So, More Than A Year In, Here's Some Feedback.

[PaxEthenica]

This is, essentially, a customer review - general feedback in its most pure form. It is a post dedicated to my impressions and what the game evokes in me more than a year into it. Expect no suggestions on how to fix things, but more a list on what works and what doesn't.

I'd like to start things off by saying that at this moment I am angry. Not screaming, stomping, punching, tantrum angry but the cool, adult anger that comes when you know that things aren't right and there's little you can actively do to fix it. It's the sort of sympathetic, helpless anger one feels when they see and hear a sick baby crying, but have neither the medicine nor the medical training to help it. You know, the kind of anger that, left unchecked, will start to make you hate that baby. I feel that kind of anger and helplessness a lot whenever I play the game these days. So, I stop playing, sometimes, for weeks on end because I know I'm on the verge of hating it and never playing again. I walk away before I kick that baby in its soft, wailing mouth.

Whenever an update comes along, I usually forget that feeling. I sit down, filled with cautious, weary optimism, and I play. My optimism is always weary, because I am always disappointed. I don't feel the hype, and I react with revulsion whenever people try to foist it upon me. I don't watch dev streams, I just play the game as it's released and enjoy it as it comes. For a while, usually, I fool myself in believing that the game is fun, and why did I ever feel like I did back then? And then the baby starts crying out in pain and reminds me, and I am again disappointed, and the helpless anger returns. I linger for a few more days, stuck in a hellish limbo of not-really-enjoying a solid shooter experience until, again, I put the game down before I hate it completely.

I don't know, but I think it's troubling that every time I pick up the game again, the anger comes back faster.

 

Update 14, it took me about a week before I lost all enthusiasm, and just played the game because it was there and I gave it some money. I enjoyed the new tutorial. It was well made, well paced, and put me into contact with Darvo. I like Darvo. Then I beat the jackal, completed the Kubrow quest and my fun times stopped. I discovered Kubrows to be a unnecessary credit sink in a game that has no inflation. I've only ever bred one and have never, ever, brought it out of stasis since. I will not consign her to the Lotus because caring that much would make me angry. So I don't. Months of development and effort on the part of the game devs are utterly wasted on me because of upkeep, and I actually think less of other players who bring their Kubrows. Not that I see many Kubrows, anyway. Which is good, because I don't want to be reminded that they exist. The snow white female Sahasa Kubrow named Shmoopy no longer exists except in limbo, and I resent every attempt the game makes to remind me that I ever got emotionally attached to such an insidious THING.

 

This latest update? I haven't even given the game ANY money, and have played for less than ~15 hours and already I don't want to play anymore. My Archwing just got started in the foundry, and I probably won't even touch it for about a month, maybe two; I've been upset and disappointed that quickly. The Syndicate system lost a lot of its allure when I saw the quality and nature of the rewards. It immediately lost all my interest the moment I saw in the wiki, and later in the forums, that to advance beyond a certain level I'd have to start forking over Forma and Taters. I haven't even started on the Syndicate system. It's more dev work that has been completely wasted.

I have never done an Archwing mission, not one. As said, my Archwing just started cooking less than an hour ago. I needed a cell to get it all started. ... God, I hate fighting Ruk. I really do hate it. Ruk is such a badly designed boss. Invulnerability windows and extremely fiddly hit boxes to actually hit him, and... it's just a terrible way to handle a boss. It makes me despise other players. Which I do. I had to fight Ruk 5 times for just 1 cell. I am going to need 3 more to make Limbo. God, I hate fighting Ruk.

 

The new mod system for Warframes in Update 15 is, in my opinion, the only saving grace, and probably the only chance my Archwing will have to see any use in three days. It is an incredible improvement on the old way things were done, and I can't see nor say anything bad about it. Way to go, DE, you struck the bullseye. It was a balance in the right direction: up. It allows for more varied and powerful builds, and it makes me wearily optimistic about what kind of craziness you're going to throw at us to put us all back into our places.

Most, if not all, of what I don't like about Warframe can be traced back to one course: Platinum. I actually look down on players who have the Prime Sugatras, and the Prime cosmetic armors. Those are not people who've been through what I've been through. They have not put in the effort I have. They simply paid for what they have. They looked into the yawning chasm of what effort and time needed to get what they wanted and, unlike me, they said no. I am an adult, damnit, playing a game rated for adults and this scum has to have his lolipop now? Vermin.

And yet... I am vermin; Update 13, or as it feels in my mind, "the Update that broke me." Hydroid is ridiculous. To get him one must brave two RNGs, the Foundry, and then another poorly made boss battle with invulnerability phases, and limited hitboxes. Then another RNG on the drop. I looked that pustulent monster in its fat, oozing, broken face and I said no. God help me, I said no. Others have tackled the monster, but I didn't. I'm an adult and I couldn't put forth the effort.

 

I am the most polite and supportive Hydroid player you'll ever meet, willing to sacrifice his own fun for the benefit of other players, but that's because I hate myself. The game has made me hate myself.

 

This post has gotten too maudlin. So here is a happy kitten to calm things down.

 

Gun play is as solid as it's ever been. Movement has been better; why did you remove the infinite wall climb bug? It wasn't like it was easy, it actually took skill. It was a skill! Why'd you remove a skill?! Up balance! C'mon! USE IT in level design! Don't take it away! Up-balancing good! Down-balancing bad! No one likes a nerf except jerks!

 

Melee is melee. Melee is meh. I like Melee 2.0 more than 1.0, but melee is useless against most of the bosses, and pretty much all of the reworked bosses. Again, invulnerability phases are bad boss design. No game was ever elevated by a boss that you couldn't hurt for arbitrary reasons. Jackal gets away with it because it's technically not invulerable, it's just got a beastly shield that needs to be taken down first. There isn't a single time in the Alad V fight where you can't hurt the boss, you just need to hurt him in a particular order. Also stances are far too uncommon and rare, and you deincentivising players from even looking at specific types of weapons until they cross the RNG stance hurdle. That isn't good game design.

 

I like having to pay for cosmetics, and I genuinely like players who show non-Prime Sugatras, armors, and Sydanas. It's a fun, respectable way to show one's support and want for the game to do well, and that makes me grin. And don't think I haven't noticed the little Noggles! Ahhh! I'm a grown man, and they made me squee! If I get my enthusiasm back, I'm prolly going to drop a few bucks on a full set. Weapon skins are also really cool, and color palettes are okay. Not entirely happy about those, I think that the starting palettes should be completely unlocked at start, but the other ones? They're just fine.

 

The Foundry is a cancer worming its way through good game design, as is the building time for Clan Dojos. Jim Sterling was right, making players wait for free things to be finished AFTER they've put all the time and effort into getting it started is about the worst thing a game can do to its consumer base. It's a slap in the face; an insult to the people who play and care the most, and it should be abolished. I know I said I wasn't going to offer solutions to any problems, but that one is so incredibly straightforward, "I shouldn't put up with this, take it away," that I'd be remiss not to suggest it.

 

Oxium is an abomination. Argon is a blight. Cryotic is perfectly alright.

 

Fix the drop tables. They're terribly congested, and you're not doing anything except making people not want to play rescue, non-Void defense, and Interception more.

 

I wish there was more to do with the Clans. I mean, with the complete failure of the Syndicate system (for me), there is no real sense of sociability or anything that really binds me to my fellow players. Then again, the whole Platinum thing doesn't really help, and I know I'm not the only one. There's only one guy out of 42 who still plays in my clan, and I'm unwilling to recruit new blood because no one that's EVER joined has stuck around longer than two months. They, like me, get angry and disappointed, but they, unlike me, put the game down to never play it again.

 

That's a bad thing.

[DeathKoala]

That is the wordiest, most depressing apathy I've ever read. It seems like you're itching to hate the game, but don't want to admit to yourself that it isn't your cup of tea. If you're simply not going to enjoy yourself, don't play.

 

Edit: I redact my statement, as I hadn't read your whole post. I'll hold off on passing judgement until I've let this filter through my system and maybe had a good night's rest.

Edited October 27, 2014 by DeathKoala

[011100110110000101101101]

*clap* *clap *clap*

 

This has to be the BEST non ranting rant I've ever read.

 

You bring up excellent points that must be addressed, but I doubt they ever will.

 

I know DE knows what the playerbase thinks on these topics, and the fact that they have done nothing about it makes me think they don't care.

 

I still don't know if they care or not, but time shall tell, I hope.

 

But until then I'll still be here, waiting.

[PaxEthenica]

That is the wordiest, most depressing apathy I've ever read. It seems like you're itching to hate the game, but don't want to admit to yourself that it isn't your cup of tea. If you're simply not going to enjoy yourself, don't play.

That's just it, I don't want to hate the game. I really-really don't. I fell in love with it 12 months ago, and now it's like we're in a committed relationship. I know, intellectually, that some part of that is the sunk cost fallacy, but the game keeps showing such promise! And in terms of the new mod system, it actually delivered, for once! Maybe I sound like a battered wife (and maybe I'm a terrible person for saying that (I am)), but I can't just LEAVE. It's got to... I don't know! I don't know what the game has to do to get me to hate it forever, but it's not doing that right now!

[Varzy]

If you hate Ruk, stop fighting him. He's really not a good source of cells these days. Just do a Saturn/Ceres survival or defense.

[DeathKoala]

That is the wordiest, most depressing apathy I've ever read. It seems like you're itching to hate the game, but don't want to admit to yourself that it isn't your cup of tea. If you're simply not going to enjoy yourself, don't play.

 

Edit: I redact my statement, as I hadn't read your whole post. I'll hold off on passing judgement until I've let this filter through my system and maybe had a good night's rest.

Here's my updated response:

[AM-Bunny]

How come you say that you enjoy seeing people with cosmetics because they support the game, but look down on someone that bought prime accessories?

 

How come you look down on people with kubrow? Because they feed it? Just because you don't like the system, you hate people that do?

[SolarDwagon]

Reverse elitism OP.

First up, you're looking down on people who play differently than you or pay money (which I might add KEEPS THE GAME GOING). So, I honestly don't care that you're angry, because despite your claim, it's a child's anger.

 

First up, the "Kubrow Credit Sink" claim. lets look at the maths shall we? Originally 100k, now 75k for a pack of six. That is, 24 days worth of kubrow. Now, you can argue that it shouldn't be there at all, but lets face it, it's a tiny cost for anyone who plays daily. If you don't play daily, that's what stasis is for.

 

Second, the QUALITY of the syndicate rewards?! Of all the things to complain about, that is the absolute stupidest thing. The costs for even the mid-ranks, the difficulty to get rep without specifically playing for it... sure! But the QUALITY of the rewards? Have you even READ the things?

 

Third, if you farm badly that's not our problem. Go do a survival, interception, ooh Invasion missions often reward O-cells! So yeah, you're an idiot.

 

Platinum, the thing that actually keeps the game alive. Something that you later LAUD, saying you LOVE paying for cosmetics. Sort your crap out. Work out if you hate it or love using it yourself.

 

Hydroid. OH MY GOD YOU MADE A VALID POINT. Grindwalls OP.

 

Foundry and Dojos, oh no you have to wait? Deal with it.

 

Oxium, Argon and Void, yeah those need work.



tl;dr: OP is a whining idiot who happened to make a couple of valid points in the middle of his stupidity.
 

Can you tell how angry your post made me?

Edited October 27, 2014 by SolarDwagon

[PaxEthenica]

...

 

Can you tell how angry your post made me?

Yup.

[Ryjeon]

Pretty well written sort-of rant about a lot of the games problems. I certainly am not blind to a lot of those problems. Especially the way the rng reward grind funnels players into a narrow subset of missions that get boring pretty quick. I miss the old days when Outer Terminus, Narcissus, and Varro always had something going on and people played to wave 50. I haaaaaate Sechura for killing that.

Still a big fan of the game though. Because there's really nothing quite like it as far as gorgeously fluid and responsive acrobatic PvE melee and gunplay. So I'll stick around through every iteration until the Devs find that sweet spot. And I'm going to pick up that 50 dollar prime armor pack + boosters.  Because I like playing Tenno dress up, and I have a ton of weapons I want to level with the boosters. I'm not taking them to Sechura. I'm going to equip them alone and solo some hall missions. And I'm going to turn off the hud.  Because I hate the crosshair. It is my bane.

Currently the game feels more engaging to play solo. And I think you've outlined a lot of reasons of why that is. The games a bit bloated and unfocused. There is definitely fun to be had. But you kind of have to find it for yourself.

[APBladeX]

OP, I love you. This is the most beautiful non-ranty rant I've ever seen. It addressed valid points that are holding this game back. 

[Gordyne]

I also think Syndicate was a complete waste of time, something so abstract it's only there to give naive player a false feeling of identity.

 

IMHO this game should strive to be more like Killing Floor.

 

In KF we have like 50 weapons, 7 classes and little variety in enemies.

 

But they all have meaning, they all have their place and work toghether to make the game good.

 

They have weigth. You have to consider smartly taking into acount environment, enemy priority, team composition and weapons used.

It also forces you to position yourself, very few games do that and it's an invigorating challenge. In harder modes, if your position is a bit off in the map you're in big trouble and need to think fast before you get surrounded.

 

Some of the most thrilling moments I had in games  was escaping barely alive using my resources and thinking fast, switching to proper weapons for the right enemy, choosing the better route to flee, while having good aim to hit weakspots and kill as fast as I coul to avoid beign surrounded.

 

This is what gives us the accomplishment feeling that many seek in games.

 

I did it. I survived. In warframe your Boltor/Soma do this for you, as long as you're decently quick and can hit the broad side of a barn.

 

Warframe needs to stop adding weapons and frames and useless features it already has enough.

 

They need to rework, rebalance and tweak existing content for it to have depth and weight and make us think.

 

At least on mid to endgame.

 

I won't put a single dime in warframe until this game changes from "Braindead fire your boltor and press 4"

[Kruglov]

 

 

IMHO this game should strive to be more like Killing Floor.

 

In KF we have like 50 weapons, 7 classes and little variety in enemies.

 

But they all have meaning, they all have their place and work toghether to make the game good.

 

They have weigth. You have to consider smartly taking into acount environment, enemy priority, team composition and weapons used.

It also forces you to position yourself, very few games do that and it's an invigorating challenge. In harder modes, if your position is a bit off in the map you're in big trouble and need to think fast before you get surrounded.

 

Some of the most thrilling moments I had in games  was escaping barely alive using my resources and thinking fast, switching to proper weapons for the right enemy, choosing the better route to flee, while having good aim to hit weakspots and kill as fast as I coul to avoid beign surrounded.

 

This is what gives us the accomplishment feeling that many seek in games.

 

God, this.

Killing Floor manages to do what Warframe tries to do and KF is such an old old tossed-together game.

 

So many of Warframe's problems with enemy balance would be fixed if enemies all got proper behaviors.

Right now outside of grineer ballistas (who occasionally take cover) all the enemies in Warframe are the same.

They run out, they stop a few yards away and fire at you. Or they run out and charge at you/thepod and just wail on it and hope it dies.

 

And that's it.

Thats the extent of their intelligence.

 

Imagine if the bullet sponge napalms and heavy gunners were like Fleshpounds where they specifically try to hunt down one player, and after taking a certain amount of damage get a bonus to their speed and damage and go absolutely ham, forcing players to learn to focus fire.

 

Imagine if the infested were like Crawlers, able to scale walls, hop over things, and were quick enough that firing at them was like firing at bugs flying around, instead of now where they casually lope around at a medium speed right at players.

 

Imagine if enemies in Warframe actually had the ability to split up, flank, and or even make the cognitive decision to go after high priority targets. Enemies realizing "hmm the Vauban on the team is the one killing most of us, lets all focus on him".

 

Imagine if the Grineer with riot shields actually used their shields to help their own squad, protecting heavy units, as opposed to now where they are just a casual unit that dies the moment you have any punch-through on your gun.

 

It would be so fantastic.

Real ai would make this game so good you wouldn't even care about the grind.

That why killing floor succeeds.

The ever-present challenge and chaos makes it fun, even if you dont have the dosh for the best weapons.

Warframe only ever occasionally has this feeling and usually relating more to frame powers instead of guns.

[Gordyne]

^

 

Exactly, but for this to happen, warframe needs to change from, more enemies less depth to less enemies more depth.

 

Or at least tweak existing enemy behavior to make us think and consider how to deal with them.

 

Even left 4 dead has more depth with enemies that force you to re-organize your squad.

 

Here are some comparisons:

 

Warframe - 95% of enemies just shoot at you with different weapons, some with God's accuracy to give us the false sense of challenge.

 

Some Killing Floor enemies:

 

Clot: Slow weak moving zombie, dies in a few hits BUT if you don't kill them at a decent pace they grab you and don't let you walk, so stronger monsters cut you in half.

 

That's their objective, to stop you from moving and distract you.

 

Crawler: Fast spidery creature, it can catch up to you and if you are hit their venom blurs your screen for a few seconds.

 

Objective: Make the player panic.

 

Siren: Screams dealing AOE damage to your group's Health, the closer ou are the higher the damage.

 

Objective: Chaos, her scream bypasses armor and damages health directly, forcing your squad to split if caught unprepared.

ps: I've seen sirens anihilating squads that weren't paying attention to their surroundings.

 

Flesh Pound: Tall, tough and angry, with pointy iron cuffs that spin to shred your flesh.

 

Objective: Kill one player, and he's very effective at it. When taking damage within short intervals he enter rage mode, speeding and killing any zombie in its way to kill who was shooting him. Also you need at least two heavy gunned player to put him down or, if the sniper on your squad is good he can put him down by himself, with the proper weapon.

 

And that's what enemies in warframe need, OBJECTIVE.

[hijinks_the_turtle]

This is well written, it shows all the problems I've been having with warframe.  I agree with everything you said, I actually raised an eyebrow when I found out how small the hitboxes of Ruk and other invulnerable bosses are and how crazy it is.  I don't feel too bad about the build costs, but lately it's been getting out of hand.  The syndicates are the worst bit, the grind for them is absolutely horrendous.