Re-Buff The Snipers

[DrBorris]

So DE said on a Devstream that snipers are back on the buffing block. Fortunately this means that they admit that their last buff was not adequate.

 

Snipers are supposed to be consistent, they should be extremely predictable when used. All DE did was make them more dependent on crits by buffing it. And they did not give them access to a guaranteed crit, so you have a very unpredictable weapon. This… is not a sniper, and worse, they are just as not-as-good bows. I do not support giving snipers access to 100% critical chance, that is what bows are for. I support the opposite, I wish to give a massive nerf to their critical chance.

 

I envision snipers being pure physical damage (except Lanka with elemental damage), give them a massive buff to their physical damage so you can easily predict the outcome of a shot. I cannot explain exactly why it makes more sense for bows to be critical and snipers to be physical, it just seems better. I am not giving much of a “buff” to the weapons, just changing their stats away from critical based.

 

Now for my proposed buffs/nerfs.

(I am going to exclude Snipetron (vandal), you will be able to tell where I am going from Lanka, Vulkar, and Vectis.)

 

Here are Vectis’ current and proposed new stats.

Impact: 90 to 285

Puncture: 78.8 to 255

Slash: 56.3 to 105

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: I basically used a 3.2x multiplier to the original stats (I did some weird calculations to get that number). The DPS of the new stats is a bit higher than the current state (not accounting for critical in new stats because you should not depend on critical when using a sniper). Go ahead and do the math, but if you do so, account for the room it takes for critical mods and the effect of them on the old stats. I am going with a 10% crit so a crit can happen, but it is more luck than anything (and it will be glorious when it does)

 

Lanka’s

Electricity: 300 to 735

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: A 2.4x multiplier made sense for Lanka (do not ask me why it is less compared to Vectis, it just is). Same as Vectis, there is a very (even smaller) buff to damage not counting crits. If you want to do the math, take into account the same things I said for Vectis. Same reasons for crit as with Vectis.

 

Vulkar’s

Impact: 160 to 320

Puncture: 30 to 60

Slash: 10 to 20

Critical Chance: 20% to 15%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: The multiplier here is 2x, again, not exactly sure why they differ. Yes, I know, a 15% critical chance is worth a crit build normally. I see Vulkar as a slightly different play style though. A 15% critical chance does not make a crit build a necessity, you can go either way (consistency or slightly higher DPS). I cannot explain exactly why it makes sense, but I almost see Vulkar as a sniper-ish Latron. I think that this may be more significant of a buff, because of the higher critical chance it might make sense to bring the multiplier I used for damage to 1.9 or 1.8.

 

Okay, with this the DPS for snipers is meh at best. If someone blindly runs around shooting enemies without aiming for headshots, Snipers will not be very effective. But this is not how you use Snipers, if anything a Bow fits the pervious description better (nothing against bows). Snipers are made for headshots, thus I propose the thing that has been proposed may times, to give Snipers a 100% critical chance on headshots. This crit multiplier will be effected by Critical Damage mods, but there is no need for critical chance mods because it is 100%, no higher or lower. The only way to get a red crit would be to get a headshot and have the weapon naturally crit (with its low critical chance).

I am sure many will say now “but that makes Snipers OP.” My retort is simple, it takes time to line up headshots. The damage per second on paper does not mean that the actual damage is anywhere near that. The time taken to line up headshots is the balance. Hmmm, actually balancing weapons based on skill and not numbers, how intriguing.

 

One good thing did come out of the sniper buff DE did give, the status chance. Snipers are supposed to one-shot enemies. But if they fail to do so, they will get a nasty proc on them. It also opens up AOE statuses like gas and eleictical to compensate for the one target nature of snipers. So keeping this or maybe even giving a bit more of a buff (not neccisary though) would be a nice touch.

 

So, that is my two cents. I have trouble imagining DE making this kind of change (it seems the only way they know how to buff is to buff crit recently), but I can hope. Feedback would be appreciated, and if my math is completely off… sorry.

[Aeiroth]

How to buff sniper rifles in Warframe:

 

MAKE MAPS THAT THEY BENEFIT FROM.

 

LARGE MAPS.

 

HUGE MAPS.

 

MAPS MADE OF MANY MAPS THAT MAKES A PORTION OF THE MAP MAPS.

 

Sound good?

[Hybridon]

I like the idea of changing chance at high numbers for guaranteed high numbers and a small chance at even higher numbers.

 

Seems a legit idea.

[VentiGlondi]

I'm starting to doubt making crits occur at random, rather than when hitting weakspots, was a good idea.

[AM-Bunny]

Lanka should be more than a re-skinned bow.

 

I remember reading some topics that a lot of proposed changes to give it its own identity. One touch that I liked was, when you go into your scope, enemies light up (exactly like when you aim with your scanner). This would compliment its innate punch through too.

[Ketec]

I love sniperton vandal ( normal sniperton style sniper should be added - design that fits lore but similar mechanics).

 

Scoped snipers could have some kind of  target painting  - head or bio signature. allowing perhaps through door shots with + penetration or other similar bonus feature.

Boost the sniper aura - its still inferior to rifle amp. It needs Sniper unique bonus + damage ( 20% + penetration ?).

 

Their slow, single target firing is a huge penalty already - in a game that revolves around massive enemy spawns.

[Tyrian3k]

I personally don't use snipers, but wouldn't it be nice to have the scope show enemy weak spots like Banshee's Sonar ability? If not that, how about a big multiplier for scoring headshots? Maybe 5-10x regular damage instead of the regular 2x? It would reward accurate shooting.

[markus230]

Where is Snipetron/Snipetron Vandal?

[BluelitHalo]

I honestly think the only way Snipers can ever truly stand out is if they gave 'em all high punch-through range for collateral killing.  Otherwise they might as well remove the Sniper weapons altogether, because Bows are mechanically outclassing Snipers in every way.

[Ketec]

Where is Snipetron/Snipetron Vandal?

no longer available. it used to be the one of the first sniper weapons.

[markus230]

no longer available. it used to be the one of the first sniper weapons.

I know... I'm asking about list, there is only Vectis, Vulkar and Lanka. Snipetron is still in game

[GeneralArmchair]

How to buff sniper rifles in Warframe:

 

MAKE MAPS THAT THEY BENEFIT FROM.

 

LARGE MAPS.

 

HUGE MAPS.

 

MAPS MADE OF MANY MAPS THAT MAKES A PORTION OF THE MAP MAPS.

 

Sound good?

I strongly disagree. Sniper rifles may perform well at long range, but they do not need distance to shine. They just need to be a reliable means of killing enemies that you can depend on to dispatch a target when you need it to.

Look at one of the most notorious sniper rifles in gaming history, Counter strike's AWP. The AWP did not require extreme ranges to excel. In fact it preformed exceptionally well in close quarters. It was a weapon of choice for many players because you could depend on it to always kill your target as long as your aim was true. Random chance was removed from the equation entirely. If you failed to kill your target, all you could blame was your own skill.

[DrBorris]

Where is Snipetron/Snipetron Vandal?

I am all for the return of Snipetron (Vandal). The only reason I did not make up stats for those two weapons is because I am lazy. You can get the idea of how I would buff Snipetron (Vandal) from how I buffed the other snipers. If you would really like me to do my fancy math to get some numbers, I guess i could. 

 

 

On a side note, all they need to do to re-introduce Snipetron is to change its bullet into a "charged particle capable of reaching high speed" and make it blue (exact same mechanics though). Then give Lanka a new model because the current one does not fit how Lanka works.

 

 

I'm starting to doubt making crits occur at random, rather than when hitting weakspots, was a good idea.

The random crits works for other weapons, but Snipers are all about precision and consistency. Thus, random does not make sense.

 

 

I honestly think the only way Snipers can ever truly stand out is if they gave 'em all high punch-through range for collateral killing.  Otherwise they might as well remove the Sniper weapons altogether, because Bows are mechanically outclassing Snipers in every way.

With this buff, Snipers would be capable of being the highest damage output weapons in the game. The balance for that is that skill is required to obtain that high DPS. The separates them from Bows.

 

 

I personally don't use snipers, but wouldn't it be nice to have the scope show enemy weak spots like Banshee's Sonar ability? If not that, how about a big multiplier for scoring headshots? Maybe 5-10x regular damage instead of the regular 2x? It would reward accurate shooting.

That... is exactly what i said pretty much. Weak spots don't really need to be shown because it is obvious that where the head is, maybe having the scope turn red when on a enemy and green when on a weak spot if a change in that direction is really thought to be necessary.

 

With un-modded critical damage, snipers would be getting 8x damage on head shots. 2x for the head shot, 2x for the crit, and 2x because it was a head shot and a crit (a mechanic already in the game).

 

 

Lanka should be more than a re-skinned bow.

 

I remember reading some topics that a lot of proposed changes to give it its own identity. One touch that I liked was, when you go into your scope, enemies light up (exactly like when you aim with your scanner). This would compliment its innate punch through too.

For Lanka, yes. Lanka is a special sniper, its niche is punch through. Thus, I really hope DE puts in a change like this for just Lanka when snipers get their deserved buff.

[markus230]

I am all for the return of Snipetron (Vandal). The only reason I did not make up stats for those two weapons is because I am lazy. You can get the idea of how I would buff Snipetron (Vandal) from how I buffed the other snipers. If you would really like me to do my fancy math to get some numbers, I guess i could. 

 

 

On a side note, all they need to do to re-introduce Snipetron is to change its bullet into a "charged particle capable of reaching high speed" and make it blue (exact same mechanics though). Then give Lanka a new model because the current one does not fit how Lanka works.

Snipetron was removed due to Lore, Corpus making energy weapons and Snipetron is a normal bullet weapon. (I know, Braton is Corpus but... DE logic)

[DrBorris]

Snipetron was removed due to Lore, Corpus making energy weapons and Snipetron is a normal bullet weapon. (I know, Braton is Corpus but... DE logic)

That is why I recommended the easy changes I did. All DE would need to do is rewrite the description to "Snipetron is a Corpus sniper that uses a unique firing chamber that propels charged particles at extreme speed" and make the color of the current bullet be effected by energy color (with a default of blue). So basically, it now is an energy weapon with the exact same characteristics. Changing Lanka's model would be the next step because Lanka's model currently does not really fit the description.

[Tyrian3k]

That... is exactly what i said pretty much. Weak spots don't really need to be shown because it is obvious that where the head is, maybe having the scope turn red when on a enemy and green when on a weak spot if a change in that direction is really thought to be necessary.

 

With un-modded critical damage, snipers would be getting 8x damage on head shots. 2x for the head shot, 2x for the crit, and 2x because it was a head shot and a crit (a mechanic already in the game).

 

 

 

I'd still say that heads are easier to track if they are highlighted. Just shoot the glowy thingys and pop them.

 

With the headshot damage I was referring to a non-critical headshot. Sniper rifles are supposed to take out large enemies better than any other weapon, so I was thinking that they could do e.g. 5x damage with a regular headshot and 20x with a critical.

Another option would be to make them devastating crit weapons by turning every headshot into a red crit automatically in addition to the 4x headshot bonus.

 

 

 

Snipetron was removed due to Lore, Corpus making energy weapons and Snipetron is a normal bullet weapon. (I know, Braton is Corpus but... DE logic)

 

Braton is a Tenno weapon, not a Corpus weapon. It has a Prime version, remember?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Tyrian3k

[GeneralArmchair]

That is why I recommended the easy changes I did. All DE would need to do is rewrite the description to "Snipetron is a Corpus sniper that uses a unique firing chamber that propels charged particles at extreme speed" and make the color of the current bullet be effected by energy color (with a default of blue). So basically, it now is an energy weapon with the exact same characteristics. Changing Lanka's model would be the next step because Lanka's model currently does not really fit the description.

they don't even need to do that. They can just say that the snipetron is an outdated corpus sniper rifles that has been retired from corpus arsenals but surplus units are sold on the open market. Kind of like Russia their infinite supply of mosin nagant rifles left over from the world War era.

I'd still say that heads are easier to track if they are highlighted. Just shoot the glowy thingys and pop them. With the headshot damage I was referring to a non-critical headshot. Sniper rifles are supposed to take out large enemies better than any other weapon, so I was thinking that they could do e.g. 5x damage with a regular headshot and 20x with a critical.Another option would be to make them devastating crit weapons by turning every headshot into a red crit automatically in addition to the 4x headshot bonus. Braton is a Tenno weapon, not a Corpus weapon. It has a Prime version, remember?

wrong. The Braton and mk1 Braton are cheap knockoff copies of the Braton prime that the corpus have been mass producing. You can tell by the corpus lettering on the side. The corpus even used them among their front line troops before it was retired in favor of the dera. Edited December 19, 2014 by GeneralArmchair

[NullCurrent]

The problem I see here is that you are not taking the crit multiplier on the head into account, this will make snipers severely crippled with such a crit nerf. Let's say the sniper has a Vital Sense on, then in most cases the damage multiplier will be:

 

normal damage * 4.4 * 4 = normal damage * 17,6

 

So if you want to make snipers physical damage without crit, then you can't just buff them with such a small number as a multiplier of 3. They need a multiplier much closer to 10 at least if you completely remove the ability to use crits. Snipers are precision weapons, to bodyshot with them is of no use and if you are not headshotting with them when the additional damage is needed you're doing something wrong.

 

So essentially what this suggestion will do is to make Lanka a realy weak kind of opticor (higher MR on the Lanka, does not make sense), and the rest of the snipers to actually not have that reward for headshotting and their damage will actually end up being pretty bad. This is all because you are completely removing the crit. If the snipers had some other reward for precision which increases the damage to compareable levels, then removing crit could be a decent thing to do. But as it looks now removing the crit is too much of a nerf on the snipers, despite the base-damage buff.

Edited December 19, 2014 by NullCurrent

[GeneralArmchair]

The problem I see here is that you are not taking the crit multiplier on the head into account, this will make snipers severely crippled with such a crit nerf. Let's say the sniper has a Vital Sense on, then in most cases the damage multiplier will be:

normal damage * 4.4 * 4 = normal damage * 17,6

So if you want to make snipers physical damage without crit, then you can't just buff them with such a small number as a multiplier of 3. They need a multiplier much closer to 10 at least if you completely remove the ability to use crits. Snipers are precision weapons, to bodyshot with them is of no use and if you are not headshotting with them when the additional damage is needed you're doing something wrong.

So essentially what this suggestion will do is to make Lanka a realy weak kind of opticor (higher MR on the Lanka, does not make sense), and the rest of the snipers to actually not have that reward for headshotting and their damage will actually end up being pretty bad. This is all because you are completely removing the crit. If the snipers had some other reward for precision which increases the damage to compareable levels, then removing crit could be a decent thing to do. But as it looks now removing the crit is too much of a nerf on the snipers, despite the base-damage buff.

How about making sniper rifles incapable of getting random crits but give them guaranteed crits on headshots

Edited December 19, 2014 by GeneralArmchair

[NullCurrent]

How about making sniper rifles incapable of getting random crits but give them guaranteed crits on headshots

 

That has been a recurring suggestion. I think that suggestion is the best I have seen for the last year of sniper-buff talks.

 

I wouldn't mind keeping the current crit chance while adding the guaranteed yellow on headshot, as long as there is no chance to actually red-crit on headshot (that would be too OP, considering that snipers hit harder than bows). This will allow people to keep the current mechanic if they want, but if they feel confident they can remove Point Strike and add another damage-increasing mod if they feel confident in headshotting.

 

That is pretty much the only buff which snipers requires in my opinion.

[Archistopheles]

I'd love to see them as the Niche way to kill Nullifiers by giving snipers a shield-bipass (pve only).

I'd like to see them not share ammo with launcher secondaries.

I want to see them get a buff to their effective KPM (Kills Per Minute). More crit and more damage is always nice, but faster reload, less recoil, and larger clipazines is what I want (same for shotguns).

[Thural]

Braton is a Tenno weapon, not a Corpus weapon. It has a Prime version, remember?

"The Braton is a cheap production assault rifle manufactured by the Corpus" - Braton wiki page

Edited December 19, 2014 by Thural

[DrBorris]

I'd still say that heads are easier to track if they are highlighted. Just shoot the glowy thingys and pop them.

 

With the headshot damage I was referring to a non-critical headshot. Sniper rifles are supposed to take out large enemies better than any other weapon, so I was thinking that they could do e.g. 5x damage with a regular headshot and 20x with a critical.

Another option would be to make them devastating crit weapons by turning every headshot into a red crit automatically in addition to the 4x headshot bonus.

Ummm, again, that is exactly what i said. In the OP I thought i made clear that a head-shot has a guaranteed crit. This means an un-modded sniper would get 8x damage on a head-shot consistently. If someone puts on Vital sense, it would be 4.4x times the 4x head-shot crit multiplier for a 17.6x multiplier. Now, there is still that base crit chance that would make a red crit if RNG was in your favor. This would make you damage be 16x for a un-modded head-shot and 35.2x with just Vital Sense equipped. I guess I did not make that clear in the OP.

 

 

The problem I see here is that you are not taking the crit multiplier on the head into account, this will make snipers severely crippled with such a crit nerf. Let's say the sniper has a Vital Sense on, then in most cases the damage multiplier will be:

 

normal damage * 4.4 * 4 = normal damage * 17,6

 

So if you want to make snipers physical damage without crit, then you can't just buff them with such a small number as a multiplier of 3. They need a multiplier much closer to 10 at least if you completely remove the ability to use crits. Snipers are precision weapons, to bodyshot with them is of no use and if you are not headshotting with them when the additional damage is needed you're doing something wrong.

 

So essentially what this suggestion will do is to make Lanka a realy weak kind of opticor (higher MR on the Lanka, does not make sense), and the rest of the snipers to actually not have that reward for headshotting and their damage will actually end up being pretty bad. This is all because you are completely removing the crit. If the snipers had some other reward for precision which increases the damage to compareable levels, then removing crit could be a decent thing to do. But as it looks now removing the crit is too much of a nerf on the snipers, despite the base-damage buff.

and

How about making sniper rifles incapable of getting random crits but give them guaranteed crits on headshots

This is when i hate the Forums. I am normally pretty passive but two people not reading the entire post is too much. To comment on these two responses, I will directly Quote the OP. I specifically addressed head shot crits by adding the part below, thanks for playing.

 

 

Okay, with this the DPS for snipers is meh at best. If someone blindly runs around shooting enemies without aiming for headshots, Snipers will not be very effective. But this is not how you use Snipers, if anything a Bow fits the pervious description better (nothing against bows). Snipers are made for headshots, thus I propose the thing that has been proposed may times, to give Snipers a 100% critical chance on headshots. This crit multiplier will be effected by Critical Damage mods, but there is no need for critical chance mods because it is 100%, no higher or lower. The only way to get a red crit would be to get a headshot and have the weapon naturally crit (with its low critical chance).

I am sure many will say now “but that makes Snipers OP.” My retort is simple, it takes time to line up headshots. The damage per second on paper does not mean that the actual damage is anywhere near that. The time taken to line up headshots is the balance. Hmmm, actually balancing weapons based on skill and not numbers, how intriguing.

[MotherofHermes]

I have a topic on snipers also being able to break through nullifier shields that i talk about here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/368309-sniper-buff-nullifier-bypass-special/page-2

 

Regarding your topic: i believe that consistency outside of crit makes a lot of sense for snipers as the damage should not be random but mostly based on whether or not you are hitting headshots (the usual mark of good/bad snipers in games such as these). Innate punchthrough should be made standard as it makes a lot more sense for a bullet from a long barrel to go through stuff then a bow does. Until then I'll keep using mods to do it for me. 

[MrEpical]

So DE said on a Devstream that snipers are back on the buffing block. Fortunately this means that they admit that their last buff was not adequate.

 

Snipers are supposed to be consistent, they should be extremely predictable when used. All DE did was make them more dependent on crits by buffing it. And they did not give them access to a guaranteed crit, so you have a very unpredictable weapon. This… is not a sniper, and worse, they are just as not-as-good bows. I do not support giving snipers access to 100% critical chance, that is what bows are for. I support the opposite, I wish to give a massive nerf to their critical chance.

 

I envision snipers being pure physical damage (except Lanka with elemental damage), give them a massive buff to their physical damage so you can easily predict the outcome of a shot. I cannot explain exactly why it makes more sense for bows to be critical and snipers to be physical, it just seems better. I am not giving much of a “buff” to the weapons, just changing their stats away from critical based.

 

Now for my proposed buffs/nerfs.

(I am going to exclude Snipetron (vandal), you will be able to tell where I am going from Lanka, Vulkar, and Vectis.)

 

Here are Vectis’ current and proposed new stats.

Impact: 90 to 285

Puncture: 78.8 to 255

Slash: 56.3 to 105

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: I basically used a 3.2x multiplier to the original stats (I did some weird calculations to get that number). The DPS of the new stats is a bit higher than the current state (not accounting for critical in new stats because you should not depend on critical when using a sniper). Go ahead and do the math, but if you do so, account for the room it takes for critical mods and the effect of them on the old stats. I am going with a 10% crit so a crit can happen, but it is more luck than anything (and it will be glorious when it does)

 

Lanka’s

Electricity: 300 to 735

Critical Chance: 25% to 10%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: A 2.4x multiplier made sense for Lanka (do not ask me why it is less compared to Vectis, it just is). Same as Vectis, there is a very (even smaller) buff to damage not counting crits. If you want to do the math, take into account the same things I said for Vectis. Same reasons for crit as with Vectis.

 

Vulkar’s

Impact: 160 to 320

Puncture: 30 to 60

Slash: 10 to 20

Critical Chance: 20% to 15%

Critical Multiplier: 2.0x to 2.0x

Explanation: The multiplier here is 2x, again, not exactly sure why they differ. Yes, I know, a 15% critical chance is worth a crit build normally. I see Vulkar as a slightly different play style though. A 15% critical chance does not make a crit build a necessity, you can go either way (consistency or slightly higher DPS). I cannot explain exactly why it makes sense, but I almost see Vulkar as a sniper-ish Latron. I think that this may be more significant of a buff, because of the higher critical chance it might make sense to bring the multiplier I used for damage to 1.9 or 1.8.

 

Okay, with this the DPS for snipers is meh at best. If someone blindly runs around shooting enemies without aiming for headshots, Snipers will not be very effective. But this is not how you use Snipers, if anything a Bow fits the pervious description better (nothing against bows). Snipers are made for headshots, thus I propose the thing that has been proposed may times, to give Snipers a 100% critical chance on headshots. This crit multiplier will be effected by Critical Damage mods, but there is no need for critical chance mods because it is 100%, no higher or lower. The only way to get a red crit would be to get a headshot and have the weapon naturally crit (with its low critical chance).

I am sure many will say now “but that makes Snipers OP.” My retort is simple, it takes time to line up headshots. The damage per second on paper does not mean that the actual damage is anywhere near that. The time taken to line up headshots is the balance. Hmmm, actually balancing weapons based on skill and not numbers, how intriguing.

 

One good thing did come out of the sniper buff DE did give, the status chance. Snipers are supposed to one-shot enemies. But if they fail to do so, they will get a nasty proc on them. It also opens up AOE statuses like gas and eleictical to compensate for the one target nature of snipers. So keeping this or maybe even giving a bit more of a buff (not neccisary though) would be a nice touch.

 

So, that is my two cents. I have trouble imagining DE making this kind of change (it seems the only way they know how to buff is to buff crit recently), but I can hope. Feedback would be appreciated, and if my math is completely off… sorry.

NOOOO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY USE SNIPERS MAINLY VECTIS WILL BE HURT INCREDIBLY BY THIS DUE TO THE CRIT NERF I dont know how you use your snipers but I have no problem with soloing With my 2 formad vectis