rate as presumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 +1 to OP. I like the Charge rework, and I suggested something very similar to that IS a week or so ago (and I was certainly not the first) but got pooh-poohed by a certain poster and I never got good feedback on how I should improve it. One suggestion I'd like to make for the IS, though, is that during the absorption period, maybe Rhino could draw aggro to himself in a very small radius. IS is apparently supposed to do this but it doesn't work at all from what I've seen. That way, Rhino could become a midfield offtank/bruiser who would actually be helping his teammates by taking some heat off of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaskadar Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 +1 to OP. I like the Charge rework, and I suggested something very similar to that IS a week or so ago (and I was certainly not the first) but got pooh-poohed by a certain poster and I never got good feedback on how I should improve it. One suggestion I'd like to make for the IS, though, is that during the absorption period, maybe Rhino could draw aggro to himself in a very small radius. IS is apparently supposed to do this but it doesn't work at all from what I've seen. That way, Rhino could become a midfield offtank/bruiser who would actually be helping his teammates by taking some heat off of them. I'll try to emphasize that more in the original post. Thanks for the +1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaskadar Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Thanks to the uproar about ability slots, actual feedback has stagnated a bit, and people often won't look beyond the first page to dig something up, even if they like the idea. Yes, it's a bit verbose, but honestly, it needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruglov Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The problem with this retool, which is sort of a problem with Iron Skin in general, is that its a very selfish ability. In real games, Iron Skin doesnt really draw aggro and a Rhino with Iron Skin isnt helping his teammates by having the spell active. He is simply helping himself, which is the problem. If Rhino Skin is to be nerfed from a "I cant die" spell then people need to find ways of making it helpful for EVERYONE on the team, not just Rhino. There is no other ability in Warframe that ONLY benefits the caster outside of Iron Skin. Find a way to make Iron Skin useful for the entire team, and then, and ONLY THEN, can we begin to think about nerfing it as it currently is. Because as it currently is, outside of being a selfish spell, its really not a problem and even in late game at least allows Rhinos to help downed teammates or chase particularly strong enemies with a bit more ease than most frames which is by far its definitive feature. Rhino Stomp does not need a nerf. It already has a short cooldown and unlike Mag, Oberon, Vauban, Nyx, Loki, Saryn, Nekros doesnt have any sort of extra debuff effect that scales. It is a short stun and damage only, with a shorter stun than Volt's even, and is inferior to basically all CC abilities once enemies start getting tanky. Stomp needs no changes. It fulfills its role perfectly. Iron Skin is the only arguably weird one and this change doesnt make it any better for teamplay, which at the root of it all is the real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffensiveName5 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Or....you could just build Valkyr or Frost or Oberon, all of which are vastly superior frames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The problem with this retool, which is sort of a problem with Iron Skin in general, is that its a very selfish ability. In real games, Iron Skin doesnt really draw aggro and a Rhino with Iron Skin isnt helping his teammates by having the spell active. He is simply helping himself, which is the problem. If Rhino Skin is to be nerfed from a "I cant die" spell then people need to find ways of making it helpful for EVERYONE on the team, not just Rhino. There is no other ability in Warframe that ONLY benefits the caster outside of Iron Skin. Find a way to make Iron Skin useful for the entire team, and then, and ONLY THEN, can we begin to think about nerfing it as it currently is. Because as it currently is, outside of being a selfish spell, its really not a problem and even in late game at least allows Rhinos to help downed teammates or chase particularly strong enemies with a bit more ease than most frames which is by far its definitive feature. Rhino Stomp does not need a nerf. It already has a short cooldown and unlike Mag, Oberon, Vauban, Nyx, Loki, Saryn, Nekros doesnt have any sort of extra debuff effect that scales. It is a short stun and damage only, with a shorter stun than Volt's even, and is inferior to basically all CC abilities once enemies start getting tanky. Stomp needs no changes. It fulfills its role perfectly. Iron Skin is the only arguably weird one and this change doesnt make it any better for teamplay, which at the root of it all is the real issue. What would you suggest to change, then? That's why I suggested fixing the aggro pull mechanic, so Rhino could become a midfield tank who would have to decide when the best moment to pop IS would be (or else he gets a weak IS). Or....you could just build Valkyr or Frost or Oberon, all of which are vastly superior frames Or.... you could come up with ways to make Rhino a viable sidegrade to the frames you listed. I'd say Rhino > Oberon just because of Roar but that's up for debate. Edited October 23, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaskadar Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 The problem is that Iron Skin doesn't draw fire like it was originally intended to do. Most enemies do not increase their aggro towards Rhino while Iron Skin is active. 'Tanking' is a beneficial role to the team, especially when multiple heavy gunners are firing at the casters. The ability has a very sharp, definite falloff and doesn't provide sufficient protection (if it is intended to be a tanking ability). Rhino fits the archetype of semi-tank right now. For him to fulfill the role of 'Tank' properly his Iron Skin needs to be capable of 1.) Absorbing damage from incoming fire to a greater degree than it currently does, and 2.) Draw aggro towards him and away from friends. 5 seconds of that should be sufficient time to draw attention to protect others. This should come at a cost, but the proposed change to Rhino Charge should offset this cost in speed. Currently, Rhino lacks scalability. Shorter stun? Nah. Rhino Stomp is an amazing CC that holds enemies in stasis for a much longer time period than Mag's Crush and Volt's Overload. Mag doesn't even have a secondary stun. She holds them in place and damages them with magnetic damage for a very brief period. They stand right back up and aren't vulnerable for a set period of time. With Volt's overload, most enemies aren't affected for nearly as long as Rhino Stomp's CC effect. The proposed change isn't necessarily a nerf, it's an improvement to his CC. Spamming something like that doesn't really make for good gameplay. The cooldown should only be as long as the CC effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergeiTheBeast Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm onboard with the rhinocharge change, but against the Ironskin change. Not getting into this argument So I won't say why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insidiatorii Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 As I'm sure you've all seen many Rhinoceri as of late, with no end in sight to Iron Skin's perma-active state (which doesn't prepare these rhino-exclusive players for late-game content, leading to a very sharp and punishing falloff) I've come up with a more interesting solution to Iron Skin's lack of tactical potential, while simultaneously making it a better tanking ability. This proposed change should be in tandem with a change to Rhino Charge, but more on that later. This is how I'd like to see Iron Skin function. Iron Skin Brief period of damage absorption (which bolsters health kind of like how Snow Globe works at the moment) like a reactive/ablative gel that hardens when damaged (fixed at 3-5 seconds, unmodifiable by duration mods). This brief period of absorption should be activated with tactical thought, drawing fire from all enemies nearby for that duration. The aggro drawn from nearby enemies will bolster your likelihood of drawing fire away from your teammates, giving a more defined tanking role. This gel, however, slows his movement speed up to a certain percentage (probably up to a 10-30% at max movement speed penalty) depending on how much damage he's absorbed. We're talking massive damage absorption. Iron Skin values modified by strength, health and armor. Still immune to knockdown for its duration. To visually provide feedback for the player, the more damage absorbed, the more ferrite crystals pop up on his armor. After this period of tremendous damage tanking, Rhino's ablative metal gel starts to dissipate. This period is stretched out over a 30 second time period (when the ability is maxed out), and as the excess armor is shed, the movement speed penalty dissipates. The dissipation period can be extended massively by Narrow Minded and other duration mods. Because duration modifies the new Iron Skin's lasting effects, it would then make builds utilizing Fleeting Expertise less effective overall. You'd have to choose between being able to cast more frequently and have your extra armor deplete faster, or the opposite for more energy. This proposed change will make Rhino more effective as a late game tank, without making him roflols easy in planetary missions. Rhino Charge An activated (toggle-able) state that functions much like Volt's speed, except you're locked into a high speed, stamina-free sprint mode with reduced turning, but deal damage to and knock down everything you come into contact with. This will offset the negative aspects of Iron Skin's movement speed penalty. While you won't be invincible in this state, you'll take a bit less damage from the front (10-25% less perhaps?). It has a set time limit that is affected by duration, but you can de-activate it mid-charge with no delays. This gives Rhino a more interesting way of closing distance to the enemy, and makes it less of a functional copy of Slash Dash or Tidal Surge. Immune to knockdown during duration. Power range affects how wide the charge shield is. Oh, and power duration really should affect Rhino Stomp's stasis effect (and keep it from being reactivated), and will function in a similar manner to Tornado's cooldown timer. Kinda makes duration builds a bit moot if you don't have it affected by power duration. Necessary Clarifications Iron Skin clarifications -New Iron Skin retains its knockdown-impervious status and proc immunity until it's fully dissipated. -New Iron Skin will function like an 'overshield' from the Halo series, diminishing slowly over time until fully exhausted. -New Iron Skin absorbs damage (for a set amount of time, unmodifiable) and converts it to total armor, a la snowglobe's absorption feature. Tanking damage can massively boost Iron Skin's health. -The speed penalty begins to apply after 300-2000 damage has been absorbed, ramping up to full after an unspecified amount. -The speed penalty will have fully dissipated after the absorbed armor has been shed. Activating without absorbing will not incur a speed penalty. -Draws max aggro while absorbing damage. Rhino Charge clarification -Initial charge cost for Rhino Charge is 10 energy. Full usage will cost up to 25 energy. Power strength will affect top speed and damage dealt. Power duration will extend the maximum time active. Rhino Stomp will have a cooldown timer, disabling it from being reactivated while stasis is active. Reduces ultimate spam. These three proposed power changes should hopefully improve Rhino build diversity. I love this idea, and your Rhino Charge suggestion is VERY similar to which I have stated in past topics of my own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WiiConquered Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 You would turn Rhino from the most noob-friendly Warframe (which he should be) into one of the least noob-friendly. Right now, Iron Skin is perfect. It protects noobs from all their stupid mistakes and isn't an automatic "I win" button at higher levels. It lets new players keep being "noobs" without realizing it. It is an automatic "I win" button at low levels. New players can run through missions without any danger, and consequently don't learn how to dodge or use cover or things like how to use mobility abilities to close gaps between melee players and ranged enemies. I know because I was that noob once, and I had so much more fun once I bought another frame (Volt) that wasn't an instant win. Granted, the truth is Warframe doesn't require much skill. Unlike games where the skill requirements grow as players level higher, in Warframe the enemies stay the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrkong Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Rhino Charge: Togglable charge wouldn't make me use it at all. It'll be a speed utility mod in the end and that's what coptering exists for anyways. For Rhino Charge I would like to see it augment the melee for X amount of times (x is based on duration) and the next time you hold down E you'll perform a charge. This will provide a CC alternative to Rhino Stomp and it would also work as a means to close the gap between the Rhino and the enemy for melee gameplay. Making Rhino Charge omnidirectional (so you can charge toward aerial enemies) would be a plus too. Iron Skin: Your suggestion for Iron Skin isn't good at all. I'm completely against slapping duration onto Iron Skin again. It doesn't reward those who actually dodges bullets and use Iron Skin as a constant aggro tool (FYI for anyone who doesn't know Iron Skin already has aggro capabilities). I've mained Rhino since Update 4-5 and if you played Rhino when Iron Skin only did 30% damage reduction (after they fixed proc blocking that is) then you would know Iron Skin=Proc Block and making it duration based completely kills that purpose. The speed debuff is counterintuitive in a fast paced game like Warframe as it'll make dodging bullets harder. Anyone who's playing Rhino as a tank is doing it wrong. That's Valkyr's role. Rhino hasn't been a tank since they removed godmode. Make Iron Skin invincible for the first couple seconds like Globe and honestly all it's endgame issues dissapear. Honestly though what would make the biggest difference for Rhino (and probably most other warframe) would be a hardened shield mod (armor for shields) which lets each shield point take more damage. Roar: It could stay the same but it would be interesting if it weakened enemies as well as gave the team a buff (augment mod maybe?) really underrated ability honestly. Rhino Stomp: Stomp lock has to go. I miss being able to reuse damage dealing abilities. It's annoying when you need to hunt down everyone or wait until it expires before you can reuse it again. Anyone else remember spamming Radial Blast way back when it did 1000 damage? Edited November 8, 2014 by jrkong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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