De Doesn't Understand Viver

[Rydian]

[size=6]- Introduction[/size]
This thread is about the mission Viver, player actions within it, and DE's changes to the game that were specifically done to stop it.  I personally believe that DE does not understand why players were doing what they did, and as a result took incorrect actions to try to stop the behavior.



[size=6]- The Perceived Problem[/size]
A lot of players were farming missions (most notably Viver) and racking up many more kills than might happen in a normal mission in order to gain a lot of Syndicate Standing in a short amount of time with little to no work or problems.

This is notable because unlike running defense or survival missions, players were using specific Warframe and ability combinations to slow down mission progress while killing far more enemies than would normally be killed in a specific timespan.  The farming ability, as far as enemy kills, went far beyond what is normally done.  Players were literally earning enough Affinity to rank a weapon up to 30 multiple times in a single mission if it weren't for the Affinity cap.



[size=6]- DE's Response/Actions[/size]
DE approached what players were doing on Viver as if it was the usual "players found some lazy way to farm fast, let's tweak the specific tools and logic used to stop it" scenario.  DE nerfed various Warframes and abilities that were being used in the farming setup to prevent players from making such gains, in addition to changing the way that Interception missions worked.



[size=6]- The Downsides of DE's Actions[/size]
DE's actions do not touch the actual problem, they attack a symptom of the problem.

The changes DE has made to try to attack a symptom have negatively impacted various Warframes in normal situations by placing additional limits on the use of their abilities.  This makes the Warframes less attractive, which is especially bad because the Warframes affected (Mag, Excalibur, and Trinity) are not Warframes that were considered overpowered to begin with and aren't used that often.  In fact, it actually removes a buff that Excalibur had recently gotten.

In addition, the problem is not solved and more cases like this will pop up again and again.  The goal to farm much more Affinity than before still exists, and there will be more methods that pop up to do so.  Players have been able to use specific Warframe/skill combinations in specific scenarios to farm insane gains for a long time, it just was not worth it, there was no benefit to it.  There is now, and DE does not appear to understand why things have changed.



[size=6]- The Actual/Root Problem[/size]
The first step to solving a problem is to identify the problem.  Working back from the unwanted symptom (Viver farming), the problem is that DE has set an unreasonable goal for players in the form of Syndicate rewards.  Players were farming Viver (and will find other farm setups) in an attempt to reach the unreasonable goal that DE has set for them.

"Unreasonable", that's a hell of a claim for me to make, right?  Keep reading.

First, let's look at some common Affinity numbers, pre-U15.

• "Level 15 Exterminate" is 6,000.
  The average amount of Affinity you can expect for doing an Exterminate mission around that level.
  
• "T3 Exterminate" is 20,000.
  The average amount of Affinity you can expect for doing a Tower 3 Exterminate mission.
  
  
• "T3 Defense" is 150,000.
  The average amount of Affinity you can expect for doing a Tower 3 Defense mission until something good drops or the enemies scale too high for average players.
  
  
• "Long ODD" is 600,000.
  The average amount of Affinity you can expect for doing an Orokin Derelict Defense run until a weapon you are carrying has ranked up from 0 to 16 from the standard shared Affinity gain formula.
  
  
• "4-Forma Weapon" is 2,700,000.
  This is the amount of Affinity you need to gain in order to rank up a weapon to 30, apply 4 Forma on it, and rank it back up to 30 for use.
  
  
• "Usable Affinity Cap" is 3,600,000.
  This is, previously, the maximum amount of useful Affinity you could gain in a single mission.  That is, if you were to go into a mission with an unranked Warframe, primary weapon, secondary weapon, melee weapon, Sentinel, and Sentinel weapon.  In this mission, if you were to gain enough Affinity to rank all of that gear to rank 30 in one run, it would require this much Affinity to be distributed to you.

As you can see, most single missions, even longer defense runs with specific setups tended to stay below a certain amount of "farming".  This is generally due to being ineffective when your gear is rank 0.  Goals such as "4 Forma on a weapon" are generally done over a number of missions, for that example it would take an absolute minimum of 5 missions to achieve due to needing to be outside of a mission to apply a Forma.

Now let's look at Affinity gains and requirements in U15.

• "Viver" is 4,050,000.
  People have reported gaining 9000 standing in one mission.  This is the Affinity needed to gain that standing.
  
• "Obtain One Weapon Mod" is 43,200,000.
  This is the amount of Affinity you need to gain from the point you join a Syndicate to the point where you can purchase a single weapon mod.
  
  
• "Obtain One Warframe Mod" is 119,250,000.
  This is the amount of Affinity you need to gain from the point you join a Syndicate to the point where you can purchase a single Warframe mod.

Notice how much higher the numbers are?  Let me use those numbers for other examples.  If you were to equip a Warframe plus three weapons and try to gain enough Affinity to join a Syndicate and obtain a single syndicate mod, you would need enough Affinity to...

- Rank and use 11 Forma on your Warframe plus 23 Forma on each of your three weapons to obtain a single syndicate weapon mod.

- Rank and use 32 Forma on your Warframe plus 65 Forma on each of your three weapons to obtain a single syndicate Warframe mod.

TL;DR: Syndicate mod requirements are unreasonable, and that is why players are resorting to unreasonable methods to try to obtain them.  Until the want to gain extreme amounts and the ability to gain extreme amounts are corrected, people will continue to find farming methods.



[size=6]- Possible Solutions[/size]
- Greatly lower the standing needed for ranks and rewards.  This will bring the target in line with other game systems and help prevent such absurd farms from being seen as needed in the first place.

- Place an upper cap on the Standing gained per mission, perhaps 15 Warframe ranks worth (30 seems like a more uniform suggestion, but would still encourage longer, lazier missions(.  This will make it so that no such farms will be nearly effective as they were regardless of mission or frame combinations, and this change will not require negatively impacting Warframes and abilities for other scenarios.

- Tie Standing gain into more static values, such as the mission's difficulty (like credit rewards).  This is a more strict/simple version of the above solution, with the same goal.

[Somedude1000]

Well structured mate, +1

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

....sweet Lord..

Edited November 13, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Letter13]

This.

THIS is how you make feedback.

 

Thank you.

[notionphil]

This is the most constructive, analytical, logical assessment of the fundamental issues with both Syndicates and the reactionary change mentality that I could possibly imagine.

 

/signed

[Hybridon]

Just ran Pluto, 31-33 Exterminate mission:

 

 

Thats how much syndicate points I got, WITH A BOOSTER. Its insulting.

 

DE doesnt understand that long term goals, in games, cant be 4 month long goals, just to maybe get an item. If you run syndicate missions only, every day, its around 4 months to reach rank 5, without buying anything.

Please, somebody, list me a game that makes you play for 3-4 months to finally reach a level that you can get a single item?

Also, OP, the affinity you need to get to rank 5 is equal to a player going from mastery rank 0 to 16. For a single syndicate...

[RossRam]

I am RossRam, and I approve this topic.

[HAYABU5A]

very well done excellent work 

[2old4gamez]

Maybe making Mastery Rank a multiplier for any Rep earned would also help.

 

How?

 

 

1. Players who have already spent a LOT of hours grinding to get high Mastery don't need to spend another year grinding for the new content.

2. Gives Mastery beyond Rank 8 a use beside bragging rights.

 

 

meh?

 

Also, nice job OP. +1

Edited November 13, 2014 by 2old4gamez

[Shados]

Rydian, I'm glad you did the math, partly so I didn't have to but mostly because DE NEVER do.

[Hybridon]

Maybe making Mastery Rank a multiplier for any Rep earned would also help.

 

How?

 

 

1. Players who have already spent a LOT of hours grinding to get high Mastery don't need to spend another year grinding for the new content.

2. Gives Mastery beyond Rank 8 a use beside bragging rights.

 

 

meh?

 

I like it, dunno if its balanced.

 

Also De might end up just making it a 0.1 multiplier or something.

[HyokaChan]

Now all we have to do is pray and pray hard that DE doesn't skip this one topic...

[Rompido]

This.

THIS is how you make feedback.

 

Thank you.

 

 

many well thought out feedback's where given prior to this last update.

 

MANY

 

DE still did not use any of those ideas.

 

@OP well done man very well done. but I'm pretty sure no DE will use it.

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Take note of that post-U15 picture, DE. That's why we did it. That's why we played Viver.

[Shuuro]

*Shakes OP's hand*

 

...Thank you...

[democrator]

this is WOW! excellent work. I hope DE reads this. 

[2old4gamez]

I like it, dunno if its balanced.

 

Also De might end up just making it a 0.1 multiplier or something.

It's a germ of a nucleus of an unformed idea..

 

Perhaps Mastery Rank applied as bonus to gross % of rep gained.

 

I'll not comment further, the OP makes all the points worth making, this was just my 2C worth and hijacking threads is not my game plan.

[notionphil]

Wanted to highlight this:

 

Players have been able to use specific Warframe/skill combinations in specific scenarios to farm insane gains for a long time, it just was not worth it, there was no benefit to it.

 

There is now, and DE does not appear to understand why things have changed.

 

This was the reason forum-balancers spent the past 1.5 years ranting about balance, nerf spam, OP weapons etc.

 

We hoped at some point in time DE would actually introduce a goal worth fighting for, and all of the broken abilities and weapons would simply trivialize it and turn it into a grind fest, or a gear-check that required a specific frame/weapon loadout.

 

Fundamentals are so broken at this point in time that I don't even know what to suggest.

[HollowExistence]

Soon. Obfuscate affinity gain so it can't be calculated!

[Hybridon]

Just one last thing. This update, because of affinity tied to syndicate points made people actually look for ways to gain heaps of affinity, that always existed, but never where a goal.

It wasnt excals buff that made viver work the way it was working, you can achieve less rep, but still heaps, with other nuking frames and combos.

 

Now, even if they change the syndicate system, people have already found other "viver like combos".

[Nemorac]

Brilliantly put together, you have my +1 for sure.

[REDHOOOD]

Thanks OP!

[Fastwaffle]

if DE does not check this topic out i will be very sad

[low1991]

@OP well done man very well done. but I'm pretty sure no DE will use it.

DE might be using our idea, but bits & pieces of it... making it IN-Complete.

[Rompido]

DE might be using our idea, but bits & pieces of it... making it IN-Complete.

 

this last update clearly they did not.

 

I read lots of "please nerf viver" post prior this this update.

lots of them suggested changes in the map, spawn times, making it a survival instead. etc etc

 

 

none of those where used. they just nerfed 3 warfrmes. no one in all those "nerf viver" post said anything about nerfing warframes