[Discussion] Cooldowns Vs. Energy Orbs (Again)

[contractkiller4]

In my opinion, neither a straight up cooldown or energy system is right for warframe.  I think there needs to be some sort of middle ground type where sitting around won't regain your energy but you can still use your other abilities without leaving you without a panic button of the ultimate.  Simple single target damage skills aren't used because energy is better spent on big groups that you will have trouble defeating.  But what is that situation doesn't come or you don't find any situation hard enough?  At that point, you haven't used many of your abilities because you were saving energy for a situation that may or may not come. 

 

I think there should be a system where being in combat (maybe damage or kills?) gives you energy to use, using abilities should not deprive you of other ones (like how using ice wave can leave you without enough energy for avalanche), and does not promote waiting.

 

One thing is was thinking of is separate bars for each ability.  They would not fill passively.  Damage or kills would refill all the bars a little.  Some skills would have larger bars.  Using a skill (like shock) would not drain the bar for another (like overload).

[Tsukinoki]

Calm down. The system of cooldowns shouldn't be separate from energy.

Plus, there could be a dyanmic system to the cooldown that would cause the cooldown to increase if constantly used.

Again, enough to stop spamming but not enough to be just another hinderance.

I am calm, Im just approaching this from reading the ops main topic point.

And it would be a hinderance to the lower level powers no matter what.

I use each warframes power as the situation dictates, does it land me in trouble when I dont conserve enough? Yes. Can I still use my powers reasonably often without energy syphon? Yes.

I can go through and see a group of enemies and nail each one with a shuriken nigh instantly. And use about the same energy as an ult because of streamline. Its a choice I have to make to my resource allocation.

No matter how dynamic you make the system it'll still lead to a lot of time waiting right outside a door, waiting for your cds to go away so you can go into the next room and pop all of them. Repeat this for every single room and you can see the issue this will cause with game pacing.

Furthermore, what about the other point I bring of of the CDs making an ability far to op because of very high damage/utility and very low cool down, or if the cool down goes along with its power/utility level how some abilities or combos would be far weaker.

[rhoenix]

I am calm, Im just approaching this from reading the ops main topic point.

And it would be a hinderance to the lower level powers no matter what.

I use each warframes power as the situation dictates, does it land me in trouble when I dont conserve enough? Yes. Can I still use my powers reasonably often without energy syphon? Yes.

I can go through and see a group of enemies and nail each one with a shuriken nigh instantly. And use about the same energy as an ult because of streamline. Its a choice I have to make to my resource allocation.

No matter how dynamic you make the system it'll still lead to a lot of time waiting right outside a door, waiting for your cds to go away so you can go into the next room and pop all of them. Repeat this for every single room and you can see the issue this will cause with game pacing.

Furthermore, what about the other point I bring of of the CDs making an ability far to op because of very high damage/utility and very low cool down, or if the cool down goes along with its power/utility level how some abilities or combos would be far weaker.

 

That's a good point, admittedly - there wouldn't be a way to counter that in the proposed cooldown system.  Well argued.  

 

However, this is alternatively a good argument under the current energy-based system to make Streamline and Flow less rare, so that one can use abilities more often on any given Warframe.

[ST_III]

I have both flow and streamline maxed out and still find that I'm forced to save energy for when I need them most.

I hear a lot of you (correct me if I'm wrong) saying that you're afraid of ults and powers being spammed, but that could just be fixed with balancing. Each power and each warframe could just have different cd to prevent spamming. (maybe spamming isn't even a bad thing for some powers?)

As for tactical depth and energy management that orbs seem to provide, orbs are dropped randomly and frankly random isn't reliable. I can't use a power and be certain that enemies are going to drop orbs and replenish my energy, especially if I'm using an ult or some other high energy consumption power. Energy siphon is reliable, but does not generate energy anywhere near fast enough in order to make up for the powers I would like to be using.

And as for hiding and waiting for the cd, this doesn't happen in me3, and I wouldn't expect it to happen in warframe. While your in cd, you would be using your gun and sword, creating a good balance between all the weapons in the game.

I just want to be able to use my powers and enjoy them, not in constant fear that I might pay for having used my power when I will need them later.

(The energy and cd combination does sound like a cool idea though)

Edited April 23, 2013 by ST_III

[Tsukinoki]

That's a good point, admittedly - there wouldn't be a way to counter that in the proposed cooldown system.  Well argued.  

However, this is alternatively a good argument under the current energy-based system to make Streamline and Flow less rare, so that one can use abilities more often on any given Warframe.

Honestly I think one of a few things should happen rather than move to a CD system:

A) Make streamline/flow more common

B) Make energy orbs restore a % of your energy instead of a flat 25 points.

Sure there are suggestions that I am probably missing, that I know I am missing, but I am bringing forwards two easy solutions to the issue at hand, that being energy efficency mods are too rare and that with the randomness of orbs its too easy to hit a long dry spot.

I think that if they do a combination of the two points here a lot of the energy issues would disappear without it being too overpowered depending on how they do it.

It would make it so that you can create a caster frame with high energy that gets more energy from the orbs than a non-caster, and it would make it so that the faced paced action would be maintained. It would also play more to the frames strengths and make them more distinct.

Someone proposed letting kills/damage add to your energy and I ask you this: What happens when you start to fall behind in kills/damage? You'll find that the others are able to use abilities more to deal more damage and kill more enemies to use abilities more...and you would be very hard pressed to ever keep up in a mechanic like that.

[rhoenix]

Tsukinoki, on 22 Apr 2013 - 6:45 PM, said:

Honestly I think one of a few things should happen rather than move to a CD system:

A) Make streamline/flow more common

B) Make energy orbs restore a % of your energy instead of a flat 25 points.

Sure there are suggestions that I am probably missing, that I know I am missing, but I am bringing forwards two easy solutions to the issue at hand, that being energy efficency mods are too rare and that with the randomness of orbs its too easy to hit a long dry spot.

I think that if they do a combination of the two points here a lot of the energy issues would disappear without it being too overpowered depending on how they do it.

It would make it so that you can create a caster frame with high energy that gets more energy from the orbs than a non-caster, and it would make it so that the faced paced action would be maintained. It would also play more to the frames strengths and make them more distinct.

Someone proposed letting kills/damage add to your energy and I ask you this: What happens when you start to fall behind in kills/damage? You'll find that the others are able to use abilities more to deal more damage and kill more enemies to use abilities more...and you would be very hard pressed to ever keep up in a mechanic like that.

Well, the experience for using a certain class of weapons is shared when in close proximity, so including kills/damage add to energy can then be spread to the party as well. This would allow the characters not making as many kills to still keep up with supportive abilities, allowing Warframes like the Trinity to focus more on abilities in battles.

[ST_III]

Someone proposed letting kills/damage add to your energy and I ask you this: What happens when you start to fall behind in kills/damage? You'll find that the others are able to use abilities more to deal more damage and kill more enemies to use abilities more...and you would be very hard pressed to ever keep up in a mechanic like that.

I find it hard to believe that everyone would be able to wipe out everyone so fast that you can't get any. And if they're that much better that they're managing to pull this off, I don't think being able to use your powers would help in getting kills that much anyways.

I just don't like the fact that orbs are unreliable. I want to be able to use powers and know that I'll be getting the energy back to use them again

[Tsoe]

ok i got it....

 

no energy syphon, no blue sphere,no cool down....

 

so what?

 

Raw Power ,

Saiya-jin Style

n     Press block without mooving and being hited to refill your energy

drain sp and rise energy at twice the rate of energy syphon

Edited April 23, 2013 by Tsoe

[Tsukinoki]

I find it hard to believe that everyone would be able to wipe out everyone so fast that you can't get any. And if they're that much better that they're managing to pull this off, I don't think being able to use your powers would help in getting kills that much anyways.

I just don't like the fact that orbs are unreliable. I want to be able to use powers and know that I'll be getting the energy back to use them again

Think of what a max damage modded hek would do in the terms of damage and kills compared to most other weapons.

You go into a lot of areas and you'll find that they dominate and allow you to quickly get a massive ammount of kills and damage regardless of the weapons used by allies.

Under that system players would become angry because they wouldn't be able to use their abilities at all, or nearly as often, as they can with the orbs.

And what about support frames such as trinity? In a system such as that her abilities would almost never come into play unless she was the one with the hek.

[Ronyn]

Someone proposed letting kills/damage add to your energy and I ask you this: What happens when you start to fall behind in kills/damage? You'll find that the others are able to use abilities more to deal more damage and kill more enemies to use abilities more...and you would be very hard pressed to ever keep up in a mechanic like that.

This is at least a valid concern. see below...

 

Think of what a max damage modded hek would do in the terms of damage and kills compared to most other weapons.

You go into a lot of areas and you'll find that they dominate and allow you to quickly get a massive ammount of kills and damage regardless of the weapons used by allies.

Under that system players would become angry because they wouldn't be able to use their abilities at all, or nearly as often, as they can with the orbs.

And what about support frames such as trinity? In a system such as that her abilities would almost never come into play unless she was the one with the hek.

1-if a weapon is already stronger than all others its already a balance problem that needs to be adressed.

2-if youre so good that you can dominate kills should you not be rewarded? If levels and enemy encounters are so poorly designed that one person can own waves of enemies is that not already an issue?

3-Assuming everything goes wrong, sure.

4-the idea should actually be combat actions in general, including healing,crowd control and genera; support, it shouldnt be damage/kills alone.

 

By any chance have you ever played DC universe online?

It successfully used a system much like what we are speaking of here.

[Tsukinoki]

By any chance have you ever played DC universe online?

It successfully used a system much like what we are speaking of here.

No I have not.

But please keep in mind that even though a system works for one game or a few, it may not work for all of them.

And again it could easily lead to some abilities being massively op compared to any others. Even more so than the current system.

Rhino goes inronskin and decides to melee/shoot everything while invulnerable. Under that system he would be regening energy/shortening cooldowns. He would have a much easier time of being invlunerable through an entire level than he does now.

Same logic to Loki's invisiblity or ashes smoke bomb.

[Ronyn]

No I have not.

But please keep in mind that even though a system works for one game or a few, it may not work for all of them.

Obviously. lol. I was just looking to see if youd had an experiance that I could use a point of reference.

Being an action focused, commonly 4-player co-op game there are enough similarities to gain some insight from.

But no, I'm not looking to transfer any system wholesale from one game to another. thats just silly.

 

And again it could easily lead to some abilities being massively op compared to any others. Even more so than the current system.

Rhino goes inronskin and decides to melee/shoot everything while invulnerable. Under that system he would be regening energy/shortening cooldowns. He would have a much easier time of being invlunerable through an entire level than he does now.

Same logic to Loki's invisiblity or ashes smoke bomb.

This is where people arent seeing the true value of the suggestion. Developer control.

 

Current system-

I hit iron skin and kill eevryone in the room.

Depending on luck I will get anywhere from one, to four or just plain zero energy orbs.

So I might get back more energy than I spent and I might get none at all.

Sometimes i will get extra energy and be OP, sometimes i will get none and I wont be..its inconsistant.

 

The suggested energy earn syste-

I hit iron skin and kill everyone in the room.

Depending on the energy gain per hit/kill I can gain a certain amount back.

But check this out-if DE notices that Iron skin is allowing the Rhino to gain too much energy back...

they can put a hard cap on how much energy can be gained while iron skin is active.

 

You see because the system is based on a solid cause and effect instead of luck, its much easier to modify when needed.

 

It will not lead to more OP abilities, or more UP abilities, it will lead to a better sense of refinement through the control of the variable.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ronyn

[ST_III]

 

Current system-

I hit iron skin and kill eevryone in the room.

Depending on luck I will get anywhere from one, to four or just plain zero energy orbs.

So I might get back more energy than I spent and I might get none at all.

Sometimes i will get extra energy and be OP, sometimes i will get none and I wont be..its inconsistant.

 

The suggested energy earn syste-

I hit iron skin and kill everyone in the room.

Depending on the energy gain per hit/kill I can gain a certain amount back.

But check this out-if DE notices that Iron skin is allowing the Rhino to gain too much energy back...

they can put a hard cap on how much energy can be gained while iron skin is active.

 

You see because the system is based on a solid cause and effect instead of luck, its much easier to modify when needed.

 

It will not lead to more OP abilities, or more UP abilities, it will lead to a better sense of refinement through the control of the variable.

Thankyou :)

but I still don't like the idea of being forced to kill people in order to regain the energy. Having a balanced cool down would prevent me from spamming iron skin, and it wouldn't force me to do things I may not be able to or want to do (such as if I were a non-offensive warframe forced to kill enemies to gain energy).

cool downs also solves the problem of other players stealing all the kills (which would also point to an imbalance in the game)

[Ronyn]

I still don't like the idea of being forced to kill people in order to regain the energy.

Like I said...

 

the idea should actually be combat actions in general, including healing,crowd control and genera; support, it shouldnt be damage/kills alone.

So all you need to actually do..is well...something. lol

As long as youre actually involved in the battle in some meaningful way you would gain energy.

 

 

As for cooldowns-

The problem with cooldowns is that they bring the focus of what move I do a bit away from tacticla freedom onto when its off CD.

The intention of warframes ability system is that you CAN choose what to rely on. I don't want to loose that.

If certain abilities are simply that much more valuable than others then we need some balancing.

[ST_III]

 

As for cooldowns-

The problem with cooldowns is that they bring the focus of what move I do a bit away from tacticla freedom onto when its off CD.

The intention of warframes ability system is that you CAN choose what to rely on. I don't want to loose that.

If certain abilities are simply that much more valuable than others then we need some balancing.

I'm not sure I understood what you said completely, but it sounds like you said  cd would trade tactical freedom for focusing/waiting on the cd.

When you go into a fight, you most likely will have all your powers available for you to use and choose as you see tactically fit.

and with the current system, you can't rely on getting energy. Although gaining energy from performing certain tasks is a bit more reliable, its still forcing the player to do what he/she may not want to. I don't want to have to milk every power I use to gain enough energy back.

[ST_III]

Actually, why don't they just let the player choose? If they want, they can have a mod that uses cd's, or energy orbs or something like that.

[Ronyn]

I'm not sure I understood what you said completely, but it sounds like you said  cd would trade tactical freedom for focusing/waiting on the cd.

When you go into a fight, you most likely will have all your powers available for you to use and choose as you see tactically fit.

But you cant use them as you see fit throughout the fight.

If I want to do two quick rhino charges in a row I cant becasue its on CD.

That is the kind of freedom Im talking about.

To be able to choose anything from blasting out a bunch of low cost powers really fast to high cost powers once or twice to some combonation in between.

 

and with the current system, you can't rely on getting energy. Although gaining energy from performing certain tasks is a bit more reliable, its still forcing the player to do what he/she may not want to.

I beleive that the player should be required to stay involved in the fight in one way or another.

As long as energy can be replensihed in a multitue of ways it should fit with your playstyle...

unless ones playstyle is to do nothing.

 

 I don't want to have to milk every power I use to gain enough energy back.

Ah I see the concern. rest assured, ths kind of thing is highly dependant on math.

Like are we talking about gaining 1 energy point per kill or 10? 20?

I'm sure that it should also be affected by the type of enemy killed.

 

I'm not going t pretend to know the sweet spot, I'll leave that to mathmaticians and testing...

but If we hit the right spot we should still see plenty of power use.

 

Not to mention the mod system still comes into play. Things that lower the power cost of your abilities would still be helpful and one could expect some kind of mod that could increase energy gain efficiency.

 

The point is not to make energy hard to come by. Its just to make it consistant. To make it something that will reward the player for being smart, using powers well, and killing efficiently. Drop the over reliance on luck but keep the freedom.

 

Dont get me wrong I understand the like of cooldowns. I'm not saying they would be terrible. I'm just trying to keep the freedom alive.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ronyn

[ST_III]

But you cant use them as you see fit throughout the fight.

If I want to do two quick rhino charges in a row I cant becasue its on CD.

That is the kind of freedom Im talking about.

To be able to choose anything from blasting out a bunch of low cost powers really fast to high cost powers once or twice to some combonation in between.

 

I guess you're right. Energy is just too hard to come by now and keeps us from using abilities when we want to. I don't know if the system you speak of will work while still giving players freedom to do whatever they want with the abilities, but it might :)

[Pro3Display]

imo, in before we balance energy/cd system we need to make useless skills useful (u know u use 1-2 skills per frame maybe more but its usually a personal interest) and move useful skills from lifesaver niche to the point of tactical interest(which ofc includes lifesaver situations but in rare cases)

 

atm there is almost no offensive skills- almost all skills used defensively or so

 

yeah ppl use slash dash to kill everything in a line but its kinda only skill used for engaging ingame

 

mb i'm not right at some point but overall the state of skill system is close to bad

 

p.s. i'm talking bout damaging skills- defensive skills are all working pretty good

 

just there is close to no situations where skills NEED to be used offensively

Edited April 23, 2013 by Pro3Display

[Woolytop]

I like where this thread is going.

I like the idea of making it so you regenerate energy as long as your actively doing something. Shooting enemies, hitting stuff with your swords, killing people, you could maybe even get a little bit for picking anything up, or opening boxes and breaking crates. Maybe make it so anything that gives you experience also gives you energy.

The only problem with making any major changes to the energy system, though, is that it's also going to necessitate a major change to one of the warframes: What's trinity supposed to do with her two if hitting stuff regens energy anyway? (not like trinity doesn't need a rework anyway).

[Ashgan9]

Just a thought but uhm why not pull a League of Legends and Design the different Warframes with different mechanics so some of them have Cooldowns while others have the current system and others have another mechanic that has a fast regen stat, maybe a rage buildup for attacking foes etc etc.

 

Edit: for those not familiar with LoL or League 90% if not all the first champs in league were mana based with I think the next type being just CD based although the game has both anyways mana and CD but besides the point.  Anyhow eventually they introduced Energy a fast regening mana and rage which seems to work different depending on the champ using it : /

Edited April 23, 2013 by Ashgan9

[LuckyStr_ke]

looking at most of the first skills  like venom, fireball, shock  are actual weaker then most weapons+mods....  so actually  making the cost of them 5 or 0 energie   would make sence. would be fun i think.

I mean all these great abilities and u barely using them...  rly sad

 

but if you got a Trinity in the group and 3-4 energiereg-artefacts the whole game feels diffrent!

 

suddenly you can use your abilities a lot and it makes a lot more fun!

[neKroMancer]

I think that balancing power usage with gun/melee is important. While many players think that there should be a 'caster' type of frame (Volt and Mag are top candidates for this type of gameplay), there should be a balance for this type of gameplay.

As long as casters can carry Hek and Gorgon, there is no need for using these powers, ever.

Many posters have been proposing energy vampire approach, However, there is a problem with the concept that heavy weapons deal much higher damage will create a quickly regenerating energy pool, making these weapons top contenders in the game. Effectively making players become a juggernaut, able to dish out large DPS from both weapon and power at the same time.

Balance will be broken and the game will be extremely easy. Resulting in bloated AI's durability to compensate the increase in player's capability.

I think there should be a weighting system to balance this approach. Heavy weapons generate less energy from damage compared to lighter weapons. Caster with heavy weapon will be able to deal good damage from weapon but will be able to cast less, while caster with lighter weapon will deal less damage from weapon but able to cast more often.

While doing so, DE have to redesign low energy direct damage powers to be an attractive choice compared to weapon.

Edited April 23, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Retroperspect]

May I pop in again?

 

okay what about the current system we have, and then slap a CD system ontop of it?

here's how I imagine that would work, you use a ability that's "off Cooldown", and it goes on cooldown, but then you need that ability again, and the cooldown is rather long, so you activate it again, but this time you cast it, and pay the energy cost to bypass the CD.

 

this would allow people to be able to cast thier abilities in moderation, yet there would still be energi management, for those hot situations where you REALLY need that ironskin and such.

 

and hey disruptors only going to force you to be considered of you long cooldown ability, unless they implement disruptors also activates the Cooldown of your abilities.... then I'll hate DE with a :)

[Pro3Display]

May I pop in again?

 

okay what about the current system we have, and then slap a CD system ontop of it?

here's how I imagine that would work, you use a ability that's "off Cooldown", and it goes on cooldown, but then you need that ability again, and the cooldown is rather long, so you activate it again, but this time you cast it, and pay the energy cost to bypass the CD.

 

this would allow people to be able to cast thier abilities in moderation, yet there would still be energi management, for those hot situations where you REALLY need that ironskin and such.

 

and hey disruptors only going to force you to be considered of you long cooldown ability, unless they implement disruptors also activates the Cooldown of your abilities.... then I'll hate DE with a :)

dunno if will work but this idea seem to be legit