IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) I suppose I'll start saying that I cannot wait for the new update: the archwings look like great fun and the new sigils (if they are indeed released in u15) look amazing. However, one thing I'm dreading in this coming update is the change to ability mod slots. While I'm all for the removal of them from the drop tables (should have been done before, tbh) removal of them from the game entirely is a whole other situation. Firstly, we will be losing two stots, not a big deal seeing as we now have access to all 4 powers. However this now means we now lose any forma'd symbols in those places. Granted we do get our forma back, but people who spent time optimising their personal builds are going to be a little sad to see those hours dissapear into nothingness, being told that it was all a waste of their time. The second point, and my main concern, that I'd like to put out is the change in personal builds. We all have different playstyles, and we match those playstyles by the frames we play and the powers we chose to use and optimise capability. From u15, this individuality will no longer exist: with access to all 4 abilities, theres no need to optimise. Just make everything good. Remember the times (back up until u10 ended, maybe) when the best melee weapons in game were simply the ones that had all 3 (at the time) elemental mods and either had the fastest or stongest hits, like the dual zoren or the galatine? Cookie-cutter. Good at everything. No need to change. This is what I fear this new change to the mod system will bring. I could be overreacting about this, but it does have me worried that there will never be as much personality in terms of playstyle with frames any more. I hope there are some of you out there that feel the same way, and that I'm not alone in thinking this could kill the game a little. Thanks for taking the time to read this. TL;DR - read 3rd paragraph "The second point...", possible death of individuality/creativity in builds on U15 release. Edited October 21, 2014 by IANOBW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 We will still be able to optimize our builds to whichever powers we seek to optimize, that's the beauty of the new system. A Loki going for a duration invis build can still optimize for it, though he loses out on his range for radial disarm. A Frost can go for duration as well for his snow globe, though he may lose damage output of his powers, and also range if he sees fit to do so. We have all our powers, yes, but we still have all the freedom to customize our builds to either tailor it into the specialization of one power, which many do now anyways, or we can choose to buff up a majority of our powers to a certain extent, but not be able to reach the levels of CC or Damage that specializing in one power would've. The other bonus is that we are able to specialize, sure, but if the need arises, we also have the added clutch of having our other powers there for support. Take for example the Frost extended build, if his snow globe falls due to incoming enemy damage, he may opt to use his avalanche to destroy anything nearby, and should he have gone with a power strength build, that ability will do some damage, though in a smaller vicinity. We get the same tradeoffs that we do in the current system, the only change is that we have a clutch in case we need it, and 8 slots to customize our powers with. Not to mention we'll have the syndicate bonuses when we reach certain ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blowfist Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 We've been nerfed and had two slots removed for two abilities we won't use. That's pretty much the general feeling from most players who bothered to optimize a frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 We've been nerfed and had two slots removed for two abilities we won't use. That's pretty much the general feeling from most players who bothered to optimize a frame. You can still optimize, difference is you're only missing one slot from before. If an entire build is dependent on one slot, when it has 8 already in its build, then I wouldn't call that a stable build to go with. Plus it's not just two abilities, but three abilities added. In retrospect, the old system allowed you 10 slots, 4 of which were taken up by powers, so essentially 6 slots that you had to work with. The new system gives you not only all your powers, so 4 abilities, but also 8 slots to customize with, so in essence you're getting 12 slots total, excluding the Aura. Not only that, but you don't have to forma your powers away, but you can still optimize to make one power extremely powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) The other bonus is that we are able to specialize, sure, but if the need arises, we also have the added clutch of having our other powers there for support. Take for example the Frost extended build, if his snow globe falls due to incoming enemy damage, he may opt to use his avalanche to destroy anything nearby, and should he have gone with a power strength build, that ability will do some damage, though in a smaller vicinity. We get the same tradeoffs that we do in the current system, the only change is that we have a clutch in case we need it, and 8 slots to customize our powers with. Not to mention we'll have the syndicate bonuses when we reach certain ranks. I know that this is technically a good thing, but I'd like to point out that (at least for me) having more that 3 powers on frame can get a little cluttered when you are in a tough situation. I know, I should use the 1-4 keys, but I use my mouse, I'm used to it. I don't want to have to wheel my way to radial blind and instead hit slash dash, for example. Also, 8 slots is actually worse: I have builds that utilise 1 or no powers at all, because I used forma a lot. Now they are worthless. Edited October 21, 2014 by IANOBW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scr4mp Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The upcoming changes to the skill-mods will penalize specialized builds and reward those who don't specialize but want to use all powers. It is a sad thing that DE wants us players to be more uniform with our builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 The upcoming changes to the skill-mods will penalize specialized builds and reward those who don't specialize but want to use all powers. It is a sad thing that DE wants us players to be more uniform with our builds. This is what I'm trying to say, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blowfist Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The upcoming changes to the skill-mods will penalize specialized builds and reward those who don't specialize but want to use all powers. It is a sad thing that DE wants us players to be more uniform with our builds. Hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venarge Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 how about people just wait for it to release and not start a gazillion threads about the same topic without actually trying it out. It was the same when U7 changed the whole mod system. There where 23453465345634765 threads how bad it would be and guess what... It became better. So pls wait for those kind of threads till you actually have a reason to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaerion Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My guess is that you'll have to adapt, Tenno, like your ancestors did. And then you'll realize all the power you have earned with the new possibilities. Tail Winded from General Discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I know that this is technically a good thing, but I'd like to point out that (at least for me) having more that 3 powers on frame can get a little cluttered when you are in a tough situation. I know, I should use the 1-4 keys, but I use my mouse, I'm used to it. I don't want to have to wheel my way to radial blind and instead hit slash dash, for example. Also, 8 slots is actually worse: I have builds that utilise 1 or no powers at all, because I used forma a lot. Now they are worthless. Wow, you went deep into the specialized builds, didn't you? I applaud you for your dedication, I do hope the formae serve you well as recompense. On the keys part, you are able to change the bindings of your keys, so that you can just have one power assigned to the mouse, I do believe. I remember one of the Devs saying it was possible to do so. This way, you won't have to bother with any of the powers you don't want to use, and are able to use the power that you want. A build with no powers, extreme survivability? It turn's you into a straight gunner then right? It's an interesting build, I haven't seen one of those in action, but that's pretty intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scr4mp Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Plus it's not just two abilities, but three abilities added. In retrospect, the old system allowed you 10 slots, 4 of which were taken up by powers, so essentially 6 slots that you had to work with. The new system gives you not only all your powers, so 4 abilities, but also 8 slots to customize with, so in essence you're getting 12 slots total, excluding the Aura. You don't seem to understand 1 point. If I specialize my nekros build for desecrate for example, I'm using overextended. overextended reduces my power strenght alot. Abilities like his terrify and shadows of the dead heavily rely on power strenght, making them useless with overextended. So even when I have those ablities with me they are a waste of energy because of their reduced effectiveness. With the current system I can replace those skills with usefull mods. With the upcoming system I can't do that anymore. Edited October 21, 2014 by Scr4mp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 i can appreciate the concern that choosing not to have Abilities represented more of a specialization choice than just not casting the Ability instead. i definitely get it. but i'm on the fence about it until i see it for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scr4mp Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My guess is that you'll have to adapt, Tenno, like your ancestors did. And then you'll realize all the power you have earned with the new possibilities. Tail Winded from General Discussion. Adapt? Yes, it is a great thing, but we will have only 8 slots we can adapt with than the 10 we have atm. I am for adaption and thats why I am fighting against those changes DE is going to shove us into cause they prevent adaption, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) how about people just wait for it to release and not start a gazillion threads about the same topic without actually trying it out. It was the same when U7 changed the whole mod system. There where 23453465345634765 threads how bad it would be and guess what... It became better. So pls wait for those kind of threads till you actually have a reason to do so... I will have to wait, doesn't mean I cant express concern. Wow, you went deep into the specialized builds, didn't you? I applaud you for your dedication, I do hope the formae serve you well as recompense. On the keys part, you are able to change the bindings of your keys, so that you can just have one power assigned to the mouse, I do believe. I remember one of the Devs saying it was possible to do so. This way, you won't have to bother with any of the powers you don't want to use, and are able to use the power that you want. A build with no powers, extreme survivability? It turn's you into a straight gunner then right? It's an interesting build, I haven't seen one of those in action, but that's pretty intense. Key binding wont help when I want to use powers 3 and 4 on one frame and 1 and 2 on the other, if that makes any sense. It might be a good idea in that case for DE to allow us to disable powers on our frames, so I don't hit freeze when I wanted snow globe. The build with no powers that I mentioned was for pvp (albeit I'm awful in pvp) and was optimised as such. I, along with many, will lose out on 2 slots. Edited October 21, 2014 by IANOBW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You don't seem to understand 1 point. If I specialize my nekros build for desecrate for example, I'm using overextended. overextended reduces my power stenght alot. Abilities like his terrify and shadows of the dead heavily rely on power strenght, making them useless with overextended. So even when I have those ablities with me they are a waste of energy because of their reduced effectiveness. With the current system I can replace those skills with usefull mods. With the upcoming system I can't do that anymore. True, in that case I'm guessing terrify is only going to work for a short while, and shadows will summon maybe a goon or two, maybe three. Could this customization not be achieved through 8 slots though? I honestly don't know your build in this case, so I couldn't say, but there has to be a way where you could fit 8 mods into the system to make your desecrate still effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I will have to wait, doesn't mean I cant express concern. Key binding wont help when I want to use powers 3 and 4 on one frame and 1 and 2 on the other, if that makes any sense. It might be a good idea in that case for DE to allow us to disable powers on our frames, so I don't hit freeze when I wanted snow globe. The build with no powers that I mentioned was for pvp (albeit I'm awful in pvp) and was optimised as such. I, along with many, will lose out on 2 slots. Ah, I see whatcha mean. It's an interesting dilemma for you then. Only advice is to adapt, as Yaer said then. And with the coming of the new system, I hope that you'll be able to. I think you could, it'll take some adjustments, but it is something that could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) True, in that case I'm guessing terrify is only going to work for a short while, and shadows will summon maybe a goon or two, maybe three. Could this customization not be achieved through 8 slots though? I honestly don't know your build in this case, so I couldn't say, but there has to be a way where you could fit 8 mods into the system to make your desecrate still effective. Desecrate will be effective, but other powers will get in the way. Miscasting (if that is a word) is a problem. Wasting energy on a poorly optimised Shadows instead of Desecrate means death in most cases. Ah, I see whatcha mean. It's an interesting dilemma for you then. Only advice is to adapt, as Yaer said then. And with the coming of the new system, I hope that you'll be able to. I think you could, it'll take some adjustments, but it is something that could be done. We will be able to adapt, but our builds may become monotone, cookiecutter builds. All too similar, maybe a lot will be exactly the same. Edited October 21, 2014 by IANOBW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venarge Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I will have to wait, doesn't mean I cant express concern. I know what you mean with all those specialized builds but some times i think people overreact a little bit ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scr4mp Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) True, in that case I'm guessing terrify is only going to work for a short while, and shadows will summon maybe a goon or two, maybe three. Could this customization not be achieved through 8 slots though? I honestly don't know your build in this case, so I couldn't say, but there has to be a way where you could fit 8 mods into the system to make your desecrate still effective. It's even worse with terrify, the number of targets affected is affected by power strenght. With low power strenght you will only terrify like 4 targets. My current desecrate build: Aura: whatever Skill + modification: Desecrate Fleeting Expertise Streamline Stretch Overextended Natural Talent Tank: Redirection Vitality Vigor Convenience: Flow (wich in my eyes is very important to keep your energy up, because it can happen that you find alot of energy in one room and almost none in the next) With 1 slot gone I will either have to cut down my tank (wich nekros doesn't have a lot of) or flow but removing flow will affect my efficiency. And my build is one of the more "straight forward" ones. Try putting on something more exotic like a rage/quickthinking or equilibirum build allready cuts down your efficiency and with 1 slot lessthose won't even be working anymore without reducing the efficiency of desecrate even more. Oh and before someone says, drop natural talent: natural talent is the mod that allows nekros to be somewhat mobile and able to deal some damage himself than rather being a static desecrating statue. And nekros is only 1 example here. Edited October 21, 2014 by Scr4mp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It's even worse with terrify, the number of targets affected is affected by power strenght. With low power strenght you will only terrify like 4 targets. My current desecrate build: Aura: whatever Skill + modification: Desecrate Fleeting Expertise Streamline Stretch Overextended Natural Talent Tank: Redirection Vitality Vigor Convenience: Flow (wich in my eyes is very important to keep your energy up, because it can happen that you find alot of energy in one room and almost none in the next) With 1 slot gone I will either have to cut down my tank (wich nekros doesn't have a lot of) or flow but removing flow will affect my efficiency. And my build is one of the more "straight forward" ones. Try putting on something more exotic like a rage/quickthinking or equilibirum build allready cuts down your efficiency and with 1 slot lessthose won't even be working anymore without reducing the efficiency of desecrate even more. Oh and before someone says, drop natural talent: natural talent is the mod that allows nekros to be somewhat mobile and able to deal some damage himself than rather being a static desecrating statue. And nekros is only 1 example here. Streamline, then? seems to be the least harmful to take out, and with a maxed efficiency fleeting, you're only losing out on 15% efficiency since DE caps efficiency at 75%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 -snip- for you specifically, i'd choose Vigor as the weakest link. unrelated from what's upcoming entirely, just if i had to lose one Mod, i'd choose Vigor out of those first. infact, i usually might not even use Vitality. or not Redirection. depends on how i feel about using those Health Orbs as a constant supplement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaHorseman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Desecrate will be effective, but other powers will get in the way. Miscasting (if that is a word) is a problem. Wasting energy on a poorly optimised Shadows instead of Desecrate means death in most cases. We will be able to adapt, but our builds may become monotone, cookiecutter builds. All too similar, maybe a lot will be exactly the same. Ah, don't fret my friend. We will still have diversity, and a lot of it. We lose one mod slot, yes, but that does not mean we lose customization overall. We have more to customize for now. A new playstyle could be used with two powers in tandem with one another, like an Avalanche Snow Globe combo, or Terrify Shadows of the Dead Combo, or Invis Decoy combo, or others, I honestly am not good at comboing powers, am I, haha. But the premise I'm trying to get at is, one lost slot does not mean the end of customization, we still have that. Also, you can customize without having to sacrifice your powers, and can specialize not only one power this time around, but maybe two if you can work it out right. It may not be the one trick pony builds many have now (and I think with 8 slots its safe to say that can still be a thing), but it will still be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Ah, don't fret my friend. We will still have diversity, and a lot of it. We lose one mod slot, yes, but that does not mean we lose customization overall. We have more to customize for now. A new playstyle could be used with two powers in tandem with one another, like an Avalanche Snow Globe combo, or Terrify Shadows of the Dead Combo, or Invis Decoy combo, or others, I honestly am not good at comboing powers, am I, haha. But the premise I'm trying to get at is, one lost slot does not mean the end of customization, we still have that. Also, you can customize without having to sacrifice your powers, and can specialize not only one power this time around, but maybe two if you can work it out right. It may not be the one trick pony builds many have now (and I think with 8 slots its safe to say that can still be a thing), but it will still be there. I appreciate the optimism, but my concern (and reasons for) still stand. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grekkatarq Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 That will be the same feeling what we have now on weapon builds. Just not enough. The adaptation is not hard but just simply kill the more variety. I can suggest to implement a skill tree - i know already they tried in closed beta but they can learn what went wrong with and implement a better. Other way they can revise the mods in u16 and change unused to usable and reduce the corrupted mods for balance the build variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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