Removing The 2 Ability Slots Might Not Be The Best Idea

[Semshol]

You see, the first thing that came to mind, when i heard about this upcoming change was this:

 

My gun holds 8 mods. My warframe is bigger than my gun but also holds only 8 mods. This does not make sense to me.

 

My Sword holds 8, it is smaller than my warframe. This does not make sense to me.

 

My Galantine is shiny, I am also hungry, this makes sense to me.

 

In any case, the point that I am trying to get at here is this - keep all 10 mods slots.

 

No, it won't make us overpowered, rather it will open up an ENTIRELY new dimension of power:

 

- With 10 slots to choose from, builds will become even more diverse. Niche mods may see a use beyond just sitting pretty in our collections. We might even make certain slots variable, based on the type of enemies we are going to face, or the type of mission we are running. Throwing on master thief, anti-toxin, undying will, retribution and a whole host of other mods will make our warframes even more diverse than they were in the past.

 

- There is now a reason to give us even tougher enemies to tackle (if you're worried about the overpowered thing): T4 takes around 20 waves to properly rev up, everything before wave 20 is cannon fodder. With 10 mod slots and the ability to create ultra survivalist builds, we can easily open up T5 where things get hardcore straight from the get-go.

 

- Players using 1 ability won't feel deprived. It is hard work forma'ing out and reranking a warframe 3 times. Even more so if done without a booster. Yes we will receive compensation, but we'll have to retool our builds to be less effective than B.A.P. (Best.Absolute.Perfect) and that kind of just...y'know irritates you a little.

 

So to summarize:

 

- I am aware that people can survive on 6 mods.

 

- The objective is not to take a step back

 

- But rather to take a step forward and open up even more incredible things for us Tenno to try.

 

- A Warframe is bigger than a gun or a sword, it needs at least 2 more mod slots, it just makes sense that way really.

 

An added look at how 10 is beneficial:

 

Remember those niche mods I talked about?

 

Well we as a community have always spoken about creating new challenges. Having 10 mod slots would allow us to open up room for challenges beyond simply increase the armor, health and damage of enemies.

 

Here's an idea:

 

A Sabotage + Boss Battle mixed together. This has been a concept of mine that I've written about before and I will bring it back here. One big center room and 4 splinter rooms. In order to damage the boss, 2 Tenno at least have to enter the splinter rooms and trigger the devices. When that happens, the 2 remaining Tenno will fight the boss. The splinter room Tenno then have to deal with a variety of elemental conditions. Toxin, Cold, Fire etc. This means that niche mods are necessary for the 2 runners, while hyper survivalist mods will be necessary for the 2 fighters.

 

Things like undying will, will help the 2 fighter Tenno because they will be given more breathing room to res their partner. As for the 2 runners, they had best have anti-element mods because they'll be facing minions in a variety of conditions without a partner to rez them and hence they must be highly efficient at solo survival.

 

These types of missions become viable with more mod slots because we can have suitably difficult enemies, without worrying about making it overkill for a frame that might not have the space to run a particular mod. This encourages people to try different frames for the roles in question.

 

A Common Idea in this thread:

 

People believe that individuals will have to make the 'hard' choice if we're restricted to 8 slots and that this will bring in build diversity.

 

No it won't, less slots only encourages cookie cutter builds because there is less room to actually make the warframe diverse in terms of its abilities.

 

Taking away our wiggle room promotes nothing but cookie cutter builds because we are working with limited slots. Give us MORE slots than those builds however and suddenly people have the choice to make the warframe the way they want it to be.

 

Choice and freedom are important concepts that we tout in our lives, our gaming lives should be no different.

 

Primary and Secondaries are a good way of highlighting this point by the way. They have 8 slots and are basically nothing but cookie cutter.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Semshol

[aoguro]

yeah, we will see the result soon ... im not really happy with because of all the time i spend and running for mods and all and the plat, right now i have a strange feeling with

 

time cant be given back, neither real cash for plat-investments when things changes AFTER into somehwere, we will see ...

Edited October 20, 2014 by RVNN3R

[SilentCircle]

That item size should somehow be related to the nr. of mod slots doesn't make any sense to me. :)

[Semshol]

yeah, we will see the result soon ... im not really happy with because of all the time i spend and running for mods and all and the plat, right now i have a strange feeling with

 

time cant be given back, neither real cash for plat-investments when things changes AFTER into somehwere, we will see ...

 

Nothing we can do but wait and see, but letting DE know what is a good direction to take, should definitely be the duty of those who play the game. So hopefully, they won't revise the mod slots to 8

 

 

That item size should somehow be related to the nr. of mod slots doesn't make any sense to me. :)

 

Thankfully it makes sense to me :D

[GinKenshin]

it's not about the size....gee 

this is the funniest argument anyone has ever made to keep 10 slots XD

[vaugahn]

See, here's the problem.

Having 10 slots and all 4 abilities wont make people suddenly want to equip maglev and intruder. What it will do is let people balance out corrupted builds even further, or start pushing corrupted mods into balanced builds. Simply having more slots won't make those mods any more useful.

[Omnimorph]

The only thing I'd like to see is more room for "flavour".  Things are tight for choices in the min-maxing department, and that's good, but it would be nice to have some "reserved for flavour" slots too, I think.

[Onisa]

See, here's the problem.

Having 10 slots and all 4 abilities wont make people suddenly want to equip maglev and intruder. What it will do is let people balance out corrupted builds even further, or start pushing corrupted mods into balanced builds. Simply having more slots won't make those mods any more useful.

It gives us wiggle room though. Sure, the 100% effective build may move up field, but some of us are happy enough with the current 100% to not chase it immediately.

[Semshol]

it's not about the size....gee 

this is the funniest argument anyone has ever made to keep 10 slots XD

 

It is to me :D

 

Glad I made you laugh though

 

 

See, here's the problem.

Having 10 slots and all 4 abilities wont make people suddenly want to equip maglev and intruder. What it will do is let people balance out corrupted builds even further, or start pushing corrupted mods into balanced builds. Simply having more slots won't make those mods any more useful.

 

Yes, with the current enemies, but I'm looking toward the future.

 

With 10, DE can literally create enemies or mission types that FORCE you to run the niche mods or alternative mods that aren't exactly for the purpose of min-maxing. The optional gameplay aspect is what I want to push, because it gives us more diversity than bullet sponge enemies.

 

 

The only thing I'd like to see is more room for "flavour".  Things are tight for choices in the min-maxing department, and that's good, but it would be nice to have some "reserved for flavour" slots too, I think.

 

That will likely have to be covered through the work DE does on mission types, to create a need for specific flavour mods instead of the standard bread and butter survivalist/min-maxing mods.

 

But that's why having 10 helps, it gives us room to experiment within those future possibilities, without horribly crippling our survivability should the mission be tough.

[vaugahn]

It gives us wiggle room though. Sure, the 100% effective build may move up field, but some of us are happy enough with the current 100% to not chase it immediately.

I think we all know that's not true.

If an opportunity is given for people to become more powerful, they'll take it. Instantly.

If we had categories of mods, and there were special slots for utility mods, then maybe people would get some use out of them. But just straight up taking out abilities and leaving ten slots isn't a good move. All it does is make broken builds that much more powerful.

[[DE]Azambuja]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/326955-removed-slots-for-prime-warframes-on-u15/

They should keep the 10 slots on the Prime Warframes. This way they will be PRIME WARFRAMES

[(PSN)Kamranos]

We really need to merge all these threads. 

 

I think the 8 mod/no ability mods system will create a better balance and will allow newer players the ability to equip more mods without the energy being wasted on abilities (that they may need to pick and choose depending on energy).

 

The truth is that some of us who do high wave/long stay T4 missions are not the core player base and others who do not play those extremes will enjoy the added freedom. The new system will allow even 1 ability specific frame to use all abilities if needed regardless of effectiveness. As I made the example in the other thread, a Bladestorm Ash can benifit from using Smokescreen's knockback in a pinch even if only invisible for a few seconds.  

[Semshol]

I think we all know that's not true.

If an opportunity is given for people to become more powerful, they'll take it. Instantly.

If we had categories of mods, and there were special slots for utility mods, then maybe people would get some use out of them. But just straight up taking out abilities and leaving ten slots isn't a good move. All it does is make broken builds that much more powerful.

 

As stated in a prior post, the change will come from the possibility of new mission types or enemy introductions. I mean we've had more of the same for so many generations that really, it would be nice to see a change yes?

 

Power grabbing will happen, but in most cases it has already happened. It's not like we didn't have 10 before, most people pushed it at 9 with 1 useful ability.

 

So nothing actually changes much, except that the work we put in our frames isn't taken away.

 

 

We really need to merge all these threads. 

 

I think the 8 mod/no ability mods system will create a better balance and will allow newer players the ability to equip more mods without the energy being wasted on abilities (that they may need to pick and choose depending on energy).

 

The truth is that some of us who do high wave/long stay T4 missions are not the core player base and others who do not play those extremes will enjoy the added freedom. The new system will allow even 1 ability specific frame to use all abilities if needed regardless of effectiveness. As I made the example in the other thread, a Bladestorm Ash can benifit from using Smokescreen's knockback in a pinch even if only invisible for a few seconds.  

 

Problem is, as players advance, high level is basically all that there is for you and when it gets denied after you've already been sitting there for so long, it's not really a pleasant experience.

 

Let's say you enjoy riding your bicycle and having the freedom to ride it however long you want, but now there is a restriction that makes your ride much more uncomfortable, like having handle bars without grips or perhaps the gear change is slower than before. You'll get used to it, but it won't feel pleasant and there really is little sense in it.

[Karinia]

My opinion is. Keep the 10 slot but change the mods. Nerf the rainbow builds and buff the worse mods and give more function or just change the function for some mods which still useless.

 

Edit: For peoples who like the hardcore and says the game too EZ and those balances need then well just add to them higher levels and make so much trap on high levels and then they can prove their skills.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Karinia

[Onisa]

I think we all know that's not true.

If an opportunity is given for people to become more powerful, they'll take it. Instantly.

If we had categories of mods, and there were special slots for utility mods, then maybe people would get some use out of them. But just straight up taking out abilities and leaving ten slots isn't a good move. All it does is make broken builds that much more powerful.

I guess I'm not people then. *sniff*

 

But seriously, those that have truly min-maxed for that one thing end up loosing a slot. Any frames min-maxed for two abilities won't change at all and those that run three of four will gain slots. Even with those extra slots the corrupted mods start top balance themselves if you use more than two. How does an additional slot or two to everyone break the game past being able to add mods that 'didn't make the cut' before?

[DJ_Vauban]

What bothers me is that this "wiggle room" was supposed to be for utility mods like handspring if I'm right and now, exactly that room is being taken away.

 

Kind of a bad way to take care of them if you ask me.

[(PSN)Kamranos]

As unpleasent the idea may be, I think it is very clear that DE intended players to USE the abilities in each warframe rather than forgo them for additional mod slots. In the same aspect, I'm sure they figured most players will still hang onto 2 out of the 4 abilities even when maxing. In this sense, nothing changes for those who still use 2 abilities. Whether you use all for not none at all, 2 IS the middle ground.

 

Players adapt to changes as they come. This concept might seem new and irritating, but in reality it isn't that bad. For most of us, it will help optimize our warframe without sacrificing our abilities. DE said in a recent dev stream that they WANTED players to use warframe abilities rather than swap them for other mods. We are given 4 slots for ability mods...be thankful we get to keep 2.

[Zage23]

Nah we're going to 8.  Balance reasons why we aren't essentially getting 2 extra mod slots.  

 

Also review warframe builds.  No one even uses more than 2 abilities except 1 or 2 frames.  The overall change is tremendous and nothing is being lost, only gained.

[Inversus]

I'm not bothered about whether or not there are 9 or 11 slots, but I agree on the point of not wanting to reforma warframes

I think we should firstly be able to properly choose which mods are removed from our warframes, and then be able to reapply said formas elsewhere without changing the rank of what they are applied to

[CinderDragon77]

Nah we're going to 8.  Balance reasons why we aren't essentially getting 2 extra mod slots.  

 

Also review warframe builds.  No one even uses more than 2 abilities except 1 or 2 frames.  The overall change is tremendous and nothing is being lost, only gained.

 

Except for people that slot one or no abilities effectively losing 1/2 mod slots, I'd consider that a loss.

Edited October 20, 2014 by CinderDragon77

[AlphaHorseman]

Except for people that slot one or no abilities effectively losing 1/2 mod slots, I'd consider that a loss.

You're only losing 1 slot. You'll still have that power from the 10th slot, so it doesn't count. Even then, they're giving you back the forma for it. And besides, once they announce which two slots, just move the polarities over from those two slots. Unless you've formaed your thing to the max and all slots have polarities on them, you'll be fine.

 

Not to mention you're getting all 4 powers available, so pretty much 12 slots total, 8 for WarFrame customization, and 4 for your powers. Semshol I get your trying to keep the 10 slots, but in our current gamestyle, having that would make overpowered builds really quickly. You may be talking about future content, but we don't even know if the kind of content you're talking about is the road they'll take. As such, keeping the slots to 8 only makes sense because everything else we can customize in the game only has 8 slots.

 

My galatine is larger than my Hikou, but both have 8 slots. My Paris Prime is larger than my Fang Prime, but both have 8 slots. My Scindo is larger than my Despair, but both have 8 slots.

[Saint_Tan]

Why not just make Mod Slot Tiers?

 

4 Slots set aside for powers (non-power mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

6 Slots for "Primary" mods (Vitality, Redirection, etc.) (non-primary mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

4 Slots for "Secondary mods (Maglev, Provoked, etc.) (non-secondary mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

 

Yes, this means DE has to "rate" each mod Primary or Secondary - but we all know what those mods are pretty much already...

[Semshol]

My opinion is. Keep the 10 slot but change the mods. Nerf the rainbow builds and buff the worse mods and give more function or just change the function for some mods which still useless.

 

Edit: For peoples who like the hardcore and says the game too EZ and those balances need then well just add to them higher levels and make so much trap on high levels and then they can prove their skills.

 

Funnily enough, there are no rainbow builds, because people have very different opinions on whether or not you need shields and vitality. Compared to me where I often use those two on almost any frame.

 

 

What bothers me is that this "wiggle room" was supposed to be for utility mods like handspring if I'm right and now, exactly that room is being taken away.

 

Kind of a bad way to take care of them if you ask me.

 

This is why we need the 10 =P

 

 

As unpleasent the idea may be, I think it is very clear that DE intended players to USE the abilities in each warframe rather than forgo them for additional mod slots. In the same aspect, I'm sure they figured most players will still hang onto 2 out of the 4 abilities even when maxing. In this sense, nothing changes for those who still use 2 abilities. Whether you use all for not none at all, 2 IS the middle ground.

 

Players adapt to changes as they come. This concept might seem new and irritating, but in reality it isn't that bad. For most of us, it will help optimize our warframe without sacrificing our abilities. DE said in a recent dev stream that they WANTED players to use warframe abilities rather than swap them for other mods. We are given 4 slots for ability mods...be thankful we get to keep 2.

 

What DE wanted is completely different from what they GAVE us. They GAVE us the ability to customize and play our warframes in the way they WE wanted to.

 

Problem is that this is now taken away from us. Our CHOICE in the game to do what we want is being taken away so I'd rather we open up for FULL choices rather than being told: Here is how it is, now you adapt. That's a silly argument.

 

 

Nah we're going to 8.  Balance reasons why we aren't essentially getting 2 extra mod slots.  

 

Also review warframe builds.  No one even uses more than 2 abilities except 1 or 2 frames.  The overall change is tremendous and nothing is being lost, only gained.

 

A lot is being lost for those optimized builds with only 1 ability. We need the 9 slots.

 

Balance is a poor excuse when the argument can be turned on its head. Right now, all we have are bullet sponge enemies. Gives us 10 slots, new mods and mission types to make use of those mods and viola, we can have the challenge that high-levels seek while keeping the game accessible to newbies.

 

 

I'm not bothered about whether or not there are 9 or 11 slots, but I agree on the point of not wanting to reforma warframes

I think we should firstly be able to properly choose which mods are removed from our warframes, and then be able to reapply said formas elsewhere without changing the rank of what they are applied to

 

There's another thread on this, mine is about keeping the slots lol

Edited October 21, 2014 by Semshol

[Semshol]

You're only losing 1 slot. You'll still have that power from the 10th slot, so it doesn't count. Even then, they're giving you back the forma for it. And besides, once they announce which two slots, just move the polarities over from those two slots. Unless you've formaed your thing to the max and all slots have polarities on them, you'll be fine.

 

Not to mention you're getting all 4 powers available, so pretty much 12 slots total, 8 for WarFrame customization, and 4 for your powers. Semshol I get your trying to keep the 10 slots, but in our current gamestyle, having that would make overpowered builds really quickly. You may be talking about future content, but we don't even know if the kind of content you're talking about is the road they'll take. As such, keeping the slots to 8 only makes sense because everything else we can customize in the game only has 8 slots.

 

My galatine is larger than my Hikou, but both have 8 slots. My Paris Prime is larger than my Fang Prime, but both have 8 slots. My Scindo is larger than my Despair, but both have 8 slots.

 

The content that I'm talking about is the route that EVERYONE wants them to take. How many times have you seen on the forums:

 

- We need smarter enemies

- We need more of a challenge

- We need something tougher to tackle

 

Right now, with the current system, bullet sponge is all they can implement.

 

But give us MORE choices and the route becomes OPEN for them to take.

 

If you give us LESS choices, then DE also has their hands tied, because anything they introduce, means that warframes have to go through heavy retooling in order to play it, each time, simply because there wasn't extra mod space available.

 

When we work with lego blocks do they say, oh hey, you want to build a gigantic master piece but uh, you can only use these blocks over here, ignore the gigantic pile in the corner, just these core blocks here.

 

People talk about wanting to get away from rainbow builds, well, the answer to that is inclusion of a choice. Diversity comes from being able to choose MORE THAN the standard bread and butter which keeps you alive. It's nonsensical to expect new and interesting builds to pop up, from LESS slots.

 

No no no, some people will grab power, but others who have hit maximum optimization i.e. those on 2 or 3 abilities, will start to think very carefully about the remaining two slots and they will start to diversify.

 

I already diversify by running two defensive mods instead of the common pro-builds idea of just one defensive mod and it performs better for me. Now I have an option to further increase that, or to take on another mod that might be more useful and I'd have to weigh the choices. That sounds to me more like DE's original intention of warframe, to give us choices and diversity.

 

 

Why not just make Mod Slot Tiers?

 

4 Slots set aside for powers (non-power mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

6 Slots for "Primary" mods (Vitality, Redirection, etc.) (non-primary mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

4 Slots for "Secondary mods (Maglev, Provoked, etc.) (non-secondary mods used here have the higher cost per normal.)

 

Yes, this means DE has to "rate" each mod Primary or Secondary - but we all know what those mods are pretty much already...

 

Restriction is not what this is about. It is about free choice.

 

Some builds hit their optimized level with 8 mods. This means the other 2 becomes secondaries. Some hit it with only 9, so 1 slot becomes a secondary.

 

You cannot restrict mod choice, because we should have the right to choose what we do and do not put on our warframes.

 

Some builds hit optimization with 7 (notably the banshee build) this gives now 3 slots for secondaries, or maybe 2 slots for secondaries and 1 shifted over to primaries so that we can have a super perfect build.

 

As for what that build will be. Well, considering we have freedom now, it'd be what fits your playstyle best.

 

More freedom is what we need, less freedom is not an answer.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Semshol

[AlphaHorseman]

Whoa whoa there, they aren't taking a Hek of a lot away from us. We lose one slot, that's the deal for having not just 6, but 8 to customize our WarFrame and powers with. I'd call that better across the board, the new players can equip more, and so can the vets. Sure, we lose one slot, but for the ability to have all our powers available, and the freedom to customize for all of those powers without having to worry about losing any of them, is a great freedom.

 

We have choice, some may think that cookie cutter builds are the answer, straight DPS, and for them that's cool, they do them, and we can do us. 8 is still a massive amount of choice, far more than we had at baseline in the current system. Trust me, very few will go for Flame Repellant over Fleeting Expertise, or Maglev instead of Flow, that's just how people are. You can still customize for that one ability you want to be super powerful, only difference is that you may be one mod short for the build. But I have to say, if the entire build is dependent on one mod, that's a pretty flimsy build to say is greater than others.

 

DE can still implement entirely new enemy types with, as you stated, smarter AI, better mechanics, and interesting fighting styles, this upcoming change doesn't mean these things cannot happen. We see that with Vay Hek, with Lephantis, and hopefully with other bosses. These new boss remakes are a good start, DE only has to keep building on it and work from there.

 

The hypothetical boss battle that you made up, would that not also remove player choice from the equation as well then? The situation you describe means that a certain build works better in those situations than others. That, in itself, removes player choice from the equation because they would have to optimize their builds a certain way for that boss battle.

 

We lose one mod slot, yes, but we gain so much more in return.